Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[guuila]

I actually agree with you here. God does choose those who believe.

But note: that is different than "God does choose who will believe". Which the Bible doesn't teach, but is foundational in Calvinism's doctrine of election.

Yep. What you've just described is Arminian conditional election. God saves believers, but doesn't determine who will believe. Good job being an Arminian.

 

[guuila]

2 Timothy 2:10 ESV

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

What determines who is in this "elect" group Paul speaks of?

 

[RisingSpirit]

If it would lose the person their
salvation, it would be "conditional election".

Scripture teaches unconditional election.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yep. What you've just described is Arminian conditional election. God saves believers, but doesn't determine who will believe. Good job being an Arminian.

Uh, real BAD job of trying to figure out stuff, griff.

God doesn't have to "determine" who will believe. He's omniscient. But it seems you're not up to speed on that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Timothy 2:10 ESV

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

What determines who is in this "elect" group Paul speaks of?

What kind of crazy question is this??

It's not "what" determines who is in this group. God has always known who will be in this group.

Are you like most Calvinists who are speak of omniscience but really mean sovereignty?

 

[FreeGrace2]

If it would lose the person their
salvation, it would be "conditional election".

Scripture teaches unconditional election.

Correct. God guarantees that He will save everyone who believes. Even the stinkers who believe.

 

[guuila]

Uh, real BAD job of trying to figure out stuff, griff.

God doesn't have to "determine" who will believe. He's omniscient. But it seems you're not up to speed on that.

So you believe in conditional election.

 

[guuila]

What kind of crazy question is this??

It's not "what" determines who is in this group. God has always known who will be in this group.

Are you like most Calvinists who are speak of omniscience but really mean sovereignty?

So you believe a person becomes elect by believing?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you believe in conditional election.

Election is not about being chosen for salvation, griff. It is about being chosen for special privilege and service. Which applies to all 6 categories of election:

#1 Jesus Christ
#2 angels 2 Tim 5:21
#3 national Israel
#4 NT believers Eph 1:4 {note what they were chosen FOR}
#5 12 disciples, including Judas (Jn 6:70)
#6 Paul was chosen to go to the Gentiles Acts 9:15

Note that not one of these categories were chosen for salvation.

 

[guuila]

Election is not about being chosen for salvation, griff. It is about being chosen for special privilege and service. Which applies to all 6 categories of election:

#1 Jesus Christ
#2 angels 2 Tim 5:21
#3 national Israel
#4 NT believers Eph 1:4 {note what they were chosen FOR}
#5 12 disciples, including Judas (Jn 6:70)
#6 Paul was chosen to go to the Gentiles Acts 9:15
Note that not one of these categories were chosen for salvation.

Neat. You are an Arminian.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you believe a person becomes elect by believing?

Yes, and I can prove it.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

So, who are the "us"? You might say, "the elect, of course". But that makes no sense. That's basically saying that God chose the chosen. Real dumb.

The answer to who the "us" are in v.4 is answered in v.19
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

So, the "us" in v.4 are the same "us" in v.19; and that would be believers.

So, Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.

Nothing there about being chosen for salvation.

And thanks for the question that allows me to clear all this up for you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Neat. You are an Arminian.

Neat. You just don't pay any attention.

 

[guuila]

Neat. You just don't pay any attention.

Neat.

 

[guuila]

Neat. You just don't pay any attention.

2 Timothy 2:10 ESV

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

How did these people become elect?

 

[guuila]

Yes, and I can prove it.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

So, who are the "us"? You might say, "the elect, of course". But that makes no sense. That's basically saying that God chose the chosen. Real dumb.

The answer to who the "us" are in v.4 is answered in v.19
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

So, the "us" in v.4 are the same "us" in v.19; and that would be believers.

So, Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.

Nothing there about being chosen for salvation.

And thanks for the question that allows me to clear all this up for you.

Congrats. That is conditional election.

 

[Metal Minister]

Congrats. That is conditional election.

Bang head here:

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Timothy 2:10 ESV

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

How did these people become elect?

They will believe in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what I posted:

Yes, and I can prove it.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

So, who are the "us"? You might say, "the elect, of course". But that makes no sense. That's basically saying that God chose the chosen. Real dumb.

The answer to who the "us" are in v.4 is answered in v.19
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

So, the "us" in v.4 are the same "us" in v.19; and that would be believers.

So, Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.

Nothing there about being chosen for salvation.

And thanks for the question that allows me to clear all this up for you.

And this is what griff concluded:

Congrats. That is conditional election.

Your statement has no relevance to the verses nor explanation I gave. I proved that the chosen in Eph 1 were believers. To be chosen means to be a believer.

Sorry you weren't able to figure that out. But I tried. Maybe you should.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bang head here:

Great post! I think if griff follows your advice, but maybe a bit HARDER, what I posted might actually sink in!

 

[guuila]

They will believe in Christ.

That is conditional election.