Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[guuila]

I am a Calvinist. That's why I reject most of what you say. Anyone who "falls away" permanently was never saved, precisely because God keeps his promises.

God keeps his promises in FreeGrace2ism too, well, except that promise to conform us into the image of Christ. That whole sanctification thing is optional I guess.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've tried to stick to the OP. You abandoned our discussion. So I had to bring it back up.

If you look over the many posts of Calvinists, you will see that it is they who have abandoned the OP, just like what happened in my other thread, "Jesus Christ died for everyone". Seems that's the default mode when an OP can't be refuted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Really? I'll explain it for you then.

A gift, in your apparent limited definition, is something someone gives you that you can accept or reject.

So, this is a "limited definition" of a gift? I can't imagine yours. LOL

A wage is something you earn for working. However, some folks work for free. They volunteer and would reject payment for services.

Working for free is irrelevant for this discussion. Paul was specific about being paid for work done. I thought most believers understood that.

So if the gift can allegedly be rejected, why not also the wage?

I really don't care about any wage. The free gift isn't "refundable", if you think so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You do realize that there's no definition of omniscience in the bible, right?

So, what are you saying? That each of us can just make one up? Likewise, there is no "definition" of the Trinity either. So what? Make a point, please.

Or, better, please define what you mean by omniscience.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Really? That's the reason?

Reason for discipline? You really don't know? All parents understand discipline for their children.

If you aren't a parent, and your parents didn't actually "parent" you, then I understand why you ask these questions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did that ages ago.

Where?

That's a possibility. Another possibility is I've uncovered a part of your theology you have no idea how to deal with. I'm voting on the latter. Your theology allows for the possibility that AT LEAST ONE person who hates God will be in heaven. Must suck being an atheist who is forced into heaven right?

Really? I have "no idea", huh. Well, once again, thanks for the opportunity to correct the errors of Calvinists. Well, that was fun.

Anyway, why are you wasting time on extreme examples? Why can't you focus on the OP that you have failed to refute?

btw, a true atheist doesn't hate God, as you are claiming. In fact, they simply say, "there is no God". See Psa 14:1 and 53:1 for proof.

Those who claim to be atheists and do hate God actually prove that they DO believe that He exists. Just how bright is it to hate what doesn't exist? Think on these things. It'll do you some good. Maybe

 

[Hammster]

If you look over the many posts of Calvinists, you will see that it is they who have abandoned the OP, just like what happened in my other thread, "Jesus Christ died for everyone". Seems that's the default mode when an OP can't be refuted.

It's more because you interject so many errors that refuting them takes us away from the already refuted OP.

 

[Hammster]

So, this is a "limited definition" of a gift? I can't imagine yours. LOL


Working for free is irrelevant for this discussion. Paul was specific about being paid for work done. I thought most believers understood that.


I really don't care about any wage. The free gift isn't "refundable", if you think so.

So no answer? Yeah, that's what I thought.

For your info, a gift can be given and be effective even without someone receiving it. That's why regeneration is a gift.

 

[Hammster]

So, what are you saying? That each of us can just make one up? Likewise, there is no "definition" of the Trinity either. So what? Make a point, please.

Or, better, please define what you mean by omniscience.

I agree with your definition. I'm not arguing for open theism. I was just correcting your error. I thought you'd appreciate it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So why don't they have eternal life? Did Jesus waste his blood?

I've answered that many times, so you have no excuse for wasting your time repeating these questions. But I guess you have nothing else to do. Sad.

Here is what I said, which resulted in your comment here:

Jesus did purchase eternal life for everyone. Heb 2:9 and 9:12.

That said, apparently you are totally unfamiliar with HOW one receives it. They receive it by faith. Jn 6:40 and all the verses I gave you that you "claimed" to love. Yeah, right. Sure.

You're the one who limits the atonement.

Now, that's got to be one of the most "interesting" claims ever made by a Calvinist. LOL

I believe the atonement purchased my faith and repentance, and also secured my salvation infallibly. You don't believe the atonement purchased your repentance. Why are you limiting it like that?

Prove your claim that the atonement purchased repentance. Christ's death did secure salvation (eternal life) for everyone, but no one gets it apart from faith.

You limit the atonement to ONLY the chosen ones. Prove it with Scripture.



You claim people in hell had their sins paid for. So you're saying they had their sins paid for AND there's still sin on their record? Do you do logic at all bro?[/QUOTE]

 

[Hammster]

Reason for discipline? You really don't know? All parents understand discipline for their children.

If you aren't a parent, and your parents didn't actually "parent" you, then I understand why you ask these questions.

But according to your theology, He must not be a very good one. Heck, I would be a better parent than Him if your theology were correct.

 

[Hammster]

I'm sure that this was overlooked, even though it's relevant to the OP.

There is nothing in Scripture that says what Calvinism claims, such as:
#1 God chooses for salvation without unconditionally
#2 Christ died ONLY for the elect

So, why do you believe them?

One more time.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24 ESV)

^^^Calvinism

And for extra measure:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 ESV)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 I have a question:

You believe that unsaved man goes to Hell for not accepting the gift of eternal life.

I believe that because Rev 20:15 tells us WHY people are thrown into hell; for not having eternal life.

The Christian definition of Hell includes eternal torment. So why, in your theology, is man's default position Hell?

Because men are born unbelievers, and faith is only way to receive eternal life.

John 3:18,36
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Do you believe these verses? If you do, you shouldn't have any problem with my view.

Why not just let their lives cease when they die? Why the punishment?

You're asking a question that I can't answer. It's all God's plan. You're going to have to ask Him. Why don't you? Maybe He'll enlighten you some.

Surely you're not saying that man is to be eternally punished for not receiving a gift?

That's what the Bible indicates. You gots to have eternal life to live with God eternally, unless you want to argue against that. Which wouldn't be very intelligent, if you ask me.

 

[guuila]

Where?

Go back and read. I'm not going to waste my time doing your homework.

Anyway, why are you wasting time on extreme examples?

Considering the logical implications of a viewpoint is extreme? Well, okay. Maybe in your universe.

Why can't you focus on the OP that you have failed to refute?

Oh do you have a thread I'm not aware of?

btw, a true atheist doesn't hate God, as you are claiming. In fact, they simply say, "there is no God". See Psa 14:1 and 53:1 for proof.

Fine. How about a person who says, "Yes I believe in God, and I hate him." I know a guy like that. He used to profess to be a Christian. So God is going to force him into heaven now?

Those who claim to be atheists and do hate God actually prove that they DO believe that He exists. Just how bright is it to hate what doesn't exist? Think on these things. It'll do you some good. Maybe

You're so smart.

 

[guuila]

Christ's death did secure salvation (eternal life) for everyone, but no one gets it apart from faith.

Right. It potentially secured it. Now it's up to us to do our part! LOL fail.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God keeps his promises in FreeGrace2ism too, well, except that promise to conform us into the image of Christ.

I haven't seen much sanctification on this forum yet. In fact, the promise to conform believers to the image of His Son will be fulfilled in eternity, when we receive our resurrection bodies. I thought most believers knew that. I guess you're in the minority on that one.

That whole sanctification thing is optional I guess.

Optional as in not everyone lives a "set apart" life on earth. It's commanded, but there are rebellious children, a concept that seems foreign to Calvinists. But that only means you have no idea what "spiritual growth" even means.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's more because you interject so many errors that refuting them takes us away from the already refuted OP.

Please show me an "error" that I didn't correct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So no answer? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Thanks for the opporunity to correct a Calvinist. Which I love doing.

I gave you an answer. But you simply refuse to face it, apparently. Which is your free right.

For your info, a gift can be given and be effective even without someone receiving it. That's why regeneration is a gift.

While I won't argue that regeneration isn't a gift, I've never seen it described that way in Scripture. Eternal life IS described as a free gift.

Please explain how a gift that isn't received is "effective". First define what "be effective" means in this context. Second, explain how a gift not received does anything for the one who didn't receive it.

I think you're losing it. None of this makes any sense.

 

[guuila]

I haven't seen much sanctification on this forum yet.

Considering the fact that I have personally seen several people call you out for being snarky and condescending, you might really want to think about what you just said.

In fact, the promise to conform believers to the image of His Son will be fulfilled in eternity, when we receive our resurrection bodies. I thought most believers knew that. I guess you're in the minority on that one.

It will be fulfilled then, but it begins at the moment of regeneration.

Optional as in not everyone lives a "set apart" life on earth. It's commanded, but there are rebellious children, a concept that seems foreign to Calvinists. But that only means you have no idea what "spiritual growth" even means.

Cool story bro!

 

[Hammster]

I believe that because Rev 20:15 tells us WHY people are thrown into hell; for not having eternal life.

Sorta.

And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15 ESV)

It does say that those whose names aren't written in the book if life were thrown into the lake of fire. But it never says that their names are in there because they accepted a gift. That's the part you have somehow interjected into this scenario.