Apostle Paul

[thesunisout]

Romans 13

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

This is the Mary Martha thing. Martha was worried about many things .. but as Jesus said .. only one thing is necessary. that that thing is the one thing that the law is summed up by.

I think you're confused about the meaning of this verse. Love fulfills the law because if you love someone you will obey the law. You won't lie to them, cheat them etc. That doesn't mean there aren't any other commands. For example:

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

If you love God you will you obey His command to proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. If you love people you will want to preach the gospel to them. Yes, love is the framework, but if you're talking about some kind of syrupy emotionalism that isn't what love is. Love is an action word, and God tells us what love looks like, and what it doesn't look like. He tells us what it does, and what it doesn't do. Love obeys Gods command to be holy as He is holy. Love worships God in Spirit and in truth. Love rebukes his brother when he is in sin. Love does all of these things, and many more things, because love is obedient to God in all things, just as Jesus was:

Philippians 2:8

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

I notice you avoided my questions about your view of the word of God. Why is it do you think that when I brought up the holiness of God, you bring up a passage that people primarily use to try to prove that the Old Testament is wrong about God? Do you think our God isn't holy? I wonder if you've ever thought about the fact that God knew exactly what people would think when He put that passage in there. I wonder if you've ever considered that He knew it would be a stumbling block for people with wrongheaded ideas about Him. Maybe you should think twice before you judge the God of the Old Testament because He is the same God you say you love. God bless.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think you're confused. Love fulfills the law because if you love someone you will obey the law. You won't lie to them, cheat them etc. That doesn't mean there aren't any other commands. For example:

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

If you love God you will you obey His command to proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. If you love people you will want to preach the gospel to them. Yes, love is the framework, but if you're talking about some kind of syrupy emotionalism that isn't what love is. Love is an action word, and God tells us what love looks like, and what it doesn't look like. He tells us what it does, and what it doesn't do. Love obeys Gods command to be holy as He is holy. Love worships God in Spirit and in truth. Love rebukes his brother when he is in sin. Love does all of these things, and many more things, because love is obedient to God in all things, just as Jesus was:

Philippians 2:8

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

I notice you avoided my questions about your view of the word of God. Interesting that when I brought up the holiness of God, you bring up a passage that people primarily use to try to prove that the Old Testament is wrong about God. Do you think our God isn't holy? I wonder if you've ever thought the fact that God knew exactly what people would think when He put that passage in there. I wonder if you've ever considered that He knew it would be a stumbling block for people with wrongheaded ideas about Him. Maybe you should think twice before you judge the God of the Old Testament because He is the same God you say you love. God bless.

I think i just post as i do because i understand from a different premise and i generally don't think along those lines .

but responding to your original sentence of this post .. that's the point isn't it? Love does not harm their neighbour is really useful because it means you wont lie cheat steal murder etc . the point is keeping things simple so people can think for themselves in those "gray areas" . the kingdom belongs to little children remember .

 

[thesunisout]

I think i just post as i do because i understand from a different premise and i generally don't think along those lines .

but responding to your original sentence of this post .. that's the point isn't it? Love does not harm their neighbour is really useful because it means you wont lie cheat steal murder etc . the point is keeping things simple so people can think for themselves in those "gray areas" . the kingdom belongs to little children remember .

You should be up front about what you believe because having a conversation in this manner is like trying to nail jello to a wall. If we're both not willing to have an up front conversation where we both know where we're at and what we believe, then we're just blowing smoke and no one is being edified. If you don't think along these lines, which way do you think?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You should be up front about what you believe because having a conversation in this manner is like trying to nail jello to a wall. If we're both not willing to have an up front conversation where we both know where we're at and what we believe, then we're just blowing smoke and no one is being edified. If you don't think along these lines, which way do you think?

I tend to take the spirit's lead first before scripture . i let the scripture come back to remembrance . that's one of the main ones.

I understand the law is obsolete because when one is directed by love the law is not necessary, all laws came out of love. God also is love.

I find obedience to be of "law" orientation, and because being directed by the law means falling from grace .. i abstain from the appearance of evil . in that i like having the flow of God continually all the time .. being under the law in any of its forms cuts that off . also obedience teaching tends to be covetous humans trying to get people to obey them .. very little to do with God . so i tend to avoid "obedience" teachings as i am pretty "easy to entreat" to begin with .

I find God is grossly misunderstood in the Old testament, so when i read it, i need to allow God to re-write the passages according to what Jesus replaced in the types and shadows that were the manifestation back then. It changes a lot.

 

[Kemosabe]

thesunisout: Love is an action word...

I like that!!!

Mar 4:24 "And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given."

And the beauty of that is, when we "do" the Word of God, we put God under obligation to "do" something for us.

As a matter of fact, if we don't "do" the Word of God, not only will God not "do" for us, "from him shall be taken even that which he hath."

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

We can't ignore the "if", which requires action on our part.


.

 

[Kemosabe]

Michael Collum: because being directed by the law means falling from grace...

Before we jump to this conclusion let's see what "works of the law" is.


(works of the law given to Moses)
"If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD."
"And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:"


"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."


So, if we try to be "justified by the law", then we "are fallen from grace."

But, let's take a closer look; we couldn't do this if we wanted to, there's no Temple and we don't know who Aaron's sons are.


So, we can't nullify scriptures telling us to "do" something with Paul's statement referring to "works of the law."

Today, it's impossible to do "works of the law."

Besides, Jesus says; "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

I only see two options there, one with positive results, the other offers a very negative outcome.

 

[RDKirk]

Before we jump to this conclusion let's see what "works of the law" is.


(works of the law given to Moses)
"If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD."
"And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:"


"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."


So, if we try to be "justified by the law", then we "are fallen from grace."

But, let's take a closer look; we couldn't do this if we wanted to, there's no Temple and we don't know who Aaron's sons are.


So, we can't nullify scriptures telling us to "do" something with Paul's statement referring to "works of the law."

Today, it's impossible to do "works of the law."

Besides, Jesus says; "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

I only see two options there, one with positive results, the other offers a very negative outcome.

However, whenever Paul characterized "works of the law" by any particular act, he used circumcision, not sacrifice, as his example. Very few of the thousands of Hellenist Jews ever got to Jerusalem for sacrifices, but they were insisting on circumcision--which can be done anywhere.

But more broadly--and Paul took this meaning--"works of the law" was understood to mean dependence on procedure as the means to obligate God to salvation. By that understanding, "works of the law" can be any number of things.

 

[Kemosabe]

RDKirk: However, whenever Paul characterized "works of the law" by any particular act, he used circumcision, not sacrifice, as his example.

Why not just read the scripture?

In Galatians; "if I yet preach circumcision", "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years."

Here Paul is referring to the whole law; "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

RDKirk: But more broadly--and Paul took this meaning--"works of the law" was understood to mean dependence on procedure as the means to obligate God to salvation.

Why not just read the scripture?

If Paul is talking about "works of the law" then that's what he's talking about.

Not everywhere Paul uses the word, "works", is he referring to "works of the law"; "That they do good, that they be rich in good works..."

RDKirk: By that understanding, "works of the law" can be any number of things.

Well yea.

If we take text out of context and add our own interpretation to it, we can come up with anything.

We do know that Salvation is only through faith in Jesus and and not any kind of works of righteousness, but that doesn't change the scriptures where Paul is specifically speaking about "works of the law."

We can learn from what Paul is saying and apply it in a broader way, but there's no reason to presumptuously assume that Paul meant something other than what he said.

 

[RDKirk]

You're attempting to obfuscate a situation that is perfectly clear.

 

[dabro]

Ugh, Paul was a APostle and that is where it's at lol......Na, it's good to see each of you sharpen one another....

 

[Hizikyah]

Here is a quote from Shaul (called Paul) the most don't want to hear:

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

He also made clear that we are not justified by the Law as all fall short of the glory of Yahweh, however that dosen't mean we ignore the Law of our Creator as many do:
2 Timothy 4:3-4, "For the time will come when they
will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts they will heap to themselves teachers, who will tickle their ears; telling them what they want to hear. And they will turn away their ears from the truth, and will be turned to fables."

"will not endure sound doctrine," instead of me telling you what sound doctrine is why don't we let Shaul tell us, in his 1st letter to Timothy:
1 Timothy 1:8_10, "We know indeed that the Law is perfect, if one agrees with the Law, taking it to himself to use; Knowing this: That the Law is not only laid down for a righteous man, but also for the lawless and disobedient, for the unrighteous and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers; sodomites, catamites, for fornicators; sexually impure, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers; vowing oaths falsely, and all other things that are opposed to sound doctrine."

Not everything he said was against the 10 (or 9 to most) Commandments, however everything he said was against the Law of Yahweh.

Shaul's writings are great but as Kepha (Peter, I use real names bc things like this: Kepha's name was changed to Peter by Catholic Church, in Rome the took a statue of Jupiter and now call it Peter, you missed it didn't you Jupiter= Jew Peter, I will not use pagan names if I know) stated some twist them:
2 Kepha 3:15-16, "And recognize that the longsuffering of Yahweh our Savior is salvation; just as our beloved brother Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:4-5 & 5:2-3, "He who says: I know Him, but does
not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the llove of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

 

[ananda]

Yes. Paul is a Pharisee. Messiah said to avoid the Pharisees' teachings.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes. Paul is a Pharisee. Messiah said to avoid the Pharisees' teachings.

Actually, Jesus said to listen to what they say .. but not do as they do.

 

[RDKirk]

I've found that when someone attempts to separate Paul from Jesus, they have a hidden agenda of anti-church shenanigans.

 

[Kemosabe]

netzarim: Yes. Paul is a Pharisee. Messiah said to avoid the Pharisees' teachings.

Paul was personally called and commissioned by Jesus.

 

[PBA]

Netzarim
- Let's be accurate
"Saul" had been a Pharisee -
The "Converted Apostle Paul" was now a follower of the Risen Savior, who then stated that what he had counted gain was considered loss for the excellency of his believing in Christ.
Seek to grow in understanding and don't just try to argue a point. Be honest, and handle the scriptures with respect!

 

[ananda]

Actually, Jesus said to listen to what they say .. but not do as they do.

Actually, it's listen to what they say when they preach from Moses (the Torah), and do not listen to their anti-Torah traditions.

 

[ananda]

I've found that when someone attempts to separate Paul from Jesus, they have a hidden agenda of anti-church shenanigans.

I suggest someone can say the same about Joseph Smith!

 

[ananda]

Paul was personally called and commissioned by Jesus.

Which "Jesus"? (Mt 24:24)

 

[ananda]

Netzarim
- Let's be accurate
"Saul" had been a Pharisee -
The "Converted Apostle Paul" was now a follower of the Risen Savior, who then stated that what he had counted gain was considered loss for the excellency of his believing in Christ.
Seek to grow in understanding and don't just try to argue a point. Be honest, and handle the scriptures with respect!

Let's be accurate.

Paul said "I am a Pharisee" in Acts 23:6. εἰμι in Acts 23:6 is in the present indicative which clearly indicates that Paul undoubtedly meant "I was and continue to be a Pharisee". This statement by Paul was made well into his "Christian ministry".

So, I am being honest. Are you?