God is sovereign over human behaviour and decisions

[Charis kai Dunamis]

When the solution was provided is irrelevant. Why it was needed is relevant. And if God had not wanted sin to occur, it wouldn't have happened. You make it sound like God had to provide a solution since He knew it was inevitable.

Lapsarian views would be helpful here...

 

[Hammster]

Lapsarian views would be helpful here...

I'm a lapsarian. That's as far as I'm committed. (Hey, it worked for Boettner).

 

[Hammster]

But the point is, God didn't just know sin would happen and provide a "solution".

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

But the point is, God didn't just know sin would happen and provide a "solution".

...everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The judicial penalty for sin to suffer the full wrath of God... His righteousness demands it.

You're mixing emotions with justice. They don't mix. Not in our court system, and certainly not with God.

Jesus suffered the full wrath of God, that is, separation and death. Are you disagreeing with this concept?

Absolutely! Christ's death paid the judicial penalty for sin. God exacted justice, not wrath. Why do you think they are the same? God WILL exact His wrath during the tribulation, for sure.

You confuse the wrath of God with the justice of God. They aren't the same and they don't go together.

Would you really want your judge to get all emotional when you are being sentenced?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How does Hebrews 9:12 state that He purchased eternal life for everyone?

First, Heb 2:9 SAYS that Christ died for everyone. 9:12 says that He "obtained eternal redemption". What is a redemption but a purchase. It's also an exchange; His life for ours. His death purchased eternal life for ALL He died for, that being everyone.

But, only those who believe receive the gift. A very simple concept. And totally by grace. And no one is given any excuse for ending up in hell.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When the solution was provided is irrelevant.

You are wrong. It's relevant to establish the order.

Why it was needed is relevant. And if God had not wanted sin to occur, it wouldn't have happened.

Your point is irrelevant. God is omniscient. He always knew sin would occur in the environment of freedom of choice. And He ordained the solution before sin occurred. Excellent planning.

You make it sound like God had to provide a solution since He knew it was inevitable.

You mean it wasn't? <<shock>>

Why do you say that? But, I never said that God "had to" do anything, so don't put that false view on me please.

What God DID DO was because of what He wanted to do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But the point is, God didn't just know sin would happen and provide a "solution".

Really? Prove it.

The only other option here is that He created sin for His solution. Is that your position?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

You're mixing emotions with justice. They don't mix. Not in our court system, and certainly not with God.


Absolutely! Christ's death paid the judicial penalty for sin. God exacted justice, not wrath. Why do you think they are the same? God WILL exact His wrath during the tribulation, for sure.

You confuse the wrath of God with the justice of God. They aren't the same and they don't go together.

Would you really want your judge to get all emotional when you are being sentenced?

Again, you are arguing semantics (even though you are still wrong). Wrath is not an emotion. Wrath is the vindication of the righteousness of God being offended. It is not emotional, but a righteous vindication.

Besides this, it seems we agree. However you never answered my initial question regarding double payment. If Christ paid the penalty for sin fully, both for the elect and the reprobate, then it does not follow that the reprobate ought to suffer the penalty again.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

First, Heb 2:9 SAYS that Christ died for everyone. 9:12 says that He "obtained eternal redemption". What is a redemption but a purchase. It's also an exchange; His life for ours. His death purchased eternal life for ALL He died for, that being everyone.

But, only those who believe receive the gift. A very simple concept. And totally by grace. And no one is given any excuse for ending up in hell.

I find it ironic that you said we (Reformed) argue from inference, which is what you have just done. Hebrews 9:12 says he secured eternal redemption. It does not say for who. So to say that Hebrews 9:12 teaches eternal redemption for all people everywhere for all time (which seems to be universalism IMO) is incorrect.

Now Hebrews 2:9 says nothing of eternal redemption. Instead it says "He died for all". I might quote Aquinas in his commentary on Hebrews, who of course is the "champion" of the Roman Catholics:

"However, for all can be understood in two ways. Either so that it may be an accommodated distribution, namely, for all the predestined, for it is for these only that it has efficacy. Or absolutely for all as to sufficiency. For so far as concerns itself, it is sufficient for all."

In the following verses, 10-13, it is clear that the salvation which is perfected is for an elect people, not for all people. So I don't see how you find this as an effective argumentation.

 

[Hammster]

You are wrong. It's relevant to establish the order.


Your point is irrelevant. God is omniscient. He always knew sin would occur in the environment of freedom of choice. And He ordained the solution before sin occurred. Excellent planning.


You mean it wasn't? <<shock>>

Why do you say that? But, I never said that God "had to" do anything, so don't put that false view on me please.

What God DID DO was because of what He wanted to do.

Sin wasn't inevitable. To say it was makes God out to be puny.

If He hasn't created, no sin. If He hadn't given a law, no sin.

 

[Hammster]

Really? Prove it.

The only other option here is that He created sin for His solution. Is that your position?

He ordained it for a purpose. If all He did was react to it (provide a solution), then you are left with purposeless sin that God has no control over.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, you are arguing semantics (even though you are still wrong). Wrath is not an emotion. Wrath is the vindication of the righteousness of God being offended. It is not emotional, but a righteous vindication.

Unless you find a lexicon and look up the meaning of "wrath", there is no need for further discussion. Do you know what "displeasure" means?

Besides this, it seems we agree. However you never answered my initial question regarding double payment. If Christ paid the penalty for sin fully, both for the elect and the reprobate, then it does not follow that the reprobate ought to suffer the penalty again.

I have answered that. They AREN'T suffering the penalty again.

I'll lay it all out for you.

Christ paid the full penalty of sin for everyone.

His payment also purchased eternal life for everyone. A free gift.

The free gift of eternal life is received by faith in Christ. Jn 1:12 Gal 3:26

Those who are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) didn't receive eternal life.

There are only two "places" in eternity; either with God or apart from God in the lake of fire. Those who don't possess eternal life are not qualified to live with God eternally.

Now, please unpack this if you can to show me where I'm wrong.

To summarize, no one suffers for their sins. They suffer for having not obtained eternal life. And they have no excuse for not having eternal life.

btw, check out my thread "Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell" in the "debate with a Calvinist" folder.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I find it ironic that you said we (Reformed) argue from inference, which is what you have just done. Hebrews 9:12 says he secured eternal redemption. It does not say for who. So to say that Hebrews 9:12 teaches eternal redemption for all people everywhere for all time (which seems to be universalism IMO) is incorrect.

Now Hebrews 2:9 says nothing of eternal redemption. Instead it says "He died for all".

All you have to do is connect the dots, which shouldn't be all that difficult.

2:9 says He died for all, and 9:12 says He obtained eternal redemption. He certainly did obtain eternal redemption for those He died for.

btw, here's list of how actual Greek language scholars rendered "all" in 2:9
EVERYONE - 25
Common English Bible
Contemporary English Version
Easy-To-Read Version
ESV
ESV Anglicized
Expanded Bible
God’s Word
Good News Translation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Lexham English Bible
Mounce Reverse Interlinear NT
Names of God Bible
NASB
New Century Version
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLT
NRSV
NRSV anglicized
NRSV anglicized Catholic
NRSV Catholic
The Voice
World English Bible

EVERY ONE - 3
RSV
RSV Catholic
Young’s Literal Translation

EVERY MAN - 6
21st Century KJV
ASV
JB Phillips NT
Jubilee Bible 2000
KJV
Authorized KJV

EVERY INDIVIDUAL PERSON - 1
Amplified Bible

ALL HUMANITY - 1
Complete Jewish Bible

EVERY THING - 2
Darby Translation
Douay-Rheims1899 American Ed

ALL MEN - 2
1599 Geneva
Wycliffe

ON BEHALF OF ALL - 2
Knox Bible
Orthodox Jewish Bible

EVERY PERSON’S PLACE - 1
The Message

ALL OF US - 1
New Life Version

EVERY PERSON - 1
Worldwide English NT

It's clear to me that the vast majority of these scholars understood the writer to be saying that Christ died for everyone in humanity. Not one person less.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sin wasn't inevitable. To say it was makes God out to be puny.

How silly. God is omniscient, and has always known. And He certainly DID know that sin would come. But you can call it whatever you want.

If He hasn't created, no sin. If He hadn't given a law, no sin.

There you go again with your "iffy" theology.

I much prefer to stick with "what is", not "what if". The point is that He knew sin was coming. You want to disagree with that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

He ordained it for a purpose. If all He did was react to it (provide a solution), then you are left with purposeless sin that God has no control over.

Your word choice is certainly "interesting". Why would you think God would be 'reacting' to knowledge of what was coming? That's just odd.

Again, what do you mean by "He ordained it (sin) for a purpose"? Do you mean He permitted it to occur, or do you mean in a causal way?

Please clarify. It's so hard to pin you Calvinists down on what you really believe.

 

[Hammster]

How silly. God is omniscient, and has always known. And He certainly DID know that sin would come. But you can call it whatever you want.


There you go again with your "iffy" theology.

I much prefer to stick with "what is", not "what if". The point is that He knew sin was coming. You want to disagree with that?

It's not iffy. It's just demonstrating how it wasn't inevitable.

But let's try this. It's your contention that God provided the Cross as a solution to the sin issue that He knew would occur (because He's omniscient). Does that accurately reflect your position?

 

[Hammster]

Your word choice is certainly "interesting". Why would you think God would be 'reacting' to knowledge of what was coming? That's just odd.

Again, what do you mean by "He ordained it (sin) for a purpose"? Do you mean He permitted it to occur, or do you mean in a causal way?

Please clarify. It's so hard to pin you Calvinists down on what you really believe.

You're the one who said He provided a solution. What is that if it's not reacting?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

All you have to do is connect the dots, which shouldn't be all that difficult.

2:9 says He died for all, and 9:12 says He obtained eternal redemption. He certainly did obtain eternal redemption for those He died for.

btw, here's list of how actual Greek language scholars rendered "all" in 2:9
EVERYONE - 25
Common English Bible
Contemporary English Version
Easy-To-Read Version
ESV
ESV Anglicized
Expanded Bible
God’s Word
Good News Translation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Lexham English Bible
Mounce Reverse Interlinear NT
Names of God Bible
NASB
New Century Version
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLT
NRSV
NRSV anglicized
NRSV anglicized Catholic
NRSV Catholic
The Voice
World English Bible

EVERY ONE - 3
RSV
RSV Catholic
Young’s Literal Translation

EVERY MAN - 6
21st Century KJV
ASV
JB Phillips NT
Jubilee Bible 2000
KJV
Authorized KJV

EVERY INDIVIDUAL PERSON - 1
Amplified Bible

ALL HUMANITY - 1
Complete Jewish Bible

EVERY THING - 2
Darby Translation
Douay-Rheims1899 American Ed

ALL MEN - 2
1599 Geneva
Wycliffe

ON BEHALF OF ALL - 2
Knox Bible
Orthodox Jewish Bible

EVERY PERSON’S PLACE - 1
The Message

ALL OF US - 1
New Life Version

EVERY PERSON - 1
Worldwide English NT

It's clear to me that the vast majority of these scholars understood the writer to be saying that Christ died for everyone in humanity. Not one person less.

Are you just going to ignore the quote from Aquinas, who actually AGREES with you in a rejection of monergism, and yet denies what you are concluding about 2:9? The question is what &#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#8056;&#962; &#947;&#949;&#973;&#963;&#951;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#952;&#945;&#957;&#940;&#964;&#959;&#965; is describing contextually. To bring 9:12 over for no reason and read "eternal reception" in place of "tasted death for all men" is poor, poor exegesis. And besides, the fruition of your argument: if Christ is supposedly "securing eternal redemption" for every one who has ever lived, then it would lead to universalism... which of course is against the rules to espouse here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not iffy. It's just demonstrating how it wasn't inevitable.

You haven't demonstrated any such thing. So, instead of "inevitable", how about "guaranteed"? Is that better?

But let's try this. It's your contention that God provided the Cross as a solution to the sin issue that He knew would occur (because He's omniscient). Does that accurately reflect your position?

Exactly. If you disagree, please proceed.