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An atheists world

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createdtoworship

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No, free will doesn't exist in the presence of an all-seeing, all-knowing entity...

Besides which, I didn't say that a creator god MADE us do the wrong thing....I said it obviously constructed us in such a way that we are CAPABLE of doing the wrong thing.....if it hadn't wanted that to be part of our nature, it could have installed some form of 'firewall' in us to prevent us from 'sinning'.......it didn't, so it must have been content for its creation to be put in that position of being able to be tempted...




So you see, my premise holds firm...and then you have confirmed the rest of the argument which leads to the inescapable conclusion.......the god which you say we should worship is a cruel, sadistic beast which would use its creation as mere playthings.....


I am busy at the moment, but look up foreknowledge (election based on foreknowledge)

it may answer some questions
 
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RedRover

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Excuse me.....?? I'm not the one who claims that all the responsibilities for my 'sins' can be absolved by merely adopting a belief....!
I follow more along the Holiness tradition where we believe that to be saved you have to be a new creation in Christ and God requires us to live free from sin. So there is more then just belief involved. For example, the Bible says that when Jesus comes for His Bride she will be without spot, blemish or wrinkle.
 
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biggles53

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ok, so you have a question about the authenticity of lukes Gospel. So that would be changing the bars, and the subject of prophecy to a study in lower criticism.

So do you have questions, if you're honest...

For example, who wrote the gospel of Luke...?
 
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biggles53

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I follow more along the Holiness tradition where we believe that to be saved you have to be a new creation in Christ and God requires us to live free from sin. So there is more then just belief involved. For example, the Bible says that when Jesus comes for His Bride she will be without spot, blemish or wrinkle.

Whatever.....bottom line is that you have to adopt a particular belief in order to have your 'sins washed away'......

Whereas I choose to own mine......
 
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RedRover

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What was to stop the writer simply inventing the date that Jesus was supposed to enter Jerusalem, just so the prophecy would ring true...?
Jesus entered Jerusalem on one of the Hebrew Festivals. So the exact day is not the issue here. As far as the birth of Jesus: The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus tells us that Herod died shortly after an eclipse of the moon. Astronomers today can tell us when that eclipse was. So they use that information to determine when Jesus was born. When the wall was rebuilt is a lot more exact of a science then you seem to think. People then just as much as today were very style conscious. It was not unusual to throw away pottery just because it was out of style. So using the artifacts that they find in and around the wall, they can determine with a fair amount of accuracy when the wall was rebuilt. The people that study archeology are very meticulous about being able to date pottery and when it was made and where it was made. Also it is common to find seals that the people living at the time used on all of their correspondences. This is now the fourth time I have looked into this. Most all serious Bible students study this and they all come to the same conclusion that the dates are accurate. If it is not obvious to you then all that indicates is that you are NOT a serious student of the Bible. You simply have made no effort to look into this. This is not something we can do for you. If your at all serious then you need to do the research for yourself.
 
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RedRover

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Whatever.....bottom line is that you have to adopt a particular belief in order to have your 'sins washed away'......

Whereas I choose to own mine......
Only the Blood of Jesus can wash away our sins. I realize we live in a day and age when they want to remove those old hymns from the song book. I am not of that liberal tradition. When we say nothing but the Blood of Jesus we mean just that.

What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Refrain

Oh! precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

For my pardon, this I see,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
For my cleansing this my plea,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Refrain

Nothing can for sin atone,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
Naught of good that I have done,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Refrain

This is all my hope and peace,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
This is all my righteousness,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Refrain

Now by this I’ll overcome—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
Now by this I’ll reach my home—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Refrain

Glory! Glory! This I sing—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
All my praise for this I bring—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Refrain
 
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biggles53

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Jesus entered Jerusalem on one of the Hebrew Festivals. So the exact day is not the issue here. As far as the birth of Jesus: The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus tells us that Herod died shortly after an eclipse of the moon. Astronomers today can tell us when that eclipse was. So they use that information to determine when Jesus was born. When the wall was rebuilt is a lot more exact of a science then you seem to think. People then just as much as today were very style conscious. It was not unusual to throw away pottery just because it was out of style. So using the artifacts that they find in and around the wall, they can determine with a fair amount of accuracy when the wall was rebuilt. The people that study archeology are very meticulous about being able to date pottery and when it was made and where it was made. Also it is common to find seals that the people living at the time used on all of their correspondences. This is now the fourth time I have looked into this. Most all serious Bible students study this and they all come to the same conclusion that the dates are accurate. If it is not obvious to you then all that indicates is that you are NOT a serious student of the Bible. You simply have made no effort to look into this. This is not something we can do for you. If your at all serious then you need to do the research for yourself.

Outside of the Bible, what evidence exists that a) Jesus entered the city on that day, b) that he was born at the time you claim and c) that he even existed....!?
 
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createdtoworship

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Jesus entered Jerusalem on one of the Hebrew Festivals. So the exact day is not the issue here. As far as the birth of Jesus: The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus tells us that Herod died shortly after an eclipse of the moon. Astronomers today can tell us when that eclipse was. So they use that information to determine when Jesus was born. When the wall was rebuilt is a lot more exact of a science then you seem to think. People then just as much as today were very style conscious. It was not unusual to throw away pottery just because it was out of style. So using the artifacts that they find in and around the wall, they can determine with a fair amount of accuracy when the wall was rebuilt. The people that study archeology are very meticulous about being able to date pottery and when it was made and where it was made. Also it is common to find seals that the people living at the time used on all of their correspondences. This is now the fourth time I have looked into this. Most all serious Bible students study this and they all come to the same conclusion that the dates are accurate. If it is not obvious to you then all that indicates is that you are NOT a serious student of the Bible. You simply have made no effort to look into this. This is not something we can do for you. If your at all serious then you need to do the research for yourself.

good post
 
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biggles53

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Only the Blood of Jesus can wash away our sins.

So you claim......I do not share that belief. Moreover, I find the concept of vicarious redemption to be grossly immoral. No one can take responsibility for my actions other than me.....
 
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biggles53

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Now...back to the question that no believer wants to face.....

How can you describe a god as loving and kind and just when it judges its subjects for actions that it KNEW beforehand that would be taken, AND that it had designed those subjects so that they could be tempted into those very actions......!?
 
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createdtoworship

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createdtoworship

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Now...back to the question that no believer wants to face.....

How can you describe a god as loving and kind and just when it judges its subjects for actions that it KNEW beforehand that would be taken, AND that it had designed those subjects so that they could be tempted into those very actions......!?

I am aware of euthanasia, so are you,

are we responsible for it?

God being simply aware of it, doesn't mean He caused it.

allowing temptation is different than causing it.
 
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EternalDragon

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Now...back to the question that no believer wants to face.....

How can you describe a god as loving and kind and just when it judges its subjects for actions that it KNEW beforehand that would be taken, AND that it had designed those subjects so that they could be tempted into those very actions......!?

I knew before I had kids that they could come out deformed, missing fingers. I knew that as infants they could get into a pool and drown. They could contract a disease and die horribly. They could get into a car accident. Into drugs, shoot up a school, etc.

But I decided to have kids anyway for all the good things. ARE YOU CALLING ME UNLOVING, UNJUST AND UNKIND?!!?
 
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RedRover

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Outside of the Bible,
Are you listening at all? I just answered that question based on Science. If Jesus did not exist then you would still be lost in your sins and there would be no hope for restoration with God. Paul said if that were the case then eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you will die. We have our eternal hope in Glory. We believe this life is a test and we will receive our reward or punishment based on how well we do. You choose to believe you can do whatever you want to do and get away with it. In the very least your not going to get a passing grade because your not taking responsibility to learn the basics. People are so proud of their science grade but when it comes to religions character and integrity they tend not to do very well in those areas of study. You end up with people that are not well rounded and not very well balanced. If people want to be disfunctional they have that choice but they should not be surprised when they find out that there will be consequences for that.
 
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biggles53

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I am aware of euthanasia, so are you,

are we responsible for it?

Do you know exactly who will commit it and when..?

Were you responsible for designing us so that we could be tempted into committing it...?

God being simply aware of it, doesn't mean He caused it.

allowing temptation is different than causing it.

And nice try in leaving out the final ingredient.......knowing exactly how people will behave, designing them so that they will be tempted into bad behaviour and then judging them for those actions...!
 
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biggles53

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Are you listening at all? I just answered that question based on Science.

Errrr......no you didn't. You produced some evidence to show when Herod reigned. You produced NO evidence, outside of that claimed in the Bible, that Jesus was born at that time....!
 
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biggles53

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I knew before I had kids that they could come out deformed, missing fingers. I knew that as infants they could get into a pool and drown. They could contract a disease and die horribly. They could get into a car accident. Into drugs, shoot up a school, etc.


The operative word being "could".......the god which you say exists KNOWS EXACTLY what will befall each and every one of us, not a 'maybe', not a 'could', but everything down to the finest detail which will certainly occur....

But I decided to have kids anyway for all the good things. ARE YOU CALLING ME UNLOVING, UNJUST AND UNKIND?!!?

Again you dishonestly leave out parts of my argument (why do people so convinced that they are right so often resort to lying...?).......

If you had designed your own kids with those faults AND had then passed judgement on them for exhibiting those faults, KNOWING in advance that they would behave that way, then yes.....you would be the most cruel and sadistic beast one could imagine....!
 
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RedRover

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Errrr......no you didn't. You produced some evidence to show when Herod reigned. You produced NO evidence, outside of that claimed in the Bible, that Jesus was born at that time....!
That is absolute absurdity. Evidence is based on the testimony of two or three people. There is plenty enough people that give testimony that Jesus was born to hold up in any court of law anywhere. In some cases one persons testimony is enough. They will pay up to $600 and hour for an expert witness willing to testify in court. If they get $600 to put up with skeptics and scoffers in man's court how much more is God going to reward us for putting up with the skeptics and scoffers here on this board.
 
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biggles53

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That is absolute absurdity. Evidence is based on the testimony of two or three people. There is plenty enough people that give testimony that Jesus was born to hold up in any court of law anywhere. In some cases one persons testimony is enough. They will pay up to $600 and hour for an expert witness willing to testify in court. If they get $600 to put up with skeptics and scoffers in man's court how much more is God going to reward us for putting up with the skeptics and scoffers here on this board.

Name them.....
 
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EternalDragon

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The operative word being "could".......the god which you say exists KNOWS EXACTLY what will befall each and every one of us, not a 'maybe', not a 'could', but everything down to the finest detail which will certainly occur....



Again you dishonestly leave out parts of my argument (why do people so convinced that they are right so often resort to lying...?).......

If you had designed your own kids with those faults AND had then passed judgement on them for exhibiting those faults, KNOWING in advance that they would behave that way, then yes.....you would be the most cruel and sadistic beast one could imagine....!

But that's just it. Your interpretation of God is not the biblical one.

Again, my kids doing wrong or good are not faults. They are free choices. I would also forgive them should they come to me and merely ask. And even if I know what would befall them I would still have them, because not having them at all would be worse.
 
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