Are We an Unknowing Part of the Church of Laodecia

[Stryder06]

The Sabbath is part of the Law God gave Israel (the Torah), but so is the affixing of the mezuzah to the doorpost and the wearing of tzizit. God gave 613 commandments to Israel as part of the Covenant He made with them at Sinai.

Christians are not bound to observe the Torah. Period.

-CryptoLutheran

So you observe each and every of the 613 commandments? You wear tzizit? You observe kashrut? You're bris milah? When was the last time you made your wife leave the community and shut herself up during the period of her menstruation, and where did you acquire the pigeon to give as an offering? Have you ensured that your none of your clothing is of mixed fibers--that means no cotton polyester blends. You don't shave the pavot on the sides of your head do you?

If you are not willing to obey all of God's commandments given in the Torah, then you have no right to suggest we are at fault for not observing the Torah.

-CryptoLutheran

More excuses. The command to abstain from homosexual relations was given in the Torah. Are we bound by that? The commands against incest are in the Torah, are we bound by those? The command to love God and your neighbor were first given in the Torah. Are Christians supposed to keep those?

 

[ViaCrucis]

More excuses. The command to abstain from homosexual relations was given in the Torah. Are we bound by that? The commands against incest are in the Torah, are we bound by those? The command to love God and your neighbor were first given in the Torah. Are Christians supposed to keep those?

Special pleading.

And no, the Torah is not relevant for Christians.

However, our Lord Jesus Christ has established that "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and with all your soul; and love your neighbor as yourself" is obligatory law for His followers. Jesus also commanded, "Love one another as I have loved you," and also many others.

Feel free to address my points though, even though they weren't directed toward you, they are still relevant.

Do you observe all 613 of God's commandments instituted in the Torah? If not, why not? If Christians are only supposed to observe some of the commandments in the Torah and not others, which ones are these? Perhaps you have a list somewhere not found in the rest of our Bibles that has some check marks on which ones we are to observe and which ones are done away with. The commandment for men to not shave the edges of their beard, does that one stay? How about the one attached to it, to not make engravings in the flesh? How about God's commandment not to wear mixed fabrics? What about God's commandment not to consume shellfish? Can I add milk to my meatloaf, or is that a no?

See, the only Scripture I have available to me to let me know about any of this comes in the New Testament where I'm told and where I read that Christians, particularly Gentile converts, are not beholden to observe Jewish law. The Council of Jerusalem and the Apostolic Letter, both mentioned and found in Acts 15, are rather explicit and clear on the subject.

But go on, explain to me why the commandment to observe the seventh day Sabbath still stands because it's more important than any of God's other commandments.

Go on and explain to me how I'm the one with the excuses.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Stryder06]

Special pleading.

And no, the Torah is not relevant for Christians.

However, our Lord Jesus Christ has established that "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and with all your soul; and love your neighbor as yourself" is obligatory law for His followers. Jesus also commanded, "Love one another as I have loved you," and also many others.

Feel free to address my points though, even though they weren't directed toward you, they are still relevant.

Do you observe all 613 of God's commandments instituted in the Torah? If not, why not? If Christians are only supposed to observe some of the commandments in the Torah and not others, which ones are these? Perhaps you have a list somewhere not found in the rest of our Bibles that has some check marks on which ones we are to observe and which ones are done away with. The commandment for men to not shave the edges of their beard, does that one stay? How about the one attached to it, to not make engravings in the flesh? How about God's commandment not to wear mixed fabrics? What about God's commandment not to consume shellfish? Can I add milk to my meatloaf, or is that a no?

See, the only Scripture I have available to me to let me know about any of this comes in the New Testament where I'm told and where I read that Christians, particularly Gentile converts, are not beholden to observe Jewish law. The Council of Jerusalem and the Apostolic Letter, both mentioned and found in Acts 15, are rather explicit and clear on the subject.

But go on, explain to me why the commandment to observe the seventh day Sabbath still stands because it's more important than any of God's other commandments.

Go on and explain to me how I'm the one with the excuses.

-CryptoLutheran

Sorry but the "613" laws excuse doesn't phase me. If you can write out all 613 then maybe we can discuss them and I'll consider your point, but if you're simply pulling from a list that's been made available on the internet, and then repeating the same tired excuse others are spouting, then please save it for someone else.

Christ didn't establish a new law. The law to love God and your neighbor already existed in the Torah. Same with the laws about sexual purity. So no matter how you try to spin it, you're in the same "pick and choose" boat you keep trying to put sabbath keepers in.

The new testament as we know it was organized as such by man at a later point in time. No where in the bible will you see anyone refer to the books of the law, the prophets, or the psalms as "The old testament". They are called "scripture." As such they hold just as much weight as the books that came after them, because they all work together to show us how we are to live.

Again, it was man who made the books preceeding the Gospels (which by the way also belong in the OT if you realize what solidifies a testament) of lesser effect.

And yes I believe there were laws exlcusive for the jews. Most of those were no longer being upheld even before Christ's first advent. It's really not hard to understand.

The command to observe the sabbath is just as important as the other nine it's included with. The reason why there's emphasis on it is because of how it's being trodded under foot by man, and how a superfluous day has been given presedence in it's place.

 

[Purge187]

Christians are no more obligated to observe the Sabbath than they are to affix mezuzahs to their doorpost or wear tzizit.

-CryptoLutheran

Based on Christ's reaction to the Pharisees who scorned He and the disciples for plucking wheat grains on the Sabbath, I agree that modern-day disciples don't need to adhere to the rigid Talmudic customs concerning the Sabbath.

That being said, I think there's merit to the argument about Sunday not being the true Sabbath day. The Commandment states that we are to rest on the seventh day, not a seventh day.

 

[from scratch]

More excuses. The command to abstain from homosexual relations was given in the Torah. Are we bound by that? The commands against incest are in the Torah, are we bound by those? The command to love God and your neighbor were first given in the Torah. Are Christians supposed to keep those?

Not according to you. Remember the Mosaic law was done away with according to you. Why are you trying to make your case transcending both your divisions of the law?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Based on Christ's reaction to the Pharisees who scorned He and the disciples for plucking wheat grains on the Sabbath, I agree that modern-day disciples don't need to adhere to the rigid Talmudic customs concerning the Sabbath.

That being said, I think there's merit to the argument about Sunday not being the true Sabbath day. The Commandment states that we are to rest on the seventh day, not a seventh day.

I concur. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, what we call Saturday. The first day of the week has never been the Sabbath.

Still, however, Christians are not obligated to observe the Sabbath. We gather for worship on the first day of the week, not because it has been commanded, but out of reverence to Christ who rose from the dead on the first day of the week; it has been the custom of the Church since the beginning. We could, and can, gather on any day of the week. We could gather every Tuesday and Wednesday, or on every second Thursday of the month; but that isn't what we typically do, we gather on the first day of the week as our weekly day of corporate worship. And yet, still, many don't restrict their gatherings to Sunday morning, but also to Saturday night, or Wednesday night, or even to every day of the week.

Let your conscience be clear, and worship God--there is no commandment that weighs upon you concerning what day you ought to worship on, but rather worship God in Spirit and truth every day, and gather with your brothers and sisters as often as you are able.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Stryder06]

Not according to you. Remember the Mosaic law was done away with according to you. Why are you trying to make your case transcending both your divisions of the law?

Please stop lying on me and misrepresenting what I've said. I'd appreciate it. If you persist though I'm going to put you on ignore and report you. This is getting old.

 

[Stryder06]

I concur. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, what we call Saturday. The first day of the week has never been the Sabbath.

Still, however, Christians are not obligated to observe the Sabbath. We gather for worship on the first day of the week, not because it has been commanded, but out of reverence to Christ who rose from the dead on the first day of the week; it has been the custom of the Church since the beginning. We could, and can, gather on any day of the week. We could gather every Tuesday and Wednesday, or on every second Thursday of the month; but that isn't what we typically do, we gather on the first day of the week as our weekly day of corporate worship. And yet, still, many don't restrict their gatherings to Sunday morning, but also to Saturday night, or Wednesday night, or even to every day of the week.

Let your conscience be clear, and worship God--there is no commandment that weighs upon you concerning what day you ought to worship on, but rather worship God in Spirit and truth every day, and gather with your brothers and sisters as often as you are able.

-CryptoLutheran

This is so unbiblical it's not funny. The sabbath is a holy convocation. You have ZERO proof that the church was gathering out of reverence of the resurrection on Sunday in place of Sabbath. It's not in the bible. You have to put your trust in the traditions of man to sustain that point.

What you continue to miss is that God made the 7th day holy. It was blessed and sanctified. The day itself is special because God literally made it so. It's not just "some day", but it is God's day. Unless you can find scripture that shows God unsanctifying the day, removing His blessing from it, and making it common, you are in fact descecrating it when you go about your own business on it as if it were any other day.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is so unbiblical it's not funny. The sabbath is a holy convocation. You have ZERO proof that the church was gathering out of reverence of the resurrection on Sunday in place of Sabbath. It's not in the bible. You have to put your trust in the traditions of man to sustain that point.

What you continue to miss is that God made the 7th day holy. It was blessed and sanctified. The day itself is special because God literally made it so. It's not just "some day", but it is God's day. Unless you can find scripture that shows God unsanctifying the day, removing His blessing from it, and making it common, you are in fact descecrating it when you go about your own business on it as if it were any other day.

I see we've added the Straw Man to our list of fallacious arguments in addition to Special Pleading.

You'll note that I never said Christians replaced the Sabbath with Sunday. Indeed, you will note that I said that Christians are not obligated to observe the Sabbath since Christians are not obligated to observe the Torah. Why would I say that? Because Scripture says so.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Stryder06]

I see we've added the Straw Man to our list of fallacious arguments in addition to Special Pleading.

You'll note that I never said Christians replaced the Sabbath with Sunday. Indeed, you will note that I said that Christians are not obligated to observe the Sabbath since Christians are not obligated to observe the Torah. Why would I say that? Because Scripture says so.

-CryptoLutheran

You can say what you will, but actions speak louder than words. By treating the sabbath as common, and sunday as sacred, you most certainly have replaced it.

And the scripture in no wise says that Christians don't have to keep the sabbath. You keep trying to lump the sabbath in with the Torah as if it's the only command there. If all of the Torah is out, then that includes commandments 1-3 and 5-10, as well as the laws about sexual morality, including homosexuality.

 

[from scratch]

Sorry but the "613" laws excuse doesn't phase me. If you can write out all 613 then maybe we can discuss them and I'll consider your point, but if you're simply pulling from a list that's been made available on the internet, and then repeating the same tired excuse others are spouting, then please save it for someone else.

Christ didn't establish a new law. The law to love God and your neighbor already existed in the Torah. Same with the laws about sexual purity. So no matter how you try to spin it, you're in the same "pick and choose" boat you keep trying to put sabbath keepers in.

The new testament as we know it was organized as such by man at a later point in time. No where in the bible will you see anyone refer to the books of the law, the prophets, or the psalms as "The old testament". They are called "scripture." As such they hold just as much weight as the books that came after them, because they all work together to show us how we are to live.

Again, it was man who made the books preceeding the Gospels (which by the way also belong in the OT if you realize what solidifies a testament) of lesser effect.

And yes I believe there were laws exlcusive for the jews. Most of those were no longer being upheld even before Christ's first advent. It's really not hard to understand.

The command to observe the sabbath is just as important as the other nine it's included with. The reason why there's emphasis on it is because of how it's being trodded under foot by man, and how a superfluous day has been given presedence in it's place.

Why should the wheel be reinvented? If the same 613 were named why redo the list? Do you expect him to have some different ones?

Christ did establish a new law so-to-speak called the New Covenant which isn't like the one made with Israel according to both testaments.

If what you say about both testaments is true there is a very serious conflict. Both can't be correct in this case. So one must invalidate one or the other. The New Covenant isn't like the old one based on law. The New Covenant is based on promises which aren't dependent on the actions of the receivers.

We're not trodding the Sabbath underfoot because we're not obligated to it. At best it is an option. False accusations always stink.

 

[from scratch]

Based on Christ's reaction to the Pharisees who scorned He and the disciples for plucking wheat grains on the Sabbath, I agree that modern-day disciples don't need to adhere to the rigid Talmudic customs concerning the Sabbath.

That being said, I think there's merit to the argument about Sunday not being the true Sabbath day. The Commandment states that we are to rest on the seventh day, not a seventh day.

We're not contesting the mere validity of the Sabbath or its existence. We're challenging the obligation of Christians under the New Covenant to observe the 7th day Sabbath.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We're not contesting the mere validity of the Sabbath or its existence. We're challenging the obligation of Christians under the New Covenant to observe the 7th day Sabbath.

 

[Stryder06]

Christ did establish a new law so-to-speak called the New Covenant which isn't like the one made with Israel according to both testaments.

Except the covenant isn't a new law, but a new way of putting the law where it belonged, in the hearts of the people. There's no "so-to-speak" here.

If what you say about both testaments is true there is a very serious conflict. Both can't be correct in this case. So one must invalidate one or the other. The New Covenant isn't like the old one based on law. The New Covenant is based on promises which aren't dependent on the actions of the receivers.

The old covenant wasn't based on the law. The old covenant was the promise of the people to put the law in their hearts, and in so doing God said He'd be their God and they'd be His people. Notice how the book of Hebrews, which you love to appeal to, says that the problem with the first covenant was the people, not the law. In other words, the people didn't uphold their end of the deal.

We're not trodding the Sabbath underfoot because we're not obligated to it. At best it is an option. False accusations always stink.

It isn't an option. It's God's day. You are trodding it under foot when you treat it like a commond day since it isn't. It's holy. It's sanctified. It's blessed. Notice how all the traits that belong to the people of God are wrapped up in the sabbath. Do you really think that's conincidence?

 

[from scratch]

Please stop lying on me and misrepresenting what I've said. I'd appreciate it. If you persist though I'm going to put you on ignore and report you. This is getting old.

And what lie was that? Remember I've here for a little while.

 

[from scratch]

This is so unbiblical it's not funny. The sabbath is a holy convocation. You have ZERO proof that the church was gathering out of reverence of the resurrection on Sunday in place of Sabbath. It's not in the bible. You have to put your trust in the traditions of man to sustain that point.

What you continue to miss is that God made the 7th day holy. It was blessed and sanctified. The day itself is special because God literally made it so. It's not just "some day", but it is God's day. Unless you can find scripture that shows God unsanctifying the day, removing His blessing from it, and making it common, you are in fact descecrating it when you go about your own business on it as if it were any other day.

I'm a little confused here.

Are you saying the New Testament is not Scripture?

There has been verses cited and quoted about this very thing and from the Old Testament to boot concerning the ceasing of the 7th day sabbath.

 

[Stryder06]

We're not contesting the mere validity of the Sabbath or its existence. We're challenging the obligation of Christians under the New Covenant to observe the 7th day Sabbath.

The existence of the sabbath is all one needs to know, for it is a special day. It's not like a holiday, or a festival which can fall on any day of the week. The sabbath is set apart, a consistent time in the week for God's people to join together in holy convocation, to remember their Creator.

The commandment says that the day is to be kept holy, and that's because it's already holy. Examine the command and you can clearly see that it's origin is at creation, not sinai, which predates the existence of any jew.

 

[Optimax]

And there are still people that think it's Biblical that Christ did away with the law just by fulfilling it? What is the scriptural evidence for that view? I can accept people saying that they believe that but not that it's in any way based on what the Bible says. It would be the biggest topic in the Bible if Yeshua was saying he'd done away with the law. I think he would have mentioned it at least once.

Every king of Israel had to write a copy of the Torah. Yeshua wrote his on our hearts. It's really simple, this shouldn't be a topic for debate just one that people who hold that misconception are put straight on.

Scriptural evidence?

I wonder if you have ever read and considered these scriptures and other scriptures like them?

Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. KJV

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. KJV

Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. KJV

Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. KJV

Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. KJV

Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. KJV

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. KJV

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

Gal 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. KJV

Gal 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. KJV

Gal 3:10-11
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. KJV

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; KJV

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
KJV

 

[from scratch]

You can say what you will, but actions speak louder than words. By treating the sabbath as common, and sunday as sacred, you most certainly have replaced it.

And the scripture in no wise says that Christians don't have to keep the sabbath. You keep trying to lump the sabbath in with the Torah as if it's the only command there. If all of the Torah is out, then that includes commandments 1-3 and 5-10, as well as the laws about sexual morality, including homosexuality.

And now you add false accusations to the list. Christians can't be said to keep Sunday holy as a group. There are a few who approximate your idea. Notice I said a few.

 

[Stryder06]

I'm a little confused here.

Are you saying the New Testament is not Scripture?

I'm not going to entertain this at all.

There has been verses cited and quoted about this very thing and from the Old Testament to boot concerning the ceasing of the 7th day sabbath.

No there hasn't been. What you've done is tried to take a single verse that applied to Israel's captivity and apply it to your belief that the sabbath has been done away with. It was a text taken out of context if I've ever seen one. Even after the explanation was given you refused to accept it.

You can't even point to a time when that happened. Notice how the text says that besides her sabbath's, her feasts and festivals would also be brought to an end. If I'm not mistaken, the jews were still celebrating their feasts and festivals during the time of Christ, and after. I believe Paul even took part in one didn't he? So if you want to try to use Hosea 2:11, you have to be able to identify when this took place, and how.