An atheists world

[bhsmte]

God is self existent and self defining, beyond time and space. He is beyond the mass element. In one point there is nothing to create because He is beyond time and mass equation. If you take time and mass and excelerate them in a huge bowl. This is the universe. God would be beyond that mass, in His own spiritual domain. Without need of creation.

I don't see how your explanation forgoes the need for any God to have been created.

 

[Valiantis]

God is self existent and self defining, beyond time and space. He is beyond the mass element. In one point there is nothing to create because He is beyond time and mass equation. If you take time and mass and excelerate them in a huge bowl. This is the universe. God would be beyond that mass, in His own spiritual domain. Without need of creation.

In other words your God is indistinguishable from a God that does not exist.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

God is self existent and self defining, beyond time and space. He is beyond the mass element. In one point there is nothing to create because He is beyond time and mass equation. If you take time and mass and excelerate them in a huge bowl. This is the universe. God would be beyond that mass, in His own spiritual domain. Without need of creation.

That's not what the bible says. It says god created everything. Did god create himself? Did god create the realm in which he exists?

 

[AV1611VET]

God knows what we will do ahead of time

but when someone says

If God knows we will chose a coke, therefore we can't chose a pepsi is innacurate. It doesn't follow the line of reason.

It would be more like

"we won't choose the pepsi"

Exactly!

 

[createdtoworship]

That's not what the bible says. It says god created everything. Did god create himself? Did god create the realm in which he exists?

if I have a bowl and I say "eat everything" it is implying that I don't want you to eat "Me" just whats in the bowl correct?

It is the same with God being created. But I agree with you IF God actually needed mass or something to create then He would be in need of a creator as well.

in ohter words "everything" being created implies God as one of those things. But God is a thing in and of Himself.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't see how your explanation forgoes the need for any God to have been created.

God is without causation, because He is an agent. (putting it another way). So if you look up agent causation you realize that an agent is without causation, an agent causes but does not need cause.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

if I have a bowl and I say "eat everything" it is implying that I don't want you to eat "Me" just whats in the bowl correct?

It is the same with God being created. But I agree with you IF God actually needed mass or something to create then He would be in need of a creator as well.

1) your example of a bowl and "eating everything" would be incorrect if you were trying to display an absolute truth for all to ever know. You would say "I ate all of the cereal, and the cereal, the bowl, and myself came from...."

2) God says he created everything, presumably including himself or excluding himself. Whether physical or energy, both would need a source from which to originate.

So, did god create himself and/or the realm in which he exists?

 

[createdtoworship]

1) your example of a bowl and "eating everything" would be incorrect if you were trying to display an absolute truth for all to ever know. You would say "I ate all of the cereal, and the cereal, the bowl, and myself came from...."

2) God says he created everything, presumably including himself or excluding himself. Whether physical or energy, both would need a source from which to originate.

So, did god create himself and/or the realm in which he exists?

the real question is does God possess time and or mass, because if He doesn't have time/mass (coupled)...then He would have no beginning or creation need.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

the real question is does God possess time and or mass, because if He doesn't have time/mass (coupled)...then He would have no beginning or creation need.

Where in the bible is that claim made about god having no mass (I remember something about "in his own image") and god not existing in time? (he would have to exist in space-time in order to interact with our space-time because he would have to exist in that space-time.

 

[EternalDragon]

Where in the bible is that claim made about god having no mass (I remember something about "in his own image") and god not existing in time? (he would have to exist in space-time in order to interact with our space-time because he would have to exist in that space-time.

Great question!

God did enter our space time. In the form of a human being but still God. It was he, Jesus Christ, that created everything. It was also Jesus that appeared to and talked with many people in the Bible that they describe as being God.

Your concept of space time (past, present, future) is an invention of man. Which begs the question. Are we really in an eternal space time where God is?

 

[HitchSlap]

This is the question.

the real question is does God ...

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

I heard a story once about predestination.

there was a hall and a bunch of doors and on one door it reads "who ever wills shall enter" and once you go through the door is a table with a chair and a name plate with your name on it. You sit down. When you look back at the door on the other side it says "chosen before the foundation of the world."

I can't remember the story exactly, but I think it was CS.lewis that said it.

I agree with your assessment, to say someone can't chose the pepsi is not right. God chooses based on foreknowledge and sovereignty Romans states. So it's a cooperation that falls in line with the will of God.

the facts are this:

God knows everything

we have a free will

God knows what we will do ahead of time

but when someone says

If God knows we will chose a coke, therefore we can't chose a pepsi is innacurate. It doesn't follow the line of reason.

It would be more like

"we won't choose the pepsi"

Well in fact we won't "choose" at all. A choice would be between two possible courses but there is in fact only one. We simply have the illusion of choice.

 

[biggles53]

Well in fact we won't "choose" at all. A choice would be between two possible courses but there is in fact only one. We simply have the illusion of choice.

Exactly....!

The best that desperates like AV can claim is that the actor can feel that they are making a free choice. However, if there has indeed been a perfect foresight of events made, then the events can turn out NO OTHER WAY...!

And, with his usual display of intellectual dishonesty, he also avoids the real crux of the paradox. That is, this supposed god that he worships makes judgement of those whose actions he is quite well aware of, even before they are born, and into whom he sowed the seeds of a 'sinful nature'.....

As I repeat, how fortunate that such a slimy creature doesn't exist.....

 

[Ana the Ist]

It is an irrelevant question and defies logic. If God knows you chose a coke, then you have already made that free choice to choose a coke.

Your problem is that you think God controls those choices or somehow we are pre-programmed like robots or puppets. I don't know where you get that idea from. God merely can see the past, present and future all at once. He is outside of time. He does not make your choices for you.

Besides, if there is no free will and it is like you said then you should not even have the ability to question it here or even know about it.

Afraid not, see...we're speaking about the future, which god has knowledge of. He knows the choice I'll make before I make it, leaving me no choice but to follow his will.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Great question!

God did enter our space time. In the form of a human being but still God. It was he, Jesus Christ, that created everything. It was also Jesus that appeared to and talked with many people in the Bible that they describe as being God.

Your concept of space time (past, present, future) is an invention of man. Which begs the question. Are we really in an eternal space time where God is?

It should be easily verifiable that a being that transcends time need not reduce its appearance to its creating at one finite time if it could appear at all times simultaneously.

If it can move between our space/time and it's own, this too should be detectable. Unless it wishes to remain indistinguishable from a nonexistent being?

 

[Sasquatchit]

Everything He made was perfect until sin entered the world. Still, u can see His fingerprint everywhere!

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Everything He made was perfect until sin entered the world. Still, u can see His fingerprint everywhere!

I see a universe that implies nothing other than its own existence. You'll have to be more specific as to what evidence and how it follows that this evidence leads to the conclusion of the biblical god.

 

[bhsmte]

Everything He made was perfect until sin entered the world. Still, u can see His fingerprint everywhere!

If everything he made was "perfect" why would sin have entered the world?

It would seem there would have to have been a flaw in what he made, to allow sin.

 

[HitchSlap]

Everything He made was perfect until sin entered the world. Still, u can see His fingerprint everywhere!

Who created sin?

 

[EternalDragon]

If everything he made was "perfect" why would sin have entered the world?

It would seem there would have to have been a flaw in what he made, to allow sin.

It is called free will and it is not a flaw. Sin is not part of creation. It is a result of having free will.