An atheists world

[AV1611VET]

I like to use this question to explain the paradox to people who don't seem to understand it. Tomorrow, I'm going to go to the store to buy a soda. I can choose either Coke or Pepsi. God, since he already knows the future, knows that I will buy the Coke. When tomorrow comes...can I still choose the Pepsi?

Of course you can, but you won't.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Of course you can, but you won't.

Then the answer is no, and there was no choice. Nice of you to acknowledge that.

 

[AV1611VET]

Then the answer is no,

The answer to what is NO?

I thought I said YES?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

The answer to what is NO?

I thought I said YES?

No, you said no. There is no choice.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, you said no. There is no choice.

Methinks you're confused.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Methinks you're confused.

No. You said coke will be chosen. That confirms that there is no choice. It was nice that you stated it so clearly.

 

[AV1611VET]

No. You said coke will be chosen.

And why did I say Coke would be chosen, chief?

Can you answer that?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Of course you can, but you won't.

If I can choose Pepsi, then how does god know the day before that I will choose Coke? If I cannot choose Pepsi, and prove god's foreknowledge wrong, then my only real choice the whole time was Coke.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

And why did I say Coke would be chosen, chief?

Can you answer that?

If god knew the coke would be chosen before he decided to even create the universe, then there was no choice. Your confirmation that the coke would be chosen just confirmed that.

If you have anything to add to that, interesting as I'm sure it will be, it won't alter the fact that there was no choice.

 

[AV1611VET]

If I can choose Pepsi, then how does god know the day before that I will choose Coke?

It's called foreknowledge.

If I cannot choose Pepsi, and prove god's foreknowledge wrong, then my only real choice the whole time was Coke.

For the third time, you can choose the Pepsi.

Don't tell me you cannot choose the Pepsi.

I'm getting tired of hearing that.

AV: You can choose Pepsi.
Ana: If I cannot choose Pepsi.
AV: You can choose Pepsi.
Mr Strawberry: There is no choice.
AV: You can choose Pepsi.
Ana: If I cannot choose Pepsi.

You two are confusing yourselves, trying to put God in a catch-22.

 

[AV1611VET]

If god knew the coke would be chosen before he decided to even create the universe, then there was no choice. Your confirmation that the coke would be chosen just confirmed that.

If you have anything to add to that, interesting as I'm sure it will be, it won't alter the fact that there was no choice.

Stop and read what you just said.

First you said, IF GOD KNEW THE COKE WOULD BE CHOSEN.

Then you say, THEN THERE WAS NO CHOICE.

Which is it?

Before He even created the universe, God knew that Ana would exercise her freechoice to buy a Coke.

What's wrong with this picture?

Maybe if they stopped selling Coke & Pepsi to scientists or scientist-wannabes, we wouldn't have to explain it, eh?

From my movie file:

[youtube]8Vx1BTBhg4c[/youtube]

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Stop and read what you just said.

First you said, IF GOD KNEW THE COKE WOULD BE CHOSEN.

Then you say, THEN THERE WAS NO CHOICE.

Which is it?

Lol, not your best squirming. No, there is no difference between the two. God knew beforehand and what god knew would happen, happened. No choice involved at all.

Before He even created the universe, God knew that Ana would exercise her freechoice to buy a Coke.

No, there was no choice involved otherwise in all 50/50 choices like that, god would be wrong half the time. That's what freewill means. There is no freewill in this scenario.

What's wrong with this picture?

Your refusal to accept that freewill cannot exist if god knows before he even creates the universe what will happen.

 

[AV1611VET]

Your refusal to accept that freewill cannot exist if god knows before he even creates the universe what will happen.

What's 5 + 4?

And don't tell me you don't have a choice to say 8.

I realize you spiritual anarchists don't want to be held accountable to a higher Authority for your choices, but it's that kind of mentality that leads to people committing conscience-free acts of violence.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Of course you can, but you won't.

The key here is just as you said, "I won't". Why not? Because if I did it would defy god's perfect knowledge. Once you realize that...you'd have to realize that at that moment of "choosing" I cannot actually choose the Pepsi and prove god wrong. I have only one course of action (its no longer a choice, indeed it never was). No matter if it appears or feels as if I made a choice, it wouldn't be. Instead, life would become a series of events that simply give the illusion of free will and some sense of control.

Needless to say, this would put the entire Christian religion in jeopardy. What would be the point of judging a man's life based upon his actions, his choices, if he never had control over those actions and choices to begin with?

Take a few steps back to look at the larger picture and it makes even less sense. Why would god create the universe if he already knew the results of this action? Why create mankind, judge their actions, and then eternally reward or punish them? Would it not be simpler to place the souls of those going to heaven in heaven, and the souls of those going to hell in hell? He could skip the entire "life on earth" aspect of this game and send everyone immediately to their reward or punishment...and the results would be exactly the same. Indeed, if "heaven" and "hell" are not actual places that exist within the universe and instead exist apart from it...why create the universe at all?

A god who knows the future conceptually ruins the entire point of the Christian religion.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

What's 5 + 4?

And don't tell me you don't have a choice to say 8.

If your god exists he will know my answer beforehand so whatever I answer will not involve freewill on my part.

I realize you spiritual anarchists don't want to be held accountable to a higher Authority for your choices, but it's that kind of mentality that leads to people committing conscience-free acts of violence.

Which your god knew would happen, therefore there was no freewill involved - if your god exists, which he doesn't. It is only in a world without your all-knowing god that people have freewill.

 

[AV1611VET]

The key here is just as you said, "I won't". Why not? Because if I did it would defy god's perfect knowledge. Once you realize that...you'd have to realize that at that moment of "choosing" I cannot actually choose the Pepsi and prove god wrong. I have only one course of action (its no longer a choice, indeed it never was). No matter if it appears or feels as if I made a choice, it wouldn't be. Instead, life would become a series of events that simply give the illusion of free will and some sense of control.

Needless to say, this would put the entire Christian religion in jeopardy. What would be the point of judging a man's life based upon his actions, his choices, if he never had control over those actions and choices to begin with?

Take a few steps back to look at the larger picture and it makes even less sense. Why would god create the universe if he already knew the results of this action? Why create mankind, judge their actions, and then eternally reward or punish them? Would it not be simpler to place the souls of those going to heaven in heaven, and the souls of those going to hell in hell? He could skip the entire "life on earth" aspect of this game and send everyone immediately to their reward or punishment...and the results would be exactly the same. Indeed, if "heaven" and "hell" are not actual places that exist within the universe and instead exist apart from it...why create the universe at all?

A god who knows the future conceptually ruins the entire point of the Christian religion.

I don't know if you realize this, but with God or without God, you are still going to exercise your freechoice and buy a Coke tomorrow.

At least, that's what you said.

You just want to factor God into the equation now, so you can rant about some modified Calvinism or something.

 

[AV1611VET]

If your god exists he will know my answer beforehand ...

Ya ... how 'bout that?

... so whatever I answer will not involve freewill on my part.

Omniscience ≠ omnipotence.

Omniscience ≠ force.

Omniscience ≠ cause and effect.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't know if you realize this, but with God or without God, you are still going to exercise your freechoice and buy a Coke tomorrow.

At least, that's what you said.

You just want to factor God into the equation now, so you can rant about some modified Calvinism or something.

Actually that's not what I said. I said god knows I'll buy the coke. I'll make this easy...

Yes or no, if god knows I'll choose the coke, can I choose the Pepsi? Just keep in mind its the day before and I haven't decided yet....

 

[Valiantis]

The key here is just as you said, "I won't". Why not? Because if I did it would defy god's perfect knowledge. Once you realize that...you'd have to realize that at that moment of "choosing" I cannot actually choose the Pepsi and prove god wrong. I have only one course of action (its no longer a choice, indeed it never was). No matter if it appears or feels as if I made a choice, it wouldn't be. Instead, life would become a series of events that simply give the illusion of free will and some sense of control.

Needless to say, this would put the entire Christian religion in jeopardy. What would be the point of judging a man's life based upon his actions, his choices, if he never had control over those actions and choices to begin with?

Take a few steps back to look at the larger picture and it makes even less sense. Why would god create the universe if he already knew the results of this action? Why create mankind, judge their actions, and then eternally reward or punish them? Would it not be simpler to place the souls of those going to heaven in heaven, and the souls of those going to hell in hell? He could skip the entire "life on earth" aspect of this game and send everyone immediately to their reward or punishment...and the results would be exactly the same. Indeed, if "heaven" and "hell" are not actual places that exist within the universe and instead exist apart from it...why create the universe at all?

A god who knows the future conceptually ruins the entire point of the Christian religion.

Religions are not for thinking about they are for following.

They were designed back in the days when people just followed what everyone else was doing, the last thing they wanted was not to be part of the community, if you joined a community you just went along because for you and your family to be outside was not good, it was best to say you believed even if you did not, that is true in the US even today.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I don't know if you realize this, but with God or without God, you are still going to exercise your freechoice and buy a Coke tomorrow.

Wrong. If your god knows beforehand the coke will be bought then the option of not buying the coke does not exist. But without your god the fate of the coke is unknown and depends only on the person's freewill.