An atheists world

[Lord Emsworth]

Would that work for the watch theory?

What watch theory? I don't know of any such thing.

 

[AV1611VET]

you are making the case here that god has no free will. Is that what you want to do?

-- You lost me on this one, chief. I don't see where you're coming from.

 

[EternalDragon]

you are making the case here that god has no free will. Is that what you want to do?

No. He is saying if a god wanted to create intelligent life like himself for some companionship, that all have complete free will, he would have had to know how it starts, how it goes along and how it ends. (I would think the ending is like the perfect ending to the perfect movie). And he did it anyhow bearing in mind that any interference to be a puppet master would negate free will. Sort of like the butterfly effect.

We just can't see the ending yet.

 

[Lethe]

He is saying if a god wanted to create intelligent life like himself for some companionship, that all have complete free will, he would have had to know how it starts, how it goes along and how it ends.

Nonsense.

Simple rules obviously give rise to complex, even completely unpredictable behavior.

An example of a hard, but still deterministic simple rule set would be Go or Chess. The rules are simple, the implications for strategy and board position explode.

You don't need to be a genius to invent chess or go or to learn the rules, but it's not possible to know all outcomes.

 

[EternalDragon]

Nonsense.

Simple rules obviously give rise to complex, even completely unpredictable behavior.

An example of a hard, but still deterministic simple rule set would be Go or Chess. The rules are simple, the implications for strategy and board position explode.

You don't need to be a genius to invent chess or go or to learn the rules, but it's not possible to know all outcomes.

You don't get it. God is outside of time. He already saw the game and knows the moves and the winner.

 

[Loudmouth]

You don't get it. God is outside of time. He already saw the game and knows the moves and the winner.

So he already knew that millions of children would die agonizing deaths due to disease before he even started?

 

[Skaloop]

You don't get it. God is outside of time. He already saw the game and knows the moves and the winner.

God saw it? 'Saw' is past tense. How can past tense apply to something that is outside of time?

 

[Split Rock]

A omnipresent, omnipotent God whose creation is always said to be a world with mistakes. Yet, Christians know God knows the beginning and the end, that God has purpose for everything. I would like to hear how someone (atheist, or anyone), how they would do it differently; and let both science and theology pick apart at the suggestions based on facts today.

Example:

Joe the atheist: I would make the earth without grass; grass was a bad idea.

Joanne the atheist or creationist: What would the cows eat?

Joe the atheist: people

Berry: People?; so the people that remain don't have the strength to slaughter these beasts?

And so on...............

I will start with:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3 KJV)

For a start, I wouldn't send my previous {ha,ha} perfect creation that rebelled against me down to the planet I created my other perfect life, just so he can tempt and mislead said perfect life into doing things I don't like.

 

[AV1611VET]

So he already knew that millions of children would die agonizing deaths due to disease before he even started?

Yes.

1.5 million in the U.S. alone per year.

We call it the American Holocaust.

 

[EternalDragon]

So he already knew that millions of children would die agonizing deaths due to disease before he even started?

Death of our earthly bodies only. No one really dies. We are eternal beings.

Like I said, you can't see the ending, can you?

 

[AV1611VET]

God saw it? 'Saw' is past tense. How can past tense apply to something that is outside of time?

He can also speak outside of time.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes.

Then God is immoral.

 

[Loudmouth]

Death of our earthly bodies only. No one really dies. We are eternal beings.

So why make children suffer agony when it isn't needed?

Like I said, you can't see the ending, can you?

You can't see it either, and you are making it up as you go along.

 

[EternalDragon]

So why make children suffer agony when it isn't needed?

Adam and Eves sin is the cause, not God. Your question is rather, why doesn't God stop the suffering?

If everyone turned to God on the entire Earth and followed His word, I would bet all suffering of any kind would cease.

 

[Loudmouth]

Adam and Eves sin is the cause, not God.

God created Adam and Eve, and according to you God knew that they would do the very things they did do before God even created them. An omnipotent God, by definition, could have created the world so they would not have sinned and that would have prevented the pain and suffering of billions, according to your beliefs.

Also, when was the last time anyone gave the death penalty to a child because of something their great-grandfather did? How is that anywhere close to being moral?

Your question is rather, why doesn't God stop the suffering?

Of course. If your child were suffering and you could easily stop their suffering, isn't it your moral duty to stop that suffering? Don't we put parents in jail for neglecting their children?

If everyone turned to God on the entire Earth and followed His word, I would bet all suffering of any kind would cease.

If history is any indication, it will only increase suffering.

 

[Split Rock]

If everyone turned to God on the entire Earth and followed His word, I would bet all suffering of any kind would cease.

There would be a lot more witch huntings and burnings.... Doesn't sound like less suffering to me...

 

[Skaloop]

If everyone turned to God on the entire Earth and followed His word, I would bet all suffering of any kind would cease.

So nobody would ever get cancer? That's just one example of the sort of suffering that happens regardless of whether one has turned to God and followed his word. There are countless other things that people suffer from that have nothing at all to do with turning to God or not.

 

[HitchSlap]

So, would there be evil still? You seem to be able to reveal yourself to all humans, yet in the case for God, they would die if He revealed Himself. Before there was a good system like WELFARE (lol), you believe that it's wrong to work for a place to sleep and eat, and for someone to provide that in return for work?
You say you would prohibit rape? The bible does also. Capital punishment was the cure for rape. A man having sex with a unmarried women who has been found doing so, was required to marry the girl. Remember people were not 35 when they got married.

I like the updating of your Holy Book. But it sounds much like the laws of the US, being changed every time someone has a new sexual fetish. Do you think eventually the only laws that are created are only boundaries for the sins that they allow?

So, you have no arch enemy that means everyone loves you? Would there be such thing as free choice in your world then? If so, when disease is rampant and 90% of the world are infected with a deadly disease; how would you protect the %10 left from the 90%?

Yeah, no evil if I was god. See how simple that was?

 

[Lethe]

Death of our earthly bodies only. No one really dies. We are eternal beings.

That doesn't make sense.

 

[AV1611VET]

Then God is immoral.

Is He now?

Perhaps He operates on another set of standards and a higher knowledge base than you?