The books of Hebrews and Revelation prove the unchangeableness of God's Holy Law. (2)

[VictorC]

it is off topic

It is standard fare to divert from the topic when it can't be defended. It is the same thing LP did about 800 posts ago when confronted with the IJ.

 

[from scratch]

How so? Please explain.

A question: "Will Jesus separate the Wheat from the Tares, [1] before, [2] during or [3] sometime after His Second Advent?" Please provide scripture with your answer, thank you.

It is impossible to show one who has no desire to learn.

The answer to your query is yes. You know the verse.

 

[CFTerminator]

It is standard fare to divert from the topic when it can't be defended. It is the same thing LP did about 800 posts ago when confronted with the IJ.

Victor: Do not understand Daniel 7:9-10? It clearly portrays a court chaired by God himself examining the heavenly books that will determine who will be saved, and who are will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. That process involves an examining of the evidence of the lives of every human being in human history. Very much like a court of law, but with one big difference, the judge has complete knowledge of the lives of every human being who has ever lived.

Daniel 7:9-10

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Leuko Petra

That false 'predestination gospel' [the very core of OSAS]
​

This will be my last post defending Reformed Soteriology in this thread it is off topic and if you want to discuss it then please start a new thread.

.

Much like RCs, debating sabbatarian SDAs can be a daunting challenge to anyone.




.

 

[Keachian]

Do not understand Daniel 7:9-10? It clearly portrays a court chaired by God himself examining the heavenly books that will determine who will be saved, and who are will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Which is not a description of the IJ.

Again the IJ is convened on professed believers only. You keep on dragging up examples of a judgment on all peoples and saying that it applies only to believers, missing the mark much?

 

[from scratch]

Much like RCs, debating sabbatarian SDAs can be a daunting challenge to anyone.

It no longer is debate when one acts like the opponent hasn't said a thing. It is badgering to continue to ask the same question over and over hoping one will convert and give the desired answer to declare victory.

 

[from scratch]

Thank you for commenting, though your comment puzzles me. Perhaps you can expand some.

Christianity is about following Jesus and not following churches or its leaders, right? That is why some claim to be followers of Christ Jesus and not a church or like being referred to as Christian.

What seems to be unchangeable in Law is Christ, not Moses. So to be a follower of Christ is unchangeable, but a follower of Moses is subordinate to obeying Jesus. It is our faith that directs our course. The thing that people seem to miss is "that how you believe, that is how you must follow" and you must follow in a way that does not hurt your brothers & sisters, unselfish commitments & conduct.

It is interesting that Jesus brought us his Father's Holy Law. Yet how many people understand what he taught? This is why we each need to think & ask of God with the help of His Holy Spirit living within us our questions and for our needs. Paul said for each of us to work out our own salvations. Why? Jesus taught in a way as a good teacher would do to get their students to think and understand. Thinking seems to be a distraction to the institutional control of people through churches & leaders. It isn't encouraged. I believe that Jesus heavily encouraged us to think and get right with our Father through righteousness (stop sinning, repent and living morally with Jesus' love within us). I have people in many different churches pulling me left and right with their follow the leader mentality, only their leader isn't Jesus, or even close. Who is the leader of the distractions away from the Gospel's message to us?

I love to spend time with groups of people to discuss Christ and his Gospel with them. I get inspired to help others to see more closely Jesus' beautiful Gospel to us. We need this closeness and fellowship to enrich our lives with God. I always get the distractions and harshness of relentless unthinking officiators of the Law thrown at me. I go to all churches and will not claim any. I love people and not institutions who haven't a clue as to the will of God, for they go left and right away from Jesus. How can I see and so many not? The older I get the more easily it seems to know these things. Have that many people (especially in leadership positions) missed the boat?

I'm having a very difficult time understanding what you're saying.

No. A follower of Moses isn't subordinate to Jesus. Jesus effectively cancelled Moses. See John 1:17 and Romans 10:4.

I don't understand what you're saying about brothers and sisters; unselfish commitments & conduct. Anything I do pleases one while offending another. Who is being selfish/unselfish here? Are you positing some here aren't Christians? Which ones? You did say something about Law. I'm not sure what you're talking about. You didn't say the law but capped Law. Does this mean the same thing as the law? I think it does by the rest of your paragraph. Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness. Therefore Moses (the law) can't possibly be subordinate to Jesus.

In regard to your last paragraph, which church is about God and Jesus these days? It is about social conformity and control.

 

[VictorC]

Victor: Do not understand Daniel 7:9-10? It clearly portrays a court chaired by God himself examining the heavenly books that will determine who will be saved,

You haven't read Daniel 7 past your sound bite. Like so many proof texts Adventists like to use, all one needs to do is look at the context. Daniel 7:9-11 tells us quite a different story than you allege.

9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

Do the beast or the horn represent the "professed people of God"?
No.
And it is the beasts that are judged in this scenario, and this judgment scene is not compliant with the definition imposed on the Investigative Judgment doctrine.

• Convened only after 1844, 'it is...in 1844...to perform the work of investigative judgment'
• Addresses only the 'professed people of God', and is not a general judgment
• Convened in absentia of the accused, 'they will not be present in person'
• The accused are judged according to the old covenant, 'The law of God is the standard'
• Adventist soteriology is dependent on this alleged judgment, 'their names will be blotted out of the book of life'

and who are will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

And are the beasts thrown into the lake of fire?
No.
Continue on through verse 12:
As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Had you continued through verse 22, you would have found the only impact concerning the saints of God is that we are the recipients of the real estate the beasts lost when they are judged: "a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom."

That process involves an examining of the evidence of the lives of every human being in human history. Very much like a court of law, but with one big difference, the judge has complete knowledge of the lives of every human being who has ever lived.

Daniel 7:9-10

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."

Your quote is curious in that you copied it from Scripture, stopping at the exact point where the quote itself refutes your fallacious summary. I do not believe that this was accidental, but an obvious attempt at deception.

 

[Stryder06]

Would you kindly explain the IJ in the light of John 5:24. The verse says I've already passed the judgment and have life. Therefore I see no purpose of the IJ.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

As I told Victor, your understanding of Judgment is too linear. First the text says that those who believe shall not come into condemnation. It does not say that they won't be judged.

The IJ, in short, is nothing more than God making up the number of people from earth who will enter into His kingdom.

1 Peter 4:17, 18 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Judgment on the righteous isn't about condeming them, but showing that they are indeed those who belong to Christ because they have love Him. That is the IJ in a nutshell.

 

[Stryder06]

Tall73 is a trained SDA minister who no longer agrees with you. You can't say he doesn't understand your view of the IJ, Daniel or Revelation. I'd like to know if you think with his knowledge he doesn't understand. Or are you just going to take the easy way out and say he has been simply deceived?

His being a trained SDA minister is irrelevant. That doesn't mean that he corner's the block on understanding our doctrine. Anyone can be deceived, Pastor's included. It's not about taking the easy way out, it's simply stating the truth. Wrong is wrong, and Tall has it wrong.

 

[from scratch]

You haven't read Daniel 7 past your sound bite. Like so many proof texts Adventists like to use, all one needs to do is look at the context. Daniel 7:9-11 tells us quite a different story than you allege.

9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

Do the beast or the horn represent the "professed people of God"?
No.

And it is the beasts that are judged in this scenario, and this judgment scene is not compliant with the definition imposed on the Investigative Judgment doctrine.

• Convened only after 1844, 'it is...in 1844...to perform the work of investigative judgment'
• Addresses only the 'professed people of God', and is not a general judgment
• Convened in absentia of the accused, 'they will not be present in person'
• The accused are judged according to the old covenant, 'The law of God is the standard'
• Adventist soteriology is dependent on this alleged judgment, 'their names will be blotted out of the book of life'

And are the beasts thrown into the lake of fire?
No.
Continue on through verse 12:
As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Had you continued through verse 22, you would have found the only impact concerning the saints of God is that we are the recipients of the real estate the beasts lost when they are judged: "a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom."



Your quote is curious in that you copied it from Scripture, stopping at the exact point where the quote itself refutes your fallacious summary. I do not believe that this was accidental, but an obvious attempt at deception.

It is truly amazing what is understood when one reads the whole Bible.

 

[from scratch]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

As I told Victor, your understanding of Judgment is too linear. First the text says that those who believe shall not come into condemnation. It does not say that they won't be judged.

The IJ, in short, is nothing more than God making up the number of people from earth who will enter into His kingdom.

1 Peter 4:17, 18 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Judgment on the righteous isn't about condeming them, but showing that they are indeed those who belong to Christ because they have love Him. That is the IJ in a nutshell.

It does say that the individual has passed the judgment and entered into life. If one doesn't pass the judgment they're condemned and enter death.

Why does every single detail have to be present in everything so one has no escape from the truth?

 

[from scratch]

His being a trained SDA minister is irrelevant. That doesn't mean that he corner's the block on understanding our doctrine. Anyone can be deceived, Pastor's included. It's not about taking the easy way out, it's simply stating the truth. Wrong is wrong, and Tall has it wrong.

He understands enough to pass and graduate for the officials. In all schools one parrots back what the teacher says or fails and doesn't graduate.

Is there truly no level to which one can stoop to in order to discredit others?

 

[Stryder06]

It does say that the individual has passed the judgment and entered into life. If one doesn't pass the judgment they're condemned and enter death.

Why does every single detail have to be present in everything so one has no escape from the truth?

Like I said, your understanding of Judgment is too linear. But I don't expect to convince you. I was just showing you what you asked.

 

[Stryder06]

He understands enough to pass and graduate for the officials. In all schools one parrots back what the teacher says or fails and doesn't graduate.

Irrelevant. We're not talking about what he used to teach but about what he is espousing now.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I'm having a very difficult time understanding what you're saying.

No. A follower of Moses isn't subordinate to Jesus. Jesus effectively cancelled Moses. See John 1:17 and Romans 10:4.

I don't understand what you're saying about brothers and sisters; unselfish commitments & conduct. Anything I do pleases one while offending another. Who is being selfish/unselfish here? Are you positing some here aren't Christians? Which ones? You did say something about Law. I'm not sure what you're talking about. You didn't say the law but capped Law. Does this mean the same thing as the law? I think it does by the rest of your paragraph. Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness. Therefore Moses (the law) can't possibly be subordinate to Jesus.

In regard to your last paragraph, which church is about God and Jesus these days? It is about social conformity and control.

(I had a wonderful and longer post to answer you, but the computer ate it. Sometimes, I feel that the devil can get into these things. The one thing about inspirations for God that we get and speak to others is that the source of these is not like that of darkness, it is everflowing and more on the way. I will try to resay what I had written to you with God's help. I had saved a portion of what I wrote on a word pad.)

Let me say, that we might as well be in a garden filled with tares from the enemy of God. To be God's we try to survive and bear fruit. Some are so wrapped up in the tares that they bear little, you just see the tares, where is Christ in them? These tares are affecting our beliefs, strangling our faith with things not really part of the will of God or his Gospel. How do you tell what is going on, when you believe different from others? You simply have a problem and have to believe as you do, unless you do your homework and discover for yourself what you truly believe (which is acceptable to God for you to find the truth behind things), but in the mean time, we must obey Jesus' Gospel and love one another, especially brothers and sisters. That obedience to the teachings and instructions (commands) of Jesus' Gospel is so important, loving each other, showing respect for our differences, not arguing. We must be unselfish and committedly so to the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be found in God's favor and will.
The Holy Law that Christ brought and taught us is the summation of the prophets and of the Law. It is the golden two. Another summation is to love God and others or perish. The Bible doesn't say perish directly, but without love for God and your neighbor, you are not obeying the Gospel of Jesus. I would just say to be alive, you must follow Jesus and his Way which involve great love for others. In Scripture of the Law, you were told what not to do so to live well or else you die. In Christ of what I call the Holy Law, you are told what to do to live and not die. Through Jesus' Gospel that we have believed and accepted, we know how to conduct ourselves and expected how to live. We must retrain our hearts to love bad people, to be unselfish, to show respect & love to others and live in a thoughful way honoring Jesus & our Father in Heaven.

If what I believe offends others in church, then my job is to be at peace with them and within myself, as far as I can. I found what I believe in because I did my homework to discover what it was. I researched for months deeply into the subjects that were important to me. I discovered the tares of the enemy throughout all the churches stretching throughout history, even growing around myself. Remember God told the angel not to remove them, but they will be dealt with in the end. People did not grow these things and how can they be responsible for them? However, they can be choked by tares and bear little fruit. Can they become evil by them? If they are not of God, then they can not obey Christ. If you can't bear fruit, that is a problem.

Out in the 33,000 denominations of the church are people who truly bear fruit and obey Jesus. They represent the real church out of all this grown up mess we have. The leaders of the denominations and their affliated churches may be most bothered by these tares that try to choke the word in believers. We, whether leaders or just members, need to belong to those obedient to Jesus alone. We need to be found obeying Jesus and not worrying about this mess within the church and the world. If the angels were told not to remove the tares from the world, we can not either. We can note that they are there, even perhaps choking us some. We can obey Jesus despite their presence. Otherwords, we can and should ignore them to bear fruit for God. Jesus said to be known by your love for one another. Could I say it this way: be known for obeying the Holy Law of Christ: loving God and each other? I am sorry to use the word "Holy Law" but Jesus represents the fulfillment of the Law and this seems to be the best way to represent what all this means.

The whole idea of what I am saying is to know how to obey God & Jesus. We belong to Jesus and thus must know how to obey him, especially in his instructions to be known by our love for one another. Have I explained things enough for you to realize how to do this? I don't seem to have to explore more tares out there to believe closer to Jesus. I know that they are all around me and am not so bothered by them. We can be followers of Jesus after all.

(I am supposing the things that I said after this before the computer took them should be left out for now. I have been on this computer for awhile. It is truly unfortunate that we lose inspired words that come to us due to computer errors. If you want me to try to explain things better, I will. If I weren't so tired and bothered about losing part of my message to you, I would try to say it again. The last part that I lost was very revealing and shows so much of why things are the way that they are. We need to trust God and not worry about things. Maybe tonight, I might reread what I wrote and try to finish it the way that I originally wrote it. You know pen and ink just doesn't vanish in thin air like computer memory. My computer is old and needs replacement.)(Who knows, maybe my attempts to explain things better beyond this saved portion were like trying to uproot tares in the lives of others. That is not to be done. Maybe it was God who removed part of my post. Good enough. Got to go. Have a good day.)

 

[from scratch]

Irrelevant. We're not talking about what he used to teach but about what he is espousing now.

Doesn't change his knowledge or understanding in the least.

But let me ask if you think he is now promoting a lie?

 

[VictorC]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

As I told Victor, your understanding of Judgment is too linear. First the text says that those who believe shall not come into condemnation. It does not say that they won't be judged.

The IJ, in short, is nothing more than God making up the number of people from earth who will enter into His kingdom.

1 Peter 4:17, 18 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Judgment on the righteous isn't about condeming them, but showing that they are indeed those who belong to Christ because they have love Him. That is the IJ in a nutshell.

One glance can tell that Stryder06 isn't using Ellen White's definition of the IJ. He's made up a new doctrine fabricated on his own. Another glance shows that he has been confronted with another Scripture he can't reconcile with the IJ, and he has dispensed with Scripture.

 

[from scratch]

(I had a wonderful and longer post to answer you, but the computer ate it. Sometimes, I feel that the devil can get into these things. The one thing about inspirations for God that we get and speak to others is that the source of these is not like that of darkness, it is everflowing and more on the way. I will try to resay what I had written to you with God's help. I had saved a portion of what I wrote on a word pad.)

Let me say, that we might as well be in a garden filled with tares from the enemy of God. To be God's we try to survive and bear fruit. Some are so wrapped up in the tares that they bear little, you just see the tares, where is Christ in them? These tares are affecting our beliefs, strangling our faith with things not really part of the will of God or his Gospel. How do you tell what is going on, when you believe different from others? You simply have a problem and have to believe as you do, unless you do your homework and discover for yourself what you truly believe (which is acceptable to God for you to find the truth behind things), but in the mean time, we must obey Jesus' Gospel and love one another, especially brothers and sisters. That obedience to the teachings and instructions (commands) of Jesus' Gospel is so important, loving each other, showing respect for our differences, not arguing. We must be unselfish and committedly so to the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be found in God's favor and will.
The Holy Law that Christ brought and taught us is the summation of the prophets and of the Law. It is the golden two. Another summation is to love God and others or perish. The Bible doesn't say perish directly, but without love for God and your neighbor, you are not obeying the Gospel of Jesus. I would just say to be alive, you must follow Jesus and his Way which involve great love for others. In Scripture of the Law, you were told what not to do so to live well or else you die. In Christ of what I call the Holy Law, you are told what to do to live and not die. Through Jesus' Gospel that we have believed and accepted, we know how to conduct ourselves and expected how to live. We must retrain our hearts to love bad people, to be unselfish, to show respect & love to others and live in a thoughful way honoring Jesus & our Father in Heaven.

If what I believe offends others in church, then my job is to be at peace with them and within myself, as far as I can. I found what I believe in because I did my homework to discover what it was. I researched for months deeply into the subjects that were important to me. I discovered the tares of the enemy throughout all the churches stretching throughout history, even growing around myself. Remember God told the angel not to remove them, but they will be dealt with in the end. People did not grow these things and how can they be responsible for them? However, they can be choked by tares and bear little fruit. Can they become evil by them? If they are not of God, then they can not obey Christ. If you can't bear fruit, that is a problem.

Out in the 33,000 denominations of the church are people who truly bear fruit and obey Jesus. They represent the real church out of all this grown up mess we have. The leaders of the denominations and their affliated churches may be most bothered by these tares that try to choke the word in believers. We, whether leaders or just members, need to belong to those obedient to Jesus alone. We need to be found obeying Jesus and not worrying about this mess within the church and the world. If the angels were told not to remove the tares from the world, we can not either. We can note that they are there, even perhaps choking us some. We can obey Jesus despite their presence. Otherwords, we can and should ignore them to bear fruit for God. Jesus said to be known by your love for one another. Could I say it this way: be known for obeying the Holy Law of Christ: loving God and each other? I am sorry to use the word "Holy Law" but Jesus represents the fulfillment of the Law and this seems to be the best way to represent what all this means.

The whole idea of what I am saying is to know how to obey God & Jesus. We belong to Jesus and thus must know how to obey him, especially in his instructions to be known by our love for one another. Have I explained things enough for you to realize how to do this? I don't seem to have to explore more tares out there to believe closer to Jesus. I know that they are all around me and am not so bothered by them. We can be followers of Jesus after all.

(I am supposing the things that I said after this before the computer took them should be left out for now. I have been on this computer for awhile. It is truly unfortunate that we lose inspired words that come to us due to computer errors. If you want me to try to explain things better, I will. If I weren't so tired and bothered about losing part of my message to you, I would try to say it again. The last part that I lost was very revealing and shows so much of why things are the way that they are. We need to trust God and not worry about things. Maybe tonight, I might reread what I wrote and try to finish it the way that I originally wrote it. You know pen and ink just doesn't vanish in thin air like computer memory. My computer is old and needs replacement.)(Who knows, maybe my attempts to explain things better beyond this saved portion were like trying to uproot tares in the lives of others. That is not to be done. Maybe it was God who removed part of my post. Good enough. Got to go. Have a good day.)

I thought I asked a very simple question. I don't see how you answered any of it.

I ask again if you're calling the Holy Law of Jesus any part of the law as found in the Pentateuch? You did refer to the 2 golden laws. I assume these 2 laws are what the whole law hangs on. Thus I think you're calling us to follow the law. Is this correct?

I also explained that when I please one I offend anther. How does this apply to loving your brothers and sisters? Are you saying those who aren't pleasing to some really aren't brothers and sisters?

 

[from scratch]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

As I told Victor, your understanding of Judgment is too linear. First the text says that those who believe shall not come into condemnation. It does not say that they won't be judged.

The IJ, in short, is nothing more than God making up the number of people from earth who will enter into His kingdom.

1 Peter 4:17, 18 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Judgment on the righteous isn't about condeming them, but showing that they are indeed those who belong to Christ because they have love Him. That is the IJ in a nutshell.

Isn't there a verse that says you shall know them by their fruits? If we can why does God have to investigate to know? Does God stand by His promises or not? Does God lie?