The books of Hebrews and Revelation prove the unchangeableness of God's Holy Law. (2)

[Leuko Petra]

...Again only because you presuppose it to be there, there is no reason to, the IJ is an incredibly new doctrine when it comes to the grand scheme of Church History....

This is not so brother,

Please see:

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: Matthew 22:11

...investigation beforehand...

...Wedding had not happened yet...

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. Matthew 25;1

And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish. Matthew 25:2

They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: Matthew 25:3

But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. Matthew 25:4

While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. Matthew 25:5

And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Matthew 25:6

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. Matthew 25:7

And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. Matthew 25:8

But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. Matthew 25:9

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Matthew 25:10

Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. Matthew 25:11

But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Matthew 25:12

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. Matthew 25:13

...they are all women, all virgins, the very symbols of those claiming to be of the pure faith... 1 group true, 1 group false... the foolish will be left outside... probation will close for them... and it will be too late, even as it was in the days of Noe... [see also Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25, etc]

 

[Keachian]

This is not so brother,

Nothing you have posted fits the IJ pattern, there is no looking at books and judging the people of God without them being present in any of the passages you have just presented, the link therefore is tenuous at best.

Further I would like you to show me the IJ (that is (1) the inspection of books (2) convened after 1844 (3) in lieu of the presence of the defendant (4) against the professed people of God alone) in any Patristic source, any Scholastic source, any Reformation source (EGW doesn't count) or even any Counter-Reformation source.

 

[MoreCoffee]

but are you being greater than a prophet while doing it?

I am probably taller than a prophet from the old testament

 

[Leuko Petra]

What exactly is being investigated and why? You should be able to do this with less than say 20 words.

Clothing/Character is being investigated.

Why? Many say, "Lord, lord..."

Did "the seed" take root and bare proper fruit?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Clothing/Character is being investigated.

Clothing?

 

[Leuko Petra]

Nothing you have posted fits the IJ pattern, there is no looking at books and judging the people of God without them being present in any of the passages you have just presented, the link therefore is tenuous at best.

Further I would like you to show me the IJ (that is (1) the inspection of books (2) convened after 1844 (3) in lieu of the presence of the defendant (4) against the professed people of God alone) in any Patristic source, any Scholastic source, any Reformation source (EGW doesn't count) or even any Counter-Reformation source.

Brother,

...we have already considered, from the Scriptures...

...we have already considered the books investigated before, Daniel 7:10, etc remember?

...we have already considered the 2,300 day/years of Daniel 8:13-14,26; 11, etc, and the latter portion was sealed [could not be understood] until the time of the end, when it was opened [Revelation 10], remember?

...we have already considered the Heavenly court, and who takes part in it there, Daniel 7:10, and how it goes on before the Final phase of the Beast is slain, and how the Son of Man is not seen coming to earth, but is brought before the Father, which is in Heaven, etc, remember?

...we have already seen how that the Everlasting Gospel is still going forward while the Judgment is come, judgment beginning at/with the House of God [1 Peter 4:17], and with the various texts on the state of the dead and with John 14:2-3; Revelation 22:12 ["reward is with Him"]...

...it is a dangerous thing to remove the testimony of the messenger of the Lord from being considered, even as the pharisees and lawyers did not heed the Heaven sent message of the messenger, John the Baptist, "...rejected the counsel of God against themselves..." [Luke 7:30], for they declared [basically] let us hear it from a [teacher, Rabbi] so and so, not from this man and when Jesus told them to search the scriptures, they merely did so to justify themselves, thus they rejected the prophet, His word, the prophecies, crucified Christ and killed even those whom He sent after - it is coming again... ...

...please do not ask "Where?", for only silence will answer [Luke 23:9], and do not say, "Show me!", for it was already made known on several occasions, but if the question or statement arises in your heart, please search dilligently.

But if you may desire help with Matthew 18 and 22...

"...The debtor was freely and fully forgiven; He wilfully and grievously offended; His pardon was retracted, the whole debt required, and the offender delivered to the tormentors for ever. And shall we still say, but when we are once freely and fully forgiven, our pardon can never be retracted? Verily, verily, I say unto you, So likewise will my heavenly Father do to you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses...." - Wesley's Commentary Matthew 18:34; E-Sword App

"...Though our sins be very numerous and very heinous, yet, upon gospel terms, they may be pardoned. [3.] The forgiving of the debt is the loosing of the debtor; He loosed him. The obligation is cancelled, the judgment vacated; we never walk at liberty till our sins are forgiven. But observe, Though he discharged him from the penalty as a debtor, he did not discharge him from his duty as a servant. The pardon of sin doth not slacken, but strengthen, our obligations to obedience; and we must reckon it a favour that God is pleased to continue such wasteful servants as we have been in such a gainful service as his is...

...(2.) How he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance, so that the judgment against him revived (Mat_18:34)...

...like Ahab, they thought themselves, and others thought them, in a pardoned state, and they made bold with the comfort of it. Intimations enough we have in scripture of the forfeiture of pardons...

...Look how they will answer it another day, who, though they bear the Christian name, persist in the most rigorous and unmerciful treatment of their brethren..." - Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible Matthew 18:34; E-Sword App

"...The case of hypocrites is represented by the guest that had not on a wedding-garment. It concerns all to prepare for the scrutiny; and those, and those only, who put on the Lord Jesus, who have a Christian temper of mind, who live by faith in Christ, and to whom he is all in all, have the wedding-garment. The imputed righteousness of Christ, and the sanctification of the Spirit, are both alike necessary. No man has the wedding-garment by nature, or can form it for himself. The day is coming, when hypocrites will be called to account for all their presumptuous intruding into gospel ordinances, and usurpation of gospel privileges. Take him away. Those that walk unworthy of Christianity, forfeit all the happiness they presumptuously claimed. Our Saviour here passes out of the parable into that which it teaches. Hypocrites go by the light of the gospel itself down to utter darkness. Many are called to the wedding-feast, that is, to salvation, but few have the wedding-garment, the righteousness of Christ, the sanctification of the Spirit. Then let us examine ourselves whether we are in the faith, and seek to be approved by the King. ..." - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary, Matthew 22:11; E-Sword App

...remember His "reward is with Him" when He comes again, and judgment is come while the Everlasting Gospel is going forward [Revelation 14:6-7], therefore, it [this judgment] takes place before he comes...

 

[Keachian]

I had a comment about whittling away two pieces of Scripture till they are unrecognisable and ramming them together, thank you 3AM for demonstrating that this is your modus operandi when it comes to hermeneutics.

 

[Leuko Petra]

Clothing?

Indeed,

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof]. Romans 13:14

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Revelation 7:13

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

etc...

 

[Keachian]

Brother,

Not your brother, I take offense to it as you don't actually view me as one either.

...we have already considered, from the Scriptures...

You have monologued, and I have largely ignored you because your modus operandi is proof by verbosity.

...we have already considered the books investigated before, Daniel 7:10, etc remember?

Which cannot be limited to a judgment against the professed alone, nor is it conducted in lieu of the defendants.

...we have already considered the 2,300 day/years of Daniel 8:13-14,26; 11, etc, and the latter portion was sealed [could not be understood] until the time of the end, when it was opened [Revelation 10], remember?

I believe that all Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled in Christ's first coming, you haven't shown me any reason to not believe this.

...we have already considered the Heavenly court, and who takes part in it there, Daniel 7:10, and how it goes on before the Final phase of the Beast is slain, and how the Son of Man is not seen coming to earth, but is brought before the Father, which is in Heaven, etc, remember?

First coming remember.

...we have already seen how that the Everlasting Gospel is still going forward while the Judgment is come, judgment beginning at/with the House of God [1 Peter 4:17], and with the various texts on the state of the dead and with John 14:2-3; Revelation 22:12 ["reward is with Him"]...

That would be the Cross by which all of God's people are judged as righteous because they are in Christ, judgment has been passed for the people of God and they have been vindicated, not because of their works but because God has cleansed them and clothed them.

...it is a dangerous thing to remove the testimony of the messenger of the Lord from being considered,

Except I have no reason to consider EGW as the messenger of the Lord. Since the topic of this thread from the title is still on the Book of Hebrews, let's have a look at the opening shall we:

At sundry times and in diverse manners God has spoken to us through the prophets, but now in these last days he has spoken to us by his SON. He has appointed HIM as the heir of all things and he created all things through him as well. HE is the radiance of the Glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, HE upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins HE sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to messengers as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

So tell me why? Why would God send another messenger after he has sent his Son? Where in the parable of the Tennants does the landlord send another servant after he has sent his son?

<snip>

Those commentaries don't actually support the IJ, or are you just reading them the same way you read Scripture? Whittling multiple bits down so that they're irrecognisable and ramming them together.

 

[Leuko Petra]

Not your brother, I take offense to it as you don't actually view me as one either. ...

I thought about this long, and came to the conclusion, that no matter what differences of theological position, your 'father' was Noah, and earlier still was Adam, through the flesh, and so was mine. We are brothers in this way, if in no other. Cain and Abel were blood brothers of the flesh, though it turned out to not be so of the spirit. I do not rejoice in that for them, nor us, rather it breaks my heart.

...I will continue to proclaim, in the hopes that when it does come to pass, ye might yet have grace, repentance, mercy and believe, and be yet brother in full...

 

[Leuko Petra]

...First coming remember....

The first coming, The Son of God, came to the Earth and bore humanity as Christ Jesus and in Daniel 7:13 He is born to the Father as the "Son of Man" [thus Humanity already present with Him] and in the very context of Daniel 7:10, in the opening of the books of Judgment. This came long after the events described in the previous chronological verses [Daniel 7:4-8 Babylon - Papal Rome], long after He had ascended from Mt. Olivet. Thrones were "put into place" which means they were moved to that location to then be seated in Judgment. See also the later verse where the Judgment is in session, and they take away the AntiChrists dominion..., then the end comes. Therefore again the judgment under discussion goes forward before Jesus 2nd Advent.

 

[Leuko Petra]

...I believe that all Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled in Christ's first coming, you haven't shown me any reason to not believe this. ...

That is called "preterism" and is a counter-reformation Jesuit doctrine of Rome, and we have already discussed this also - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

Since you state that you "...believe that all Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled in Christ's first coming..." then you just negated any prophecies that speak of His second [and third] coming from the OT, the very scriptures which Jesus, John, Peter, Paul, etc quoted from when speaking of it/them.

Where is your hope in the promised second coming, since that "...all Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled in Christ's first coming..."?

You cannot say from the New Testament, since every single one that speaks of the Second coming is drawn from the Old Testament, just look at the footnotes, middle margins, etc...

 

[Keachian]

That is called "preterism" and is a counter-reformation Jesuit doctrine of Rome, and we have already discussed this also - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

It's actually partial preterism and is the Apostolic view

[and third]

Not gonna happen, nope, never, what is left is Christ coming to judge the quick and the dead.

Since you state that you "...believe that all Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled in Christ's first coming..." then you just negated any prophecies that speak of His second coming from the OT, the very scriptures which Jesus, John, Peter, Paul, etc quoted from when speaking of it/them.

Haven't seen anything relevant to change my position.

Where is your hope in the promised second coming, since that "...all Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled in Christ's first coming..."?

Christ's own prophecy.

You cannot say from the New Testament, since every single one that speaks of the Second coming is drawn from the Old Testament, just look at the footnotes, middle margins, etc...

Give me an example. I did a quick google search and got dispensationalist claptrap which neither of us agree with.

 

[Leuko Petra]

...So tell me why? Why would God send another messenger after he has sent his Son? Where in the parable of the Tennants does the landlord send another servant after he has sent his son?...

That parable was to national Israel, for He had built a tower and digged it, put in a winepress... and unto them was to be given 490 years [Daniel 9], but even then more were still sent afterwards... and sent more even unto us...

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: Matthew 23:34

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Revelation 18:24

The 12 Apostles were sent, Paul was sent, and more were sent, and later still more were sent, Wycliffe, Huss, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Roger Williams, and many many others...

...and even in our day it is written for us:

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. Revelation 10:11

...for we are His body which yet speaketh the Testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of Prophesy [Revelation 1:2,9, 12:17, 19:10, etc]

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. Matthew 10:40

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. John 13:20

 

[Leuko Petra]

...Not gonna happen, nope, never, what is left is Christ coming to judge the quick and the dead....

"The Day of the Lord" is 1,000 years long [even as Peter equates [2 Peter 3:8] the week of God, the earth now being about 6,000 years old, and about 4,000 years old in Peter's day], beginning with the 2nd Advent and ending with the 3rd, see 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; Revelation 20 [righteous dead raised at Jesus coming and caught up into the air, brough back with Him [1 Thessalonians 4:14], the wicked dead not raised until 1,000 years later], Zechariah 14, Isaiah 24:22.

 

[Keachian]

<snip>

I'll say it again, those who are in Christ have been judged because Christ was judged and found pleasing. Those outside of Christ have yet to be judged and they will be found wanting because all outside of Christ will be found so.

The IJ on the other hand says;
Those in Christ can only be found pleasing if they are adherent to the Law, and they will be judged in lieu of their presence. Those outside of Christ will be judged and will be found wanting because they are outside of Christ, however they will be present at their judgment.

Daniel 7:10 is not exclusively for the judgment of the people of God so it cannot be used to support the IJ

 

[Keachian]

"The Day of the Lord" is 1,000 years long [even as Peter equates the week of God, the earth now being about 6,000 years old, and about 4,000 years old in Peter's day], beginning with the 2nd Advent and ending with the 3rd, see Revelation 20 [righteous dead raised at Jesus coming and caught up into the air, brough back with Him [1 Thessalonians 4:14], the wicked dead not raised until 1,000 years later], Zechariah 14, Isaiah 24:22.

Pre-millenialism is just as wrong in SDA belief as it is in Dispy belief

 

[Keachian]

<sophism goes here>

Well that said nothing in a whole lot of words. Are you actually going to give me a reason why there is suddenly someone who Scripture must bow to in the form of a doddering old woman? If I was more of a futurist I would jump on that and link her to the Harlot who seduces the people of God.

 

[Leuko Petra]

I'll say it again, those who are in Christ have been judged because Christ was judged and found pleasing. Those outside of Christ have yet to be judged and they will be found wanting because all outside of Christ will be found so....

OSAS, or its equivalent is in error. It is rather a believing [presently active, continuing, abiding] unto the end shall be saved...

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

...thus the need for the investigaton. Who believes? Again, many say "Lord, lord..."

 

[Keachian]

OSAS, or its equivalent is in error. It is rather a believing [presently active, continuing, abiding] unto the end shall be saved...

I don't believe OSAS, I believe in P, there is a difference that you need to recognise. With Perseverance of the Saints, those true Saints, God's people, will obey, will continue in the faith, and be active, there are many who will at some point in time might confess that Jesus is the Christ, but they will leave and prove that they never were with us.

...thus the need for the investigaton. Who believes? Again, many say "Lord, lord..."

Thus you deny God's omniscience, he needs to investigate and seek out what he should know.