Dear George Zimmerman

[bhsmte]

He did. He stood his ground against a night stalker who he knew nothing about other than it was somebody he did not know, and Martin was under not obligation to run away. The night stalker was carrying a loaded gun and was not afraid to use it. Seeing as Martin is now dead, I say he was in imminent danger of being attacked, injured and killed.

Stalker is not an adequate definition of what was going on, but you can continue using it if you like.

Sure, Martin had absolutely zero obligation to run away, no question about it what so ever.

Since Martin had no way of knowing Zimmerman had a gun (since it was concealed) that gun plays no role in determining assessing danger. Did Martin mention to his friend on the phone the guy had a gun? No, he did mention a few other things though. And if Martin did know (somehow) that Zimmerman had a gun, why would he choose to attack someone with a gun after losing him? Doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, why would Zimmerman notify the police to come to the location, if he was some trigger happy stalker intent on using his weapon? Again, makes no sense.

Zimmerman was not afraid to use his weapon? The 40 seconds of begging for help, goes against that theory.

So what was the imminent threat? Someone following you for a period of time and then the person being followed loses them? This adds up to attacking the person? Again, makes no sense and the only thing that would make sense of this, is backed up by Martin's own words to his friend on the phone and the fact he may have been in a frame of mind to kick this white guys ass. I wonder if the same thing happens if Martin would have been observed by a black neighborhood watch guy?

 

[Avniel]

Zimmerman should not have slammed his nose into Trayvon's fist. That is aggression.

Prove to me that Trayvon hit him at all?

 

[Bedford]

Zimmerman should not have slammed his nose into Trayvon's fist. That is aggression.

Martin should have not grabbed Zimmerman's hand and made Zimmerman's hand grab Zimmerman's gun and shoot himself in the chest just because Zimmerman slammed his nose into Martin's knuckles.

 

[drstevej]

And then there is Zimmmerman rolling on the concrete laughing so hard he suffered scalp abrasions.

 

[Avniel]

Stalker is not an adequate definition of what was going on, but you can continue using it if you like.

Sure, Martin had absolutely zero obligation to run away, no question about it what so ever.

Since Martin had no way of knowing Zimmerman had a gun (since it was concealed) that gun plays no role in determining assessing danger. Did Martin mention to his friend on the phone the guy had a gun? No, he did mention a few other things though. And if Martin did know (somehow) that Zimmerman had a gun, why would he choose to attack someone with a gun after losing him? Doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, why would Zimmerman notify the police to come to the location, if he was some trigger happy stalker intent on using his weapon? Again, makes no sense.

Zimmerman was not afraid to use his weapon? The 40 seconds of begging for help, goes against that theory.

So what was the imminent threat? Someone following you for a period of time and then the person being followed loses them? This adds up to attacking the person? Again, makes no sense and the only thing that would make sense of this, is backed up by Martin's own words to his friend on the phone and the fact he may have been in a frame of mind to kick this white guys ass. I wonder if the same thing happens if Martin would have been observed by a black neighborhood watch guy?

Prove to me that Zimmerman was begging for help? There is more evidence that states that it was Trayvon Martin asking for help and I am not talking about the testimony of mothers.

The fact is if a police officer is walking down the street and you have a concealed weapon and lets say he gets a funny feeling and you start to run and he fires a shot that kills you will that officer be charged?

 

[Bedford]

Stalker is not an adequate definition of what was going on, but you can continue using it if you like.

I will continue to use the word because this word is typed from Martin's perspective and not your 'after the fact' perspective derived from knowing much more than Martin knew about Zimmerman. Martin believed he was being stalked.

 

[drstevej]

Prove to me that Zimmerman was begging for help? There is more evidence that states that it was Trayvon Martin asking for help and I am not talking about the testimony of mothers.

The fact is if a police officer is walking down the street and you have a concealed weapon and lets say he gets a funny feeling and you start to run and he fires a shot that kills you will that officer be charged?

Funny as in "ha! Ha!" or funny as in queasy.

 

[bhsmte]

Prove to me that Zimmerman was begging for help? There is more evidence that states that it was Trayvon Martin asking for help and I am not talking about the testimony of mothers.

The fact is if a police officer is walking down the street and you have a concealed weapon and lets say he gets a funny feeling and you start to run and he fires a shot that kills you will that officer be charged?

What is the evidence that Martin was asking for help?

What does your scenario of the police officer firing on someone running away with a concealed weapon have to do with any of the facts in the Zimmerman case? Please explain the relevance.

 

[Bedford]

And then there is Zimmmerman rolling on the concrete laughing so hard he suffered scalp abrasions.

That is a plausible theory, that the wounds were self-inflicted.

 

[Avniel]

And then there is Zimmmerman rolling on the concrete laughing so hard he suffered scalp abrasions.

That brings up more questions than it does prove that zimmerman is innocent. With an injury like that the first response of the arriving police officer is to have Zimmerman medically evaluated. The first responder would have had Zimmerman carted to the hospital. How does a police officer value a persons account of a situation when there head has been slammed on the sidewalk for 40 seconds. It seems to me at the very least there would be memory issues.

 

[Bedford]

That brings up more questions than it does prove that zimmerman is innocent. With an injury like that the first response of the arriving police officer is to have Zimmerman medically evaluated. The first responder would have had Zimmerman carted to the hospital. How does a police officer value a persons account of a situation when there head has been slammed on the sidewalk for 40 seconds. It seems to me at the very least there would be memory issues.

People who 'repeatedly' have their head slammed into concrete suffer concussions and bruising. Zimmerman had two thin abrasions and no proof of a concussion.

 

[super animator]

People who 'repeatedly' have their head slammed into concrete suffer concussions and bruising. Zimmerman had two thin abrasions and no proof of a concussion.

Are you inferring that he lied about it?

 

[bhsmte]

That brings up more questions than it does prove that zimmerman is innocent. With an injury like that the first response of the arriving police officer is to have Zimmerman medically evaluated. The first responder would have had Zimmerman carted to the hospital. How does a police officer value a persons account of a situation when there head has been slammed on the sidewalk for 40 seconds. It seems to me at the very least there would be memory issues.

Let me make this simple. It is highly unlikely that Zimmerman's head was hit against cement for 40 seconds and the defense never claimed this at trial. Eye witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman throwing punches, so some of the welts, nose and other marks to the side and front of Zimmerman's face were from blows (seen by the eye witness). The expert medical examiner testified, that Zimmerman suffered at least 6 blows to the back of the head which likely came from hitting the concrete. Some of the hits to the concrete may have been hard, some less so.

The expert witness had more credibility in this case than anyone (IMO). The guy has a reputation to uphold to, that he has earned his entire life and he is not throwing that down the tubes for anyone at this stage of his career. He explained the injuries very well and this is all that matters folks; did Zimmerman reasonably feel he was at risk for severe bodily harm or death when he pulled the trigger after the 40 seconds of pleading for help?

To me, if someone looks at all the evidence produced at the trial and claims there is no way Zimmerman could have felt a reasonable fear for great bodily harm, is simply so married to their beliefs, they refuse to acknowledge the evidence.

 

[Avniel]

What is the evidence that Martin was asking for help?

What does your scenario of the police officer firing on someone running away with a concealed weapon have to do with any of the facts in the Zimmerman case? Please explain the relevance.

The experts testimony that was not allowed to be used, he testified that it was Trayvon Martin asking for help.

Ok let me break it down for you. If the legal term perceived threat is a very broad term in that if I think you are a threat and it is......understandable I have a right to defend myself....no arguments there. However let's say that the reason I think you are a threat is nothing more then a gut feeling and it is not understandable.....but for some reason....dumb luck perhaps I am right.....that gut feeling that can not be explained was correct......did I have a right to defend myself? The answer is yes, legal it can never be proven that my assumption was not ungrounded because I was right.

 

[bhsmte]

The experts testimony that was not allowed to be used, he testified that it was Trayvon Martin asking for help.

Ok let me break it down for you. If the legal term perceived threat is a very broad term in that if I think you are a threat and it is......understandable I have a right to defend myself....no arguments there. However let's say that the reason I think you are a threat is nothing more then a gut feeling and it is not understandable.....but for some reason....dumb luck perhaps I am right.....that gut feeling that can not be explained was correct......did I have a right to defend myself? The answer is yes, legal it can never be proven that my assumption was not ungrounded because I was right.

Gut feeling?

Gut feelings don't make it in a court of law unless you can show you had evidence to prove there was a threat present, before acting with aggression.

You are really reaching big time and aren't making a whole lot of sense. There has to be some logic behind theories that are explainable and withstand the scrutiny of the law.

 

[Avniel]

Let me make this simple. It is highly unlikely that Zimmerman's head was hit against cement for 40 seconds and the defense never claimed this at trial. Eye witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman throwing punches, so some of the welts, nose and other marks to the side and front of Zimmerman's face were from blows (seen by the eye witness). The expert medical examiner testified, that Zimmerman suffered at least 6 blows to the back of the head which likely came from hitting the concrete. Some of the hits to the concrete may have been hard, some less so.

The expert witness had more credibility in this case than anyone (IMO). The guy has a reputation to uphold to, that he has earned his entire life and he is not throwing that down the tubes for anyone at this stage of his career. He explained the injuries very well and this is all that matters folks; did Zimmerman reasonably feel he was at risk for severe bodily harm or death when he pulled the trigger after the 40 seconds of pleading for help?

To me, if someone looks at all the evidence produced at the trial and claims there is no way Zimmerman could have felt a reasonable fear for great bodily harm, is simply so married to their beliefs, they refuse to acknowledge the evidence.

Perhaps but let us look at this in another light.

Zimmerman got out of his car, where was his gun, what was the status of the safety mechanism, was the gun cocked while he was on the ground or before, why was Trayvon hiding in the bushes preparing to jump out on Zimmerman while on a cell phone(that doesn't make sense), why did Trayvon prepare for a fight while on a cell phone wouldn't he at least have put it in his pocket, why wasn't Zimmerman given medical attention by first responders, where was Zimmerman's blood on Trayvon, how did Trayvon reach for a gun that was in the back of Zimmerman if Zimmerman was on the ground, where was the mud on Zimmerman?

It is several questions that don't make the case that simple I don't think you can pretend to think based on the evidence that you know exactly what happened.

 

[Avniel]

Gut feeling?

Gut feelings don't make it in a court of law unless you can show you had evidence to prove there was a threat present, before acting with aggression.

You are really reaching big time and aren't making a whole lot of sense. There has to be some logic behind theories that are explainable and withstand the scrutiny of the law.

It is a very hard concept to explain and I don't pretend that the law is logic or just. The reality is aggression based on a perceived threat can be proven if that threat is a reality. If that threat isn't a reality then you need to prove that the perceived threat was reasonable. Once the perceived threat is found to be a real threat there is no way to disprove it not being reasonable.

 

[MachZer0]

Don't you read and follow the discussions? My points were quite clear. If you no longer want to discuss this topic, nobody is stopping you from leaving the thread in search of more current topics.

While your points may seem clear to you, they are based on fiction, nothing more

 

[bhsmte]

Perhaps but let us look at this in another light.

Zimmerman got out of his car, where was his gun, what was the status of the safety mechanism, was the gun cocked while he was on the ground or before, why was Trayvon hiding in the bushes preparing to jump out on Zimmerman while on a cell phone(that doesn't make sense), why did Trayvon prepare for a fight while on a cell phone wouldn't he at least have put it in his pocket, why wasn't Zimmerman given medical attention by first responders, where was Zimmerman's blood on Trayvon, how did Trayvon reach for a gun that was in the back of Zimmerman if Zimmerman was on the ground, where was the mud on Zimmerman?

It is several questions that don't make the case that simple I don't think you can pretend to think based on the evidence that you know exactly what happened.

All these were explained ad nauseum at the trial and they are only open ended if you didn't see how they were handled at the trial. The prosecution pulled out every stop to try and make their case and it failed, because there was more evidence Zimmerman acted in self defense, than to support what the prosecution was claiming.

 

[MachZer0]

And I am arguing that there is no witness that saw Martin 'repeatedly' bashing Zimmerman's head into the concrete. If you want to address my argument then challenge it with some facts.

There indeed was a witness and he sported wounds as evidence