The Existence of Freewill

[WarriorAngel]

Yeah, that part, which you bolded for emphasis, was missing from your previous post. Thanks for bringing it up.

We can only obey God as we should by His grace alone (but not by faith alone). Apart from Him, we can do nothing. I cannot underestimate the importance of grace and how must we must trust in God's graciousness and mercy at all times. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

I, for one, don't expect to point to a mountain of my own good works and expect them to get me into heaven, but my relationship to Christ (which isn't to say that good works don't count but I know that my good works are done in Christ which makes them meritorious...apart from Him, we can do nothing). No Christ, no merit. No Christ, no hope of salvation.

Unfortunately, while some of the commandments are easier than others, the first one, "Fear, love and trust God above all things" is toughest. I definitely fear God. Terrified of Him, in fact. The exquisite ways He in which could hurt me are uncountable (hell, right?). How can one love and trust someone capable and willing to do such things (do you know how to answer this in less than five words because I do)?

This leads down other roads I don't need to go down here. My point is, grace is absolutely necessary if we are to be saved. It is by God's grace that we are saved. Even the most righteous saint is saved solely because of God's grace towards that saint which was won for him by Christ.

Fear is but a part of grace.
Its part of the gifts of the Spirit.
How many folks who do not care what He says or does - attend Church or even think about Him at all.
Thats a lack of fear - thats a lack of cooperating with grace.

BTW - and i am still trying to find a way to explain this - God is pure - perfect - magnificent - awe inspiring - beautiful - loving - and formidable.

Humans - well - we sin. Many times we enjoy sinning.
What is sin? SIn is a disregard at least in part to - being in His Presence. Benefit of the doubt - we dont comprehend His magnificence.

Now - God is beyond words - so let's just say - to be without Him has to be the most hineous horrendous experience filled with an absence of His love - which is hate.
Without His Presence filling us with amply and over flowing peace and all things wonderful - separated from Him is all things disgusting and painful.

God allows us to choose in this life where we want to be.
In Heaven filled to capacity with all things sensational. Or perma separated all things torturous..?

He created the abyss - as a refuge from His site. Angels and souls who decided His love wasnt what they wanted - are given the MERCY to enter into the abyss.
The abyss shields them from the absolute torture of seeing Him - WHom they cannot be near.
In hell - they know He exists and in His absence - they can scream and yell all obscenities about Him, they can hate Him, spew all garbage about Him and ridicule Him, and all that they do to release their agony of - NOT being near Him.
Its sealed from Him and all that is good [which is Him] - and they suffer BUT they suffer less for a few reasons i gander.
1- The agony of seeing Him and not 'feeling His Presence' is too much.
2-Their soul could not cry out against Him - because of the fright. SO being unseen - they can spew their hatred and live in that hate - assuredly one way to releasing their agony.

Thats not 5 words.
But the concept of hell derived from the angels needed eternal separation from Him...for their own sakes. Humans who are influenced and accept the temptations to do evil - go where it is reserved for the fallen.

But does God wish anyone there?
No.
He is all love - and in some difficult way - hell is an outward measure of that LOVE.
Being in HIS Presence would be unbearable to the souls.

As bad as hell is - and the complaints are unending - its worse to be where you must know and see and remember what you lost - in a magnified way.

One of those things you will understand better in Heaven - we dont fully get it cos - we simply havent been in His Presence to know the extreme of His Essence.

 

[Needing_Grace]

Fear is but a part of grace.
Its part of the gifts of the Spirit.
How many folks who do not care what He says or does - attend Church or even think about Him at all.
Thats a lack of fear - thats a lack of cooperating with grace.

BTW - and i am still trying to find a way to explain this - God is pure - perfect - magnificent - awe inspiring - beautiful - loving - and formidable.

Humans - well - we sin. Many times we enjoy sinning.
What is sin? SIn is a disregard at least in part to - being in His Presence. Benefit of the doubt - we dont comprehend His magnificence.

Now - God is beyond words - so let's just say - to be without Him has to be the most hineous horrendous experience filled with an absence of His love - which is hate.
Without His Presence filling us with amply and over flowing peace and all things wonderful - separated from Him is all things disgusting and painful.

God allows us to choose in this life where we want to be.
In Heaven filled to capacity with all things sensational. Or perma separated all things torturous..?

He created the abyss - as a refuge from His site. Angels and souls who decided His love wasnt what they wanted - are given the MERCY to enter into the abyss.
The abyss shields them from the absolute torture of seeing Him - WHom they cannot be near.
In hell - they know He exists and in His absence - they can scream and yell all obscenities about Him, they can hate Him, spew all garbage about Him and ridicule Him, and all that they do to release their agony of - NOT being near Him.
Its sealed from Him and all that is good [which is Him] - and they suffer BUT they suffer less for a few reasons i gander.
1- The agony of seeing Him and not 'feeling His Presence' is too much.
2-Their soul could not cry out against Him - because of the fright. SO being unseen - they can spew their hatred and live in that hate - assuredly one way to releasing their agony.

Thats not 5 words.
But the concept of hell derived from the angels needed eternal separation from Him...for their own sakes. Humans who are influenced and accept the temptations to do evil - go where it is reserved for the fallen.

But does God wish anyone there?
No.
He is all love - and in some difficult way - hell is an outward measure of that LOVE.
Being in HIS Presence would be unbearable to the souls.

As bad as hell is - and the complaints are unending - its worse to be where you must know and see and remember what you lost - in a magnified way.

One of those things you will understand better in Heaven - we dont fully get it cos - we simply havent been in His Presence to know the extreme of His Essence.

All that and...well, I don't see "Christ died for you" anywhere in there...at all.

I said that I am terrified by God because I know what kind of scoundrel and sinner I am. I can imagine some pretty terrible punishments that He could impose upon me justly. I have definite reason to be terrified of Him.

Telling me that God is wonderful and great and good and holy only makes that fear WORSE, not better. I'm a scoundrel, a sinner full of sinful desires and wishes. Sometimes, I like my sin. The Ten Commandments only shows me what a scoundrel I am and how good God in.

I definitely deserve His temporal and eternal punishment...He demands that I fear, love and trust Him and I find myself unable to do any of the three even close to correctly.

So, how can I love and trust Someone Whom I am completely unworthy of?

You type all that and don't even bring up the central theme of the Christian faith..."Christ died for YOU."

With that, you get all of God's love in one package...Christ's incarnation, life, death, burial and resurrection...all to save us poor sinners. You get His desire to be with us...even to death on a CROSS.

It also helps to allay that fear that God wants to torture me in uncountable and exquisite ways because we know that He paid the infinite debt of my sins for me on Calvary 2000ish years back and every day a Mass is celebrated and Calvary is made present to a congregation of Catholics gathered around Christ in Word and Sacrament.

That death was even for ME because we believe that Christ died to pay for the sins of all. There is no "limited atonement."

What ever happened to focusing on the basics anymore? Do we have to make it so complicated that we forget the very message of the Gospel!?

 

[WarriorAngel]

All that and...well, I don't see "Christ died for you" anywhere in there...at all.

I said that I am terrified by God because I know what kind of scoundrel and sinner I am. I can imagine some pretty terrible punishments that He could impose upon me justly. I have definite reason to be terrified of Him.

Telling me that God is wonderful and great and good and holy only makes that fear WORSE, not better. I'm a scoundrel, a sinner full of sinful desires and wishes. Sometimes, I like my sin. The Ten Commandments only shows me what a scoundrel I am and how good God in.

I definitely deserve His temporal and eternal punishment...He demands that I fear, love and trust Him and I find myself unable to do any of the three even close to correctly.

So, how can I love and trust Someone Whom I am completely unworthy of?

You type all that and don't even bring up the central theme of the Christian faith..."Christ died for YOU."

With that, you get all of God's love in one package...Christ's incarnation, life, death, burial and resurrection...all to save us poor sinners. You get His desire to be with us...even to death on a CROSS.

It also helps to allay that fear that God wants to torture me in uncountable and exquisite ways because we know that He paid the infinite debt of my sins for me on Calvary 2000ish years back and every day a Mass is celebrated and Calvary is made present to a congregation of Catholics gathered around Christ in Word and Sacrament.

That death was even for ME because we believe that Christ died to pay for the sins of all. There is no "limited atonement."

What ever happened to focusing on the basics anymore? Do we have to make it so complicated that we forget the very message of the Gospel!?

I was focusing on your fear of death and why you shouldnt be and that God isnt some ogre who 'wants' ppl in hell. I was trying to show you its not what God wants - its what the soul wants due to its hatred of Him.

It seems you already understand the love of God - thru His death.

IF we really got what we deserved - none should enter Heaven - ever.
Its - i am going to guess - 80% is our desire and attempt to please Him, think of Him, talk to Him, and stay as close to Him as possible even why things are dry - as well as when times are good.
There is no actual percent - just using an analogy to show its mostly how we try to love Him and stay by Him.

His Mercy is enormous. OR if He had no mercy - He certainly didnt have to - nor would He become as us and then suffer and die.

Focus on YOUR love for Him.
Certainly the grace of fear is the 1st step to desire. The next step is seeing that you cooperated with grace and let fear of the Lord lead you closer to Him.

Each person has a different gift from grace. God knows precisely that which we need to 'come to Him'... and then the journey begins. Your fear of losing Him is a great gift.
Your new name - Living Grace.

I strongly urge you to read St Faustina.
Now - is the time you discover the Heart of Jesus.

 

[Needing_Grace]

I was focusing on your fear of death and why you shouldnt be and that God isnt some ogre who 'wants' ppl in hell. I was trying to show you its not what God wants - its what the soul wants due to its hatred of Him.

It seems you already understand the love of God - thru His death.

And that's what you point out. God loves you so much that He became man and took the punishment you deserved for your sins because He wants to be with you for all eternity.

BTW, it's not fear of death, it's terror of God.

They're two different things.

IF we really got what we deserved - none should enter Heaven - ever.
Its - i am going to guess - 80% is our desire and attempt to please Him, think of Him, talk to Him, and stay as close to Him as possible even why things are dry - as well as when times are good.
There is no actual percent - just using an analogy to show its mostly how we try to love Him and stay by Him.

This is where we disagree. While I can cooperate, all I really contribute to my salvation is my sin. He provides the grace that allows me to even cooperate. I believe that at the end of the day, I can only point to Christ and what He did for me as my only hope of heaven.

His Mercy is enormous. OR if He had no mercy - He certainly didnt have to - nor would He become as us and then suffer and die.

That's the whole point, isn't it?

Christ died to redeem lost sinners to they can be with God in heaven.

Focus on YOUR love for Him.
Certainly the grace of fear is the 1st step to desire. The next step is seeing that you cooperated with grace and let fear of the Lord lead you closer to Him.

Ah, here we disagree again.

I thought I was clear. I am terrified by God. I don't have the fear of "awe," it's the terror of the guilty and condemned sinner before a righteous and holy God.

But that same God loved me, a poor sinful creature, and became man to pay the price due for my sins and rose again from the dead so I can be joined to Him forever.

My love for Him is only because He first loved me because that love of Him is a gift from Him as well.

Each person has a different gift from grace. God knows precisely that which we need to 'come to Him'... and then the journey begins. Your fear of losing Him is a great gift.
Your new name - Living Grace.

I strongly urge you to read St Faustina.
Now - is the time you discover the Heart of Jesus.

If you mean vocation, yes. We're all called to be sanctified through different journeys.

Right here, I'm talking about how do I know I'm right before God and how does He see me? Even when I go to confession, I live in even greater terror that God was somehow displeased with my confession, did not accept it, that my sins are not forgiven because I defected the Sacrament and every time I receive the the Lord's Body and Blood, I'm placing my soul under further judgment.

Oh, and I believe that I will be needing God's grace until the day I die for it is indeed only by God's grace that I can even hope to be saved.

 

[WarriorAngel]

And that's what you point out. God loves you so much that He became man and took the punishment you deserved for your sins because He wants to be with you for all eternity.

BTW, it's not fear of death, it's terror of God.

They're two different things.

You wouldnt have fear if you didnt fear the loss of Him.
Its the same thing. You dont want to go to hell because it is a permanent separation that doesnt end.
To be away from Love is to be in pain and torture.

This is where we disagree. While I can cooperate, all I really contribute to my salvation is my sin. He provides the grace that allows me to even cooperate. I believe that at the end of the day, I can only point to Christ and what He did for me as my only hope of heaven.

That's the whole point, isn't it?

Christ died to redeem lost sinners to they can be with God in heaven.

The only thing i think you are missing is that outside of cooperation with grace [which is working in you obviously] - you dont desire God - His laws and you dont fear the loss of Him.
Thats a choice.
Scriptures show us ppl can and do walk away from Him.
They make the choice to accept the doubts - and dismiss grace.

Ah, here we disagree again.

I thought I was clear. I am terrified by God. I don't have the fear of "awe," it's the terror of the guilty and condemned sinner before a righteous and holy God.

The word fear in scriptures is literal fear.
Its like fear of an enemy... as it is used for the same sense.
Its a modern concept to suggest it merely means awe.
But because of fear it gives hope.
Strange as that seems.

Fear of the Lord
The seventh and final gift of the Holy Spirit is the fear of the Lord, and perhaps no other gift of the Holy Spirit is so misunderstood. We think of fear and hope as opposites, but the fear of the Lord confirms the theological virtue of hope. This gift of the Holy Spirit gives us the desire not to offend God, as well as the certainty that God will supply us the grace that we need in order to keep from offending Him. Our desire not to offend God is more than simply a sense of duty; like piety, the fear of the Lord arises out of love.

But that same God loved me, a poor sinful creature, and became man to pay the price due for my sins and rose again from the dead so I can be joined to Him forever.

Amen.

My love for Him is only because He first loved me because that love of Him is a gift from Him as well.

^ This is in scriptures - did you read that OR is God leading you to understand that?

If you mean vocation, yes. We're all called to be sanctified through different journeys.

Right here, I'm talking about how do I know I'm right before God and how does He see me? Even when I go to confession, I live in even greater terror that God was somehow displeased with my confession, did not accept it, that my sins are not forgiven because I defected the Sacrament and every time I receive the the Lord's Body and Blood, I'm placing my soul under further judgment.

Oh, and I believe that I will be needing God's grace until the day I die for it is indeed only by God's grace that I can even hope to be saved.

You are bordering on scrupulosity...fearing your confession isnt good enough.

Its good enough. I think IMHO - a good plenary indulgence will relax you.
That wipes the slate clean... and its a relief.
I go 8 days before or after or on Aug 2 to confession, pray for the Pope and receive Communion.
Its coming up - that should relieve you.

It sounds like you have made quite a stride... and i think you are in the right place. You need to learn to forgive yourself - because God has forgiven you - as He promised He would. A contrite heart is what He seeks. You have it.
Now trust Him...

I know scrupulosity. I have and am overcoming it myself so i know the whole 'knees quake' going to Communion thing.

God isnt waiting over us for that 'Ah hah' moment to catch us in an act to destroy us in that second. No - He is merciful and infuses more graces as we need it. IE - you wont fall if you continue to remember the price He paid was great because His love is great and HE wants you and has said 'No one can snatch from His hands - that the Father has given to Him because no one can snatch from the Father.'

He pours on more grace as needed. Even in dark times - He is still there - in fact loving us more - because He knows we gain merit as we struggle but dont give up.

We - do not give up. Because this is how we act - when times are 'dry' - we continue - even if our emotions just arent 'there' - ergo our free will to persevere. Grace seems distant - even tho it doesnt stop. This is the time when it comes - we begin to show our love in return.

Thats what tests are.

 

[Needing_Grace]

You wouldnt have fear if you didnt fear the loss of Him.
Its the same thing. You dont want to go to hell because it is a permanent separation that doesnt end.
To be away from Love is to be in pain and torture.

It's because of the torture that I experience terror.

The only thing i think you are missing is that outside of cooperation with grace [which is working in you obviously] - you dont desire God - His laws and you dont fear the loss of Him.
Thats a choice.
Scriptures show us ppl can and do walk away from Him.
They make the choice to accept the doubts - and dismiss grace.

Here's the thing...I have always believed that it is God's grace at work all the way through salvation, from first to last. He creates the "conviction" through the hearing of the Word, particularly the demands of God's law. This leads the sinner to flee to Christ in repentance for their sins. Yes, one can walk away but willfully committing a mortal sin, but that is incredibly easy to do with nary a moment's thought.

The word fear in scriptures is literal fear.
Its like fear of an enemy... as it is used for the same sense.
Its a modern concept to suggest it merely means awe.
But because of fear it gives hope.
Strange as that seems.

Fear of the Lord
The seventh and final gift of the Holy Spirit is the fear of the Lord, and perhaps no other gift of the Holy Spirit is so misunderstood. We think of fear and hope as opposites, but the fear of the Lord confirms the theological virtue of hope. This gift of the Holy Spirit gives us the desire not to offend God, as well as the certainty that God will supply us the grace that we need in order to keep from offending Him. Our desire not to offend God is more than simply a sense of duty; like piety, the fear of the Lord arises out of love.

So, we're talking about something like terror instead of a holy fear that arises out of love.

Amen.

^ This is in scriptures - did you read that OR is God leading you to understand that?

Scripture. I tend to go to Scripture first to learn about theology. It's a carry over from my old days as a non-Catholic Christian. What's different now is I realize that the Church plays an essential role in presenting the Word, not only teaching what the Scriptures teach but giving us clear teaching where the Scripture is silent or unclear (Apostolic Tradition).

You are bordering on scrupulosity...fearing your confession isnt good enough.

Ya think?

Its good enough. I think IMHO - a good plenary indulgence will relax you.
That wipes the slate clean... and its a relief.
I go 8 days before or after or on Aug 2 to confession, pray for the Pope and receive Communion.
Its coming up - that should relieve you.

Except one of the conditions for a plenary indulgence requires a special grace to achieve: "a spirit of detachment from all sin, even venial sin."

That's about as possible, apart from a special grace, as achieving perfect contrition.

It sounds like you have made quite a stride... and i think you are in the right place. You need to learn to forgive yourself - because God has forgiven you - as He promised He would. A contrite heart is what He seeks. You have it.
Now trust Him...

I'm not as contrite as you'd think. I'm kind of double minded at this moment. At one moment, I can be engaged in some kind of depraved thought or action and the next, thumbing through a hymnal.

I fear Him...I find it hard to love and trust Him.

I'm in terror of what He'll do to me if I die but I'm still not trusting of Him enough to believe that He loves ME and wants to forgive me.

Point me to Jesus on the Cross and say, "NG, that was done for YOU!" Point me to my baptism and say, you were incorporated into God's family that night...you were buried with Him and raised again to new life in Him! You are His! Point me to Christ on the altar, His true Body and Blood appearing as bread and wine, given and shed for me. The promise of Christ in John 20:21-22 and the Words of Absolution spoken in Confession...

I want something I can look to, objectively, not mysticism and guesses.

I know scrupulosity. I have and am overcoming it myself so i know the whole 'knees quake' going to Communion thing.

God isnt waiting over us for that 'Ah hah' moment to catch us in an act to destroy us in that second. No - He is merciful and infuses more graces as we need it. IE - you wont fall if you continue to remember the price He paid was great because His love is great and HE wants you and has said 'No one can snatch from His hands - that the Father has given to Him because no one can snatch from the Father.'

He pours on more grace as needed. Even in dark times - He is still there - in fact loving us more - because He knows we gain merit as we struggle but dont give up.

We - do not give up. Because this is how we act - when times are 'dry' - we continue - even if our emotions just arent 'there' - ergo our free will to persevere. Grace seems distant - even tho it doesnt stop. This is the time when it comes - we begin to show our love in return.

Thats what tests are.

So, isn't that the time to pour on the proclamation of the good news of the Gospel even more fervently?

You're a sinner but Christ died for YOU!

His blood was shed for the forgiveness of YOUR sins!

I'd think that by keeping our eyes on Christ, lifted up like the serpent on the pole in Moses' day, we can stand firm trusting Him as the source of everything in our salvation, particularly the grace to persevere.

 

[elopez]

I disagree that you are forced. Nothing is technically forcing you to type. However, past causes have created your mind. Even though you technically can stop typing, your mind has been shaped to continue. That's the thing no one addresses. Since our minds and wills are ultimately the product of the causes that came before them, I'm not seeing how anyone can argue that our will, which is entirely formed by outside causes, is somehow free and can be held responsible.

You say you disagree that I am forced yet you just claimed nothing is forcing me to type, which is actually what I'm saying. So that you first say you disagree is a little beguiling to me.

When I say nothing is forcing me to type I mean just that - no outside factor is making me type. I am typing because I have control of my body and the way I want to move it. That is how free will is defined considering compatibilism. Free will is the ability to act according to one's determined motives without another individual forcing us. As long as I am not coerced into action I am free. If you point a gun at my head which would sure as heck make me do just about anything, I am not free as I am doing something you would be forcing me to do, and it would not be something I desire to do anyway.

When we get to the subject of moral accountability we realize that LFW or incompatibilism is unfounded, so we don't need to relate the concept of PAP to free will, which in turn means that PAP does not relate to moral responsibility. The question then becomes, "what is related to moral responsibility?" And to me that's obvious, our mind. Our mind is exactly what holds us accountable for our actions because A) we understand the motives for our actions and B) we understand that our motives that we act out physically have consequences that affect other people. Our minds being determined in whatever sense takes neither A or B away, and thus we are held accountable for our actions.

 

[WarriorAngel]

It's because of the torture that I experience terror.

Here's the thing...I have always believed that it is God's grace at work all the way through salvation, from first to last. He creates the "conviction" through the hearing of the Word, particularly the demands of God's law. This leads the sinner to flee to Christ in repentance for their sins. Yes, one can walk away but willfully committing a mortal sin, but that is incredibly easy to do with nary a moment's thought.

So, we're talking about something like terror instead of a holy fear that arises out of love.

Scripture. I tend to go to Scripture first to learn about theology. It's a carry over from my old days as a non-Catholic Christian. What's different now is I realize that the Church plays an essential role in presenting the Word, not only teaching what the Scriptures teach but giving us clear teaching where the Scripture is silent or unclear (Apostolic Tradition).

Ya think?

Except one of the conditions for a plenary indulgence requires a special grace to achieve: "a spirit of detachment from all sin, even venial sin."

That's about as possible, apart from a special grace, as achieving perfect contrition.

I'm not as contrite as you'd think. I'm kind of double minded at this moment. At one moment, I can be engaged in some kind of depraved thought or action and the next, thumbing through a hymnal.

I fear Him...I find it hard to love and trust Him.

I'm in terror of what He'll do to me if I die but I'm still not trusting of Him enough to believe that He loves ME and wants to forgive me.

Point me to Jesus on the Cross and say, "NG, that was done for YOU!" Point me to my baptism and say, you were incorporated into God's family that night...you were buried with Him and raised again to new life in Him! You are His! Point me to Christ on the altar, His true Body and Blood appearing as bread and wine, given and shed for Me. The promise of Christ in John 20:21-22 and the Words of Absolution spoken in Confession...

I want something I can look to, objectively, not mysticism and guesses.

So, isn't that the time to pour on the proclamation of the good news of the Gospel even more fervently?

You're a sinner but Christ died for YOU!

His blood was shed for the forgiveness of YOUR sins!

I'd think that by keeping our eyes on Christ, lifted up like the serpent on the pole in Moses' day, we can stand firm trusting Him as the source of everything in our salvation, particularly the grace to persevere.

Yes NG - He died. More than that - He wanted to...
If we were merely unwanted puppets - He would not have done so.
The pagans believed they were puppets in the theater of their gods.

Our God is real. He loved us from the time He conceived of us - in His thots.
He knew us all - and when He picked up the cross and suffered up to Calvary - He knew you would eventually get the message He was 'sending' you. But He had to leave it with someone He could trust - so you would get it ...
He left it in His Church...

I am sure the constant 'mind attacks' will come - ie - visions of stuff that tempt - but i am also sure the more you pray the Our Father the more they will dissipate.
Going slowly when saying 'lead us not into temptation.'... and dismissing them - quicker and quicker will become part of you rather than the former self.

No one said putting on the new man was instantaneous. In a fallen world - with vices - and the father of lies running amock - we have to understand strength comes - slowly - but surely. And the more we beat ourselves up over falling tho trying - the more we please satan because he wants us to fall into despair or lose hope thinking - i say thinking - that its impossible.

All i can tell you is saying the Our Father - and trusting in our petition to Him - slowly changes things...for the better.

 

[LilLamb219]

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