The "Self"

[Davian]

Does the concept of a "self" play an important part in your philosophy?

I don't think so.

How and why is it important to you and/or crucial to your philosophy?

It is important to me that I have a good layman's level of understanding of how the world around us works, from biology to astrophysics.

Consciousness/neuroscience is biology.

How do you conceptualize the "self" (what´s your definition of the word, what are the particularities of your concept, what makes the "self" - as opposed to characteristics you possibly don´t include in the "self" -, etc. etc.)?

I would defer to the work of philosophers Metzinger and Dennett.

The 'self' is a construct, a result of processes in the brain used for information processing. It includes a perception of the human senses, filtered and interpreted by other brain processes that the 'self' may or may not be aware of (the 'self' may be intellectually aware of things like optical illusions, which demonstrate the presence of unconscious information processing occurring between our physical senses and our awareness/self).

Do you ascribe some sort of permanence to the "self", or is that even a defining criterium, in your concept?

No permanence at all. My 'self' will disappear when I go to sleep tonight, and tomorrow, following sufficient sleep, my body will wake, and my brain will, hopefully, will once again construct this 'self', based on the memories at hand. I will remember being me.

I would support the hypothesize that faults in the parts of the brain responsible these processes (due to age, disease, or brain trauma) are what appear symptomatically as schizophrenia, dementia, etc.

 

[Davian]

I'd say the 70 year old probably can be said to be the same person as when they were 2 years old, because of the continuation of the mind. There haven't been large quick shifts in the mind.

It could also be true that they are a different person in some sense. The personality you identify as being that of the adult, could be radically different from that of the child. Perhaps that is also true with some brain damage.

I doubt it is necessary to draw a hard line, and say that the adult either is or isn't the same person as the child. It depends how you look at it.

That could still mean teleportation would be death in some sense though.

I always found that to be an awkward component of Star Trek, particularly when they used it to 'save the day/person' in an episode.

I think of the transporter as the 'shredder': it kills you, then constructs an exact copy of you in another location.

See the science fiction novel Rogue Moon. for an interesting (although unscientific) application of teleportation.

 

[bricklayer]

Does the concept of a "self" play an important part in your philosophy?

How and why is it important to you and/or crucial to your philosophy?

How do you conceptualize the "self" (what´s your definition of the word, what are the particularities of your concept, what makes the "self" - as opposed to characteristics you possibly don´t include in the "self" -, etc. etc.)?


Do you ascribe some sort of permanence to the "self", or is that even a defining criterium, in your concept?

TIA

The concept of self has much less affect than the perception of self.

"Self" is non-other.

My self is a complex of actuality and potentiality. My self exists contingently. My self is a complex of intellectual, emotional, willful and biological processes.

 

[Illuminaughty]

I particularly like your sig-line. Is that your work?

No I read it on a web page a few months back but I can't remember exactly who said it. I can't even find the web page anymore.

 

[louise sheinholtz]

The self, the human organism, isn't a fixed, separate thing, it's a part of one flowing, continuous process called the universe. Just like in a whirlpool, the atoms or energy in our bodies is always changing, flowing in and out of us. It goes in as water, milk, steak, vegetables, oxygen, sunlight, and then comes out as excrement, carbon-monoxide, sweat, tears, babies, language, music, poetry, art, science, literature, ect.


I agree, the distinction between self and other is something we made up. We broke the world into bits to help make sense of it and talk about it, but in reality everything is one.

..................................................................................................................
The self is not an illusion , but created by God for the purpose of our salvation. It is a living identity.
The self experiences trials and tribulations.
It is not an illusion, it is a place that harbors both good and evil. The self is a body created by God, it is not an illusion.
And anyone who thinks evil is not hidden in the self has not experienced it's reality.
Louise

 

[Paradoxum]

I always found that to be an awkward component of Star Trek, particularly when they used it to 'save the day/person' in an episode.

I think of the transporter as the 'shredder': it kills you, then constructs an exact copy of you in another location.

See the science fiction novel Rogue Moon. for an interesting (although unscientific) application of teleportation.

I haven't really watched Star Trek, but I think real teleportation works like that. I doubt I would use teleportation, if it became possible.

 

[louise sheinholtz]

I don't think so.

It is important to me that I have a good layman's level of understanding of how the world around us works, from biology to astrophysics.

Consciousness/neuroscience is biology.

I would defer to the work of philosophers Metzinger and Dennett.

The 'self' is a construct, a result of processes in the brain used for information processing. It includes a perception of the human senses, filtered and interpreted by other brain processes that the 'self' may or may not be aware of (the 'self' may be intellectually aware of things like optical illusions, which demonstrate the presence of unconscious information processing occurring between our physical senses and our awareness/self).

....................................................................................................................

No permanence at all. My 'self' will disappear when I go to sleep tonight, and tomorrow, following sufficient sleep, my body will wake, and my brain will, hopefully, will once again construct this 'self', based on the memories at hand. I will remember being me.
...................................................................................................................
Sometimes waking up and still being " me", would tell me there is no growth.

quote,
"I would support the hypothesize that faults in the parts of the brain responsible these processes (due to age, disease, or brain trauma) are what appear symptomatically as schizophrenia, dementia, etc."

These are mostly caused by sin, the self has not grown and the mind and body deteriorates. Call it due to age or disease etc. but the cause is much more the fault of living in a comfort zone in comfort of the imagination that is the cause of most if the dilemmas of mankind.
Louise
__________________

 

[ThouArtThat]

..................................................................................................................
The self is not an illusion , but created by God for the purpose of our salvation.

On the contrary, the illusion of the self is what keeps you from salvation. The goal of Christianity is transcend the self, to crucify it, and to be born in Christ who is all.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

Colossians 3:11
Christ is all, and is in all

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

And anyone who thinks evil is not hidden in the self has not experienced it's reality.

It is the illusion that we are separate from everything else which is the source of evil. You will find it impossible to think of any evil not caused by the illusion of the self.

 

[Davian]

...
These are mostly caused by sin, the self has not grown and the mind and body deteriorates. Call it due to age or disease etc. but the cause is much more the fault of living in a comfort zone in comfort of the imagination that is the cause of most if the dilemmas of mankind.
Louise

I prefer biological rather than theological explanations for biological issues.

When you get sick, do you think you are possessed by demons?

 

[Aeroflotte]

@ThouArtThat

We agree on just about everything. There are some things that I disagree with, but it's actually difficult for me to identify just where those points were at first. Now that you've mentioned that the self can be transcended, I can see clearer where your thought is going. I agree on your theory of what the self is and does, but where we part is that I don't believe anymore that the self can be transcended. I think that the ideas of "transcending self" and "entering the kingdom of God" are ways of avoiding the pain of being human, having to deal with ourselves. They are the easy routes. That's not to say that the self doesn't exist. There's more validity in the existence of a self than there is God. The definitions of self may be inaccurate, but there is something inside of us that acts like what we think is the self.

 

[ThouArtThat]

No I read it on a web page a few months back but I can't remember exactly who said it. I can't even find the web page anymore.

It appears to be a quote by a writer named Sebastian Bachmann discussing the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead.

 

[louise sheinholtz]

On the contrary, the illusion of the self is what keeps you from salvation. The goal of Christianity is transcend the self, to crucify it, and to be born in Christ who is all.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

Colossians 3:11
Christ is all, and is in all

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.



It is the illusion that we are separate from everything else which is the source of evil. You will find it impossible to think of any evil not caused by the illusion of the self.

...................................................................................................................
Really?
Than why call yourself thou art if you are an illusion?
What deception!
Being aware of evil will crucify it, don't face it and it lives.but if not aware and think we are saved because the bible says so is not being crucified.
God works in mysterious ways which you have not yet experienced.
You know about God, but, you don't know how He works which means you don't know God.
Get out of the written words and find the living word. Knowing what is hidden in self will bring salvation. You have it backwards.
Louise

 

[ThouArtThat]

...................................................................................................................
Really?
Than why call yourself thou art if you are an illusion?

Thou art that, the whole works, not just a separate part. When you wake up to this and see there is no difference between self and other, Jesus' teachings of selflessness, of treating others as yourself, suddenly make a whole lot of sense.

Being aware of evil will crucify it, don't face it and it lives.but if not aware and think we are saved because the bible says so is not being crucified.

I'm very much aware of the source of evil, and that is the illusion of the self. It's this illusion that we are separate from each other that causes us to harm one another and play games of one-upmanship.

 

[louise sheinholtz]

Thou art that, the whole works, not just a separate part. When you wake up to this and see there is no difference between self and other, Jesus' teachings of selflessness, of treating others as yourself, suddenly make a whole lot of sense.


I'm very much aware of the source of evil, and that is the illusion of the self. It's this illusion that we are separate from each other that causes us to harm one another and play games of one-upmanship.

...................................................................................................................

There is a religious path and there is a spiritual path. One is intellectual and one is not. One learns from within not from books not even the bible. The bible is a beautiful book, but, not to learn word from word, but to let the words change us from within without trying to learn it like a robot.

The human must experience his thoughts and feelings to know the truth about himself otherwise he cannot change and eventually attain peace.
I used to read the bible (not study it) and took parts that applied to what I saw in myself and it always touched me deeply and change began to change me naturally, but, through many spiritual experiences.

I don't want to hurt your feelings, but, sometimes the truth hurts.
Louise

__________________

 

[ThouArtThat]

...................................................................................................................

There is a religious path and there is a spiritual path. One is intellectual and one is not. One learns from within not from books not even the bible. The bible is a beautiful book, but, not to learn word from word, but to let the words change us from within without trying to learn it like a robot.

You don't need the Bible or any book to see that everything is connected, that the separateness between the self and other is subjective, and that what you do to others and to the world around you, you in turn to do yourself. The only reason I quoted the Bible was because you're Christian, and so I thought if I put these ideas into Christian language it would help you understand them.

The human must experience his thoughts and feelings to know the truth about himself otherwise he cannot change and eventually attain peace.

This is true. Look within and examine yourself. Who are you? Where do you begin and end? Where is the self between thoughts? The closer you look, the more the line between self and other will begin to blur, until it eventually disappears altogether.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The concept of self has much less affect than the perception of self.

"Self" is non-other.

My self is a complex of actuality and potentiality. My self exists contingently. My self is a complex of intellectual, emotional, willful and biological processes.

This is a sign of the End Times. I actually agree with bricklayer's entire post.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think of the transporter as the 'shredder': it kills you, then constructs an exact copy of you in another location.

Interesting. I think of an exact copy of you as you. It isn't something that's not you, even if you get stuck in the transporter buffer for years and are only rematerialized afterwards. If multiple copies are made, they are all you, though they diverge from each other right away.

The 'self' is a construct, a result of processes in the brain used for information processing.

For the sake of clarity in this thread, this is what I call a "self-concept". I almost never refer to this as a "self".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[louise sheinholtz]

" Look within and examine yourself. Who are you? Where do you begin and end? Where is the self between thoughts? The closer you look, the more the line between self and other will begin to blur, until it eventually disappears" quote

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to thou art

What do you mean self and other? What is other to you? And what do you mean we are one?
Thanks for explaining yourself. What makes you think it disappears?
Louise

 

[Illuminaughty]

It appears to be a quote by a writer named Sebastian Bachmann discussing the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead.

That sounds right. I've had a real interest in the philosophy of Whitehead lately. Process Philosophy and Pragmatism (especially John Dewey and William James) are probably my favorite Western schools of philosophy. Phenomenology (Husserl, Heidegger, Sartre, Merleau-Ponty) is nice as well so maybe I just like things that start with the letter P.

 

[Received]

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed into a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves! Here's Tom with the weather." -- Bill Hicks