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The Achilles Heel of Atheism

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KCfromNC

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Elioenai26 seems to think that our memory of the thread on the moral argument has faded, that we've forgotten about his previous definitions of 'objective moral values', and that what has transpired in that thread is no longer within our grasp.

Goes back to his fondness for debate. Using pre-packaged arguments which just fit into a short time limit is really great - it allows one to dodge questions and try to overwhelm people with lots of questionable appeals to experts. Since there's a time or word limit, your opponent can either spend all their time questioning what you presented or try to address their points.

What it doesn't hold up to is detailed questioning and checks for consistency with other pre-packaged deliveries. And forums like this don't have a time limit or word limit, so the lecturing approach falls apart.

Instead of addressing these issues, it seems his preferred response is to arbitrarily declare he's done with the conversation because his presentation is finished. That's a convenient, if transparent, way to leave without looking like he can't handle the questions.
 
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Skavau

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While I agree with the second part, I disagree with the first.

If Christianity taught hate instead of love, self-centeredness instead of self-denial and self-sacrifice, apathy as opposed to compassion and concern for one's neighbor, then even if Christianity were "true", I would not practice it.
This, from you based on prior comments you have made in the past is an astounding proclamation. Though your inconsistency must be noted. You say that love, compassion and concern for others are so important, so non-negotiable as values that you would discard God and his affirmed ideology if it did not include them (or included their opposites). I am rather pleased to see you say this and implore you the burden of saying it more often when necessary. However...

Why does the doctrine of hell, which you do so affirm and defend not bother you? If an absence of love and compassion would be enough to make you discard yourself from Christianity then why isn't the very idea of an existent realm of which over 70%+ of the human race, according to your understanding will languish for eternity not make you wretch? Why is the non-specific "love" as a concept so important but not the idea that people do not deserve to be tormented or tortured for eternity for how they think or for being born with traits or tendencies they did not know how to remove?

Likewise, if Christianity were proven false, which incidentally, it never could be, I would still be a Christian in the sense that I would still seek to pattern my life after the life of Christ.
This is another astounding assertion from you. You have repeatedly argued that morality, without God to back it up and effectively impose it is devoid of meaning and relevance. You have argued that life, with death is all in vain and for no purpose. Now you are saying that contrary to that, moral values do indeed have substance and relevance in absence of all of this.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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This, from you based on prior comments you have made in the past is an astounding proclamation. Though your inconsistency must be noted. You say that love, compassion and concern for others are so important, so non-negotiable as values that you would discard God and his affirmed ideology if it did not include them (or included their opposites). I am rather pleased to see you say this and implore you the burden of saying it more often when necessary. However...

Why does the doctrine of hell, which you do so affirm and defend not bother you? If an absence of love and compassion would be enough to make you discard yourself from Christianity then why isn't the very idea of an existent realm of which over 70%+ of the human race, according to your understanding will languish for eternity not make you wretch? Why is the non-specific "love" as a concept so important but not the idea that people do not deserve to be tormented or tortured for eternity for how they think or for being born with traits or tendencies they did not know how to remove?


This is another astounding assertion from you. You have repeatedly argued that morality, without God to back it up and effectively impose it is devoid of meaning and relevance. You have argued that life, with death is all in vain and for no purpose. Now you are saying that contrary to that, moral values do indeed have substance and relevance in absence of all of this.

It is amazing to me that anyone could regard a being that punishes thought crimes with eternal torment as the source of moral perfection. Countless people who live decently are condemned to indescribable anguish simply because they do not believe in the right dogma. Most of them weren't even exposed to the right dogma to begin with because they lived in a time or place in which Christianity was not prevalent. "Morally perfect" is not the description one ought to give to a being that knowingly creates creatures that are doomed to eternal suffering.
 
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Elioenai26

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If one seeks to live a life of love and self-sacrifice with always the thought of the welfare of others before him, then this person is to be commended and his knowledge regarding certain matters, whether it be small or great, is not so very important.

I believe if each one were to seek to pattern his life after the life of Christ, to imitate Him in His meekness, humility, great compassion, and loving self-sacrifice, we would have no cause for even discussing morality. For we would all love one another as we love ourselves.

This would truly be heaven on earth.
 
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bhsmte

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If one seeks to live a life of love and self-sacrifice with always the thought of the welfare of others before him, then this person is to be commended and his knowledge regarding certain matters, whether it be small or great, is not so very important.

I believe if each one were to seek to pattern his life after the life of Christ, to imitate Him in His meekness, humility, great compassion, and loving self-sacrifice, we would have no cause for even discussing morality. For we would all love one another as we love ourselves.

This would truly be heaven on earth.

Well, thats your opinion.

Many people get by just peachy and live good lives without your belief structure.
 
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bhsmte

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Much of what you say is true....

Many do get by just peachy and live lives without my belief structure.

You forgot one word, but I'm sure it wasn't intentional.

Many people get by just peachy, and live GOOD lives without your belief structure.
 
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Elioenai26

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You forgot one word, but I'm sure it wasn't intentional.

Many people get by just peachy, and live GOOD lives without your belief structure.

I am afraid I don't understand you.

What are you trying to say?

What is good?

How do you define it?

What rule are you appealing to when you look at someones life and decide it is good as opposed to bad?
 
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Skavau

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I am afraid I don't understand you.

What are you trying to say?

What is good?

How do you define it?

What rule are you appealing to when you look at someones life and decide it is good as opposed to bad?
Probably the same rule you look at were you to say:

Likewise, if Christianity were proven false, which incidentally, it never could be, I would still be a Christian in the sense that I would still seek to pattern my life after the life of Christ
 
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bhsmte

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I am afraid I don't understand you.

What are you trying to say?

What is good?

How do you define it?

What rule are you appealing to when you look at someones life and decide it is good as opposed to bad?

What rule? How about the "golden rule".
 
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Elioenai26

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This, from you based on prior comments you have made in the past is an astounding proclamation. Though your inconsistency must be noted. You say that love, compassion and concern for others are so important, so non-negotiable as values that you would discard God and his affirmed ideology if it did not include them (or included their opposites). I am rather pleased to see you say this and implore you the burden of saying it more often when necessary. However...

Why does the doctrine of hell, which you do so affirm and defend not bother you? If an absence of love and compassion would be enough to make you discard yourself from Christianity then why isn't the very idea of an existent realm of which over 70%+ of the human race, according to your understanding will languish for eternity not make you wretch? Why is the non-specific "love" as a concept so important but not the idea that people do not deserve to be tormented or tortured for eternity for how they think or for being born with traits or tendencies they did not know how to remove?

The doctrine of hell does not bother me because in the two-thousand and sixth year since the year of our Lord, I, by the will of God, had my eyes opened to see who I was as God saw me. I at once saw myself as one beloved of God and at the same time, saw myself as one who was in active rebellion against Him. I, saw, by the will of God, that I was at once, a murderer, an adulterer, a sexually immoral whoremonger, a reviler, a drunkard, a drug abuser and drug seller, liar, undisciplined, ruthless, faithless, heartless, hater of good, hater of authority, selfish, egotistical, maniacal, lascivious, boaster, prideful, arrogant thief among other things.....

This revelation of God pierced my soul and cut me to the quick, exposing me for all that was in my heart. Outwardly, I was your typical young twenty year old. Inwardly, I was a ravenous man. Not unlike the demon possessed man in the land of the Gerasenes who cried aloud night after night and roamed through the tombs naked, bruising himself with stones, delirious with grief, hatred, sorrow, and loneliness.

Like so many men and women who saw themselves as sinners when convicted of their inner sin sick condition after having had the light of God shine upon them, I knew I needed a physician. I knew I needed to be made well. I knew it was not a doctor that I needed however, for my sickness was not of the physical sort at all. My sickness came from within, in my heart. I cried out in the torment of my exposed soul which sought to hide from that radiance bright. But Christ was already there waiting and did not suffer me to wait a second. He was there, even before I cried out, waiting for me, with such unspeakable patience and love. He had been waiting for twenty long years. I did not have to run and find Him! I did not have to ascend up into the heavens to find Him there, nor did I have to descend into the depths of the earth to seek Him out there. He sought me out, and His seeking, caused me to seek Him.

He had been standing at the door of my heart knocking for some time.... I had heard it clearly at first, years prior, when I was in church sitting with my mother. I was afraid, as most young children are. I did not really understand that sense, that urgent compulsion within my breast that made me almost stand up of its own accord and walk down the aisle. Even then I had some sense, however small it was, that I was in need of forgiving. That I had done some things that God was not pleased with. Things I would never tell anyone, not even my mother......And so Sundays came and Sundays went....I grew up and eventually that voice, that knocking grew dimmer and dimmer, until it was altogether silenced, drowned by the cacophony and bustle of teenage life.

And so, God allowed me to keep the door of my heart closed. It was my own choice you see. I could have opened it and allowed Him to come in. Such sweet fellowship was mine for the accepting. But out of fear, I did not open that door. God, in some strange, mysterious, and magnificent way, allowed me to indeed keep that door closed. He could not open it from the outside. He had to be welcomed in. He loved me too much to intrude and upset my petty little party I had going on inside. But nevertheless......He waited there....outside for many many years; protecting me, watching over me. I know personally, that several times I should have been all but dead from the things I was doing, the drugs I was taking, and the fast, loose, and reckless way I was living. Several of my friends have passed away....they were doing nothing different than I.....but they are gone....I still remain.....

Late that night, or early that morning, I know not which one it was....I know that Christ came inside when I at long last....like the prodigal son.. confessed my folly and ignorance and rebellion, and sought to return home....I opened the door of my heart and He came inside. It is marvelous, now that I recall that moment....I feel like the Apostle Paul felt when he said that he saw things and heard things that mere mortals are not fit to utter. It cannot even be appropriately described in words. This encounter with the Divine....it is something altogether different. I think God has made it so that those who have experienced it might never forget it.

God in that moment, actually became real to me. Prior to, He had been nothing more than a concept, or an ideal....I often, as a child, tried to rap my mind around it all....but it was all a mental exercise....I knew God then like a person who has never met the President could say they know him. They may know how old the President is, they may know where he lives, what school he went to, how many kids he has, and a plethora of like facts. But when God in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit entered me, I knew God. God was no longer an abstract concept...the subject of philosopher's and theologian's musings....No no....in that moment, a relationship was initiated and I began to commune with the Very God who spoke the universe into existence. The very God who formed man from the dust of the earth.... The very God who spoke life and light into the dark void of the expanding cosmos.... This God who spoke to His prophets in the Holy Scriptures and who has spoken in these last times through His Son Jesus. He speaks now, for He has never ceased speaking. He speaks not to the ear of man alone....for how could He restrict Himself thus???? This would be to neglect the deaf! He manifests Himself, not to the human eye...for then what would become of the blind???? No no....He reveals Himself to the spirits of men and women who have been touched by His love, who have been awakened from their sin induced slumber and He invites them to fellowship with Him in righteousness and holiness....

So my friend, when you ask me about hell, and why it does not bother me, that some people are going to ultimately be there for eternity, I can honestly say that I myself deserved it. I am simply being honest. I also know that I am no different than any other person who has ever lived. If I need a Savior, everyone does. There is none righteous, no not one. If I had died in my sins, I would have had no one for my defense except myself, and I would have made a lousy lawyer indeed! For what could I say to Him who sees all and knows all? What excuse could I bring to satisfy the Holy God who created me and showed me the way therein that I should have walked? If I had dared to defend myself in the presence of the Almighty then it would have only served to confirm my sentence of condemnation. I would have not had Jesus there by my side as my propitiation. He would have caused to pass before my eyes the hundreds of times the Holy Spirit was convicting me and pleading, begging me to repent and to turn from my sensual wickedness. And all the times I ignored that pleading.....He would have caused to pass before me the countless sins I committed, in thought, word, and deed....sins so innumerable that to endeavor to count them would itself take an eternity....

When a person stands before God on judgment day, oh that dreadful day for the unrighteous, faithless, and wicked...that day will not be a day for excuses. If you think about it....how could it be? What excuse could a wicked man give God for living wickedly that would suffice??? Lord Lord, I did not know it was wrong to cheat on my wife!, Lord, I did not know that it was evil to lust after women in my heart and harbor all sorts of vile thoughts in my mind!!! Lord, I did not know it was wrong to hate others because of the color of their skin!!! Will these excuses satisfy the Holy requirement of a righteous God? The sad part is that in seeking to justify himself, the man would be adding one more sin to the list.....that of lying! For not only did the man know that all of the above were wrong, but is seeking to justify this wrong! Christ, in all His splendor and majesty would simply cause every instance of stinging conviction of his conscience to play like a movie reel before him...starting from the first time as a child when he stole the lolipop from the drug store and got that queer sense that the act was wrong.....like a parade of military soldiers marching before their commander....so too would every instance of his conscience convicting him form into an innumerable mass as they made their way past him....leaving the man in utter silence and shame. Alas.....for the man, there would be no excuses, he would have to admit that for whatever reasons, he neglected this conviction and chose to live as he were his own god with no one to answer to.

And then of course, Christ would allow to play before the man, every instance of the man's life that the gospel had been proclaimed in his hearing and it entering in one ear and out the other, never making its way to his heart, and the man would be reduced to tears and shame....

Seeing there is no recourse and no way of escape, the man levels his head, and lifts his chin as his pride comes roaring to the fore to defend him and he gnashes his teeth. In one last desperate display of self-sufficiency, he shakes his fist at Christ and is there.... consigned to abide forever away from the presence of God.

Eternity is not to be seen as a million years or a billion years or even a trillion years....Eternity is the very absence of time itself....There is no measure of passing time there....

And so, for eternity, the man is consumed....consumed by his own hatred, his own malice, his own pride....this consuming is like a fire that never goes out....for there is no one there to put it out....each person there is so self-centered, so self-sufficient, that they would never even think about anyone but themselves....this pride....this fuel which feeds the flames that ascend forever and ever come from the very soul of the one it consumes....perpetually...eternally.

Hell is a horrific place.....more horrific than anyone can possibly imagine....so horrific that Christ warned that if our eyes cause us to sin that we should pluck them out, that if our hand causes us to sin that we should cut it off....why? It is far better to enter into life maimed, than to be cast into the hell of fire whole.....

Hell is real because God is real. If it had not been for Christ no one would have hope. Those, however, who are well, have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.

But Christ has come....His atoning work has been finished.
For Christ did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
 
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Davian

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***********

I hope you and everyone else reading this gets my point.

You can present all the evidence you want that the man whom you call "father" is your father. If I am (for whatever reason) unwilling to accept it, then I can dismiss it on the grounds that it does not meet my expectation criteria for evidence. I can set the bar SOOOOO HIGH that virtually anything offered will simply be explained away....
I don't think the father/son analogy is a good one, since I think we all know basic biology, but when it comes to gods all we have to date are characters in books.
This is what some dishonest atheists do when presented with evidence of God. I hope you are not one of them.
So, what was this evidence that you speak of here in reference to these "dishonest atheists"?

Was it something testable, repeatable, and falsifiable, like a DNA paternity test in the father/son analogy?

Do you include a testable definition for what you mean by "god"?

Was this evidence presented in a falsifiable hypothesis?

How low do you need the bar set?
 
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Elioenai26

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I don't think the father/son analogy is a good one, since I think we all know basic biology, but when it comes to gods all we have to date are characters in books.

I think it suffices to prove the point that if one is unwilling to accept what someone is telling them, then no amount of evidence or proof will convince them. The father could present me with a DNA paternity test and if I did not want to accept it, I could just dismiss it as a fake. I could even say that the ones who performed the testing and printed the results were secretly working with the father and son in an effort to deceive me.

They could even perform it before my very eyes and I could simply dismiss it by saying the testing equipment had been previously rigged to produce a specified result.

People can be very imaginative and ingenious when it comes to explaining away things they do not want to accept.

All that is required is an imagination!
 
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Davian

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I think it suffices to prove the point that if one is unwilling to accept what someone is telling them, then no amount of evidence or proof will convince them. The father could present me with a DNA paternity test and if I did not want to accept it, I could just dismiss it as a fake. I could even say that the ones who performed the testing and printed the results were secretly working with the father and son in an effort to deceive me.

They could even perform it before my very eyes and I could simply dismiss it by saying the testing equipment had been previously rigged to produce a specified result.

People can be very imaginative and ingenious when it comes to explaining away things they do not want to accept.

All that is required is an imagination!
As I said, I didn't think it was a good analogy. Since you snipped the key part of my post, I'll ask again:

What was this evidence that you speak of here in reference to these "dishonest atheists"?

Was it something testable, repeatable, and falsifiable, like a DNA paternity test in the father/son analogy?

Do you include a testable definition for what you mean by "god"?

Was this evidence presented in a falsifiable hypothesis?

How low do you need the bar set?
 
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Elioenai26

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As I said, I didn't think it was a good analogy. Since you snipped the key part of my post, I'll ask again:

What was this evidence that you speak of here in reference to these "dishonest atheists"?

The evidence God has given men that leaves them without excuse for denying He exists. You know what this evidence is because God has made it known to all men. Yes Davian, that means you too! :)

Was it something testable, repeatable, and falsifiable, like a DNA paternity test in the father/son analogy?

This evidence is even more sure, more real, more trustworthy than a DNA test!

Do you include a testable definition for what you mean by "god"?

Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Was this evidence presented in a falsifiable hypothesis?

God has chosen not to reveal Himself in such a restricted manner, thank goodness!

How low do you need the bar set?

For what?

P.S. I am kinda lacking in my knowledge of what post-positivism is, would you mind explaining it to me? In your own words maybe? I would love to learn more about it from one of its adherents.
 
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Davian

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The evidence God has given men that leaves them without excuse for denying He exists.
If you are speaking of something other than a character in a book, I do not deny that it exists, as I don't know what you are talking about.
You know what this evidence is because God has made it known to all men. Yes Davian, that means you too! :)
Apparently not.
This evidence is even more sure, more real, more trustworthy than a DNA test!
Did you not just dismiss DNA testing as easily faked? So then, your evidence can be faked as well? Or, one can be deceived, or self-deceived?
Jesus Christ of Nazareth
I said, a testable definition for what you mean by "god". We cannot even be sure of the historicity of Jesus.

At what point will you admit that you cannot provide a testable definition for what you mean by "god"? I am not saying it cannot be done, but you have had ample opportunity to put something together.
God has chosen not to reveal Himself in such a restricted manner, thank goodness!
How are you defining "good" in this context? By what standard? How is this anything but a failure at this point?
For what?
Is this a game for you?
P.S. I am kinda lacking in my knowledge of what post-positivism is, would you mind explaining it to me? In your own words maybe? I would love to learn more about it from one of its adherents.
You admit that your knowledge is lacking, yet you offered to debate me on the subject and show me "why it is absurd". Look it up yourself - I am not one of its "adherents". Look up "falsifiability" while you are at it.
 
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Elioenai26

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If you are speaking of something other than a character in a book, I do not deny that it exists, as I don't know what you are talking about.

I am. :)

Apparently not.

:)

Did you not just dismiss DNA testing as easily faked?

No sir. I said I could dismiss it as a fake if I did not like its conclusions. That is not the same as saying a DNA test is easily faked.

So then, your evidence can be faked as well? Or, one can be deceived, or self-deceived?

The evidence I am talking about cannot be faked.

I said, a testable definition for what you mean by "god". We cannot even be sure of the historicity of Jesus.

I am sure of it.

I think you should look into it and come to a decision.

At what point will you admit that you cannot provide a testable definition for what you mean by "god"? I am not saying it cannot be done, but you have had ample opportunity to put something together.

What do you mean by a "testable definition"? Do you have an example?

How are you defining "good" in this context? By what standard? How is this anything but a failure at this point?

"Thank goodness" is an expression of gratitude that we in the South use....kinda like slang talk ya know?

Is this a game for you?

No sir! :)

You admit that your knowledge is lacking, yet you offered to debate me on the subject and show me "why it is absurd". Look it up yourself - I am not one of its "adherents". Look up "falsifiability" while you are at it.

I am always willing to learn!

So you are not a post-positivist?

I thought you were?:doh:

Oh well, my mistake, I think I must have made a mistake!
 
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Davian

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Yesterday was Thursday.
No sir. I said I could dismiss it as a fake if I did not like its conclusions. That is not the same as saying a DNA test is easily faked.

The evidence I am talking about cannot be faked.
I see you did not rule out being deceived, or self-deceived.
I am sure of it.
Whatever.
I think you should look into it and come to a decision.
Done. Insufficient evidence.
What do you mean by a "testable definition"? Do you have an example?
No. I am not doing your homework for you.
"Thank goodness" is an expression of gratitude that we in the South use....kinda like slang talk ya know?
I had not seen it used in association with failure.
No sir! :)

I am always willing to learn!

So you are not a post-positivist?

I thought you were?:doh:

Oh well, my mistake, I think I must have made a mistake!
And that was just today! :)
 
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