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Paul's Conversion
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FrenchyBearpaw
Take time for granite.
Actually, if Paul hadn't promoted Christianity as fervently as he did, it most likely would have died.
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Snipped everything that wasn't a transparent attempt at poisoning the well.
If the best you have is personal attacks, why even bother posting? The inability to address actual responses just makes your case look weaker, as if you had nothing substantial to add to the conversation at all.
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- Jul 31, 2004
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Agreed. Constantine's conversion would have been impossible without Paul.
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It's just bad reading to reduce Galatians 1:11-17 and Luke's account in Acts 9:1-19 (along with Paul's sermons in Acts 22 and his other allusions in 1 Cor 9:1 and 1 Cor 15:8) to a "literary device". Luke was a travelling companion of Paul and so would've got the account directly from his lips. They are clearly claiming a miraculous vision and conversion.
And I'm not presenting an argument. I am asking how you explain this historical event. How do you explain Paul's conversion?
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- Aug 3, 2004
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It's not just Paul's 'vision', but the large number who actually saw the risen Christ. Paul saw Christ 'out of time' i.e. after Christ's ascension.
John
NZ
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FrenchyBearpaw
Take time for granite.
If you were to be intellectually honest, you can only claim that it was written that a "large number" actually saw Jesus risen.
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Neither was Paul's vision.
So why do you doubt the visions of Joseph Smith? All he got for those visions was persecution, and eventually he was martyred for his beliefs.
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Eudaimonist
I believe in life before death!
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I don't see how this in any way revokes the literary device possibility.
How does any person convert to Christianity? Like that. I don't see why this is an important question, as if a conversion to Christianity is such a rare event that it requires an extraordinary explanation.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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Or as if no one converts to religions other than christianity who were also founded on the writings of men who claimed to speak for gods, and by men who claimed to have had divine visions from gods.
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True. From there it is a matter of the evidence for such beliefs, and the worldview they imply, what most consistently 'fits' with that framework. For Christianity the fundamental pivot is Christ's resurrection.
John
NZ
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FrenchyBearpaw
Take time for granite.
For which there is zero evidence. You're forced then to accept all mythical resurrections as real, or reject them all.
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You're just not up on your Mormonism.
Joseph Smith claims multiple people saw his golden tablets too.
He wrests the veracity of his claims in the "eleven book of Mormon witnesses".
So, why aren't you convinced?
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Paul was free to either have a sincere vision or just be making stuff up, neither of which is unbelievable in the least considering how many "visions" and made up stories about Gods we have nowadays.
Neither of these possibilities tell us if Jesus really appeared to him.
Neither of these possibilities tell us if Jesus really appeared to him.
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So now you're changing your mind and saying the number of people to see a particular vision doesn't matter. OK. So what's your reason for rejecting Joesph Smith's vision again?
Who, exactly, and where can I read their account of what happened?
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FrenchyBearpaw
Take time for granite.
Since you have no original eyewitness testimony of a resurrection, all you have is hearsay. If you're willing to base your entire worldview on hearsay, then you have no rational reason to reject all other claims of miraculous visions and revelation.
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