Messianics and Dispensationalism

[intojoy]

LROL! I can live with that!

Dan C

Well we probably won't agree on a lot so how about playing black ops II and we can blow each other away with LMGs for more better edification

 

[dnc101]

Well we probably won't agree on a lot so how about playing black ops II and we can blow each other away with LMGs for more better edification

I-I-I'm not much for video games. Used to train the real deal though. Might still have a few realistic scenarios in the old bod, if yer up fer it! Like mamma used to say, it's all fun and games unless someone gets hurt! Well, just a little maybe ... at least an owie ... !

Dan C

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Well we probably won't agree on a lot so how about playing black ops II and we can blow each other away with LMGs for more better edification

I have black ops, Battlefield 2,3.


HannibalFlavius


Yup, Look me up and I'll be glad to pull a silent knife.

All who come against me meet my blade or my Tomahawk!!!!!

If not that, I'll fly my helicopter skids into you.

Yup, I love to play!

My son is in Korea and that's how we hook up online.

 

[intojoy]

I have black ops, Battlefield 2,3.

HannibalFlavius

Lets take the whole collection of nuts and cooks in the forum, make teams and battle it out.

 

[mercy1061]

Abraham did not offer Isaac 'out in the field.' Re-read the text, he went up a mountain.

I think everyone knows that Abraham offered Isaac on a holy mountain PRIOR to the temple. So we should be able to all agree that sacrifice or "Circumcision on the 8th day" should not be destroyed because the temple was destroyed.

 

[mercy1061]

Is there a reason why you always refer to Paul as Pharisee Paul? I don't think there's anyone reading these posts who doesn't know that Paul was of the sect of the Pharisees.

I like calling Pharisee Paul a pharisee. Some from mainstream christianity attempt to use Pharisee Paul to teach against the pharisee teachings and the Torah.

 

[mercy1061]

IS this before or after the 70 x 7 of forgiveness?

I am unsure I understand your question. Are you refering to Matthew 18?

Matt 18
21 Then Kefa came up and said to him, “Rabbi, how often can my brother sin against me and I have to forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 “No, not seven times,” answered Yeshua, “but seventy times seven! 23 Because of this, the Kingdom of Heaven may be compared with a king who decided to settle accounts with his deputies. 24 Right away they brought forward a man who owed him many millions; 25 and since he couldn’t pay, his master ordered that he, his wife, his children and all his possessions be sold to pay the debt. 26 But the servant fell down before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 So out of pity for him, the master let him go and forgave the debt.
28 “But as that servant was leaving, he came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him some tiny sum. He grabbed him and began to choke him, crying, ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ 29 His fellow servant fell before him and begged, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ 30 But he refused; instead, he had him thrown in jail until he should repay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were extremely distressed; and they went and told their master everything that had taken place. 32 Then the master summoned his servant and said, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt just because you begged me to do it. 33 Shouldn’t you have had pity on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And in anger his master turned him over to the jailers for punishment until he paid back everything he owed. 35 This is how my heavenly Father will treat you, unless you each forgive your brother from your hearts.”

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I think everyone knows that Abraham offered Isaac on a holy mountain PRIOR to the temple. So we should be able to all agree that sacrifice or "Circumcision on the 8th day" should not be destroyed because the temple was destroyed.

Exactly the point. Since the Abrahamic covenant precedes the Mosaic and the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional and perpetual. No matter 'what happens' the Abrahamic covenant would still exist and apply as in Land, seed and blessing.

 

[annier]

I said he was wrongly accused him of being a sinner, so they crucified him.

But we were talking about death, for sin. Christ did not suffer death for his own sin. Wrongly or not, he died. That was the point. At least it originally was.

The ancient scriptures NEVER contradict themselves. Although there are certain conditions CLEARLY SPELLED OUT before sacrifices are limited to the temple. Sacrifices were performed out in the field; like Abraham did with Isaac.

As you say, that was before they became restricted to the temple.

Sacrifices were limited to the temple because of the temple.

Again, the this the same issue as him suffering death. Just as he died for our sins, and not his own. So, too Sacrifices became limited to the temple.

However sacrifices are not "done away" or "abolished" because there is no temple.

Levitical sacrifices are unable to be performed apart from the temple. without being guilty as the scripture says. That is what the law of Moses says.

Sacrifices could be performed out in the field, as Moses did when he worshiped in the dessert.

If you think you can do something because someone else has done it, I do not know what else to say. I mean, the high priest also went into the holy of holies too. Lot's of people did lots of things.

"Circumcision on the 8th day" and "temple worship" can be performed out in the field without a temple.

I do not believe, temple sacrifices can be performed without a temple, as they were restricted to the temple. If you believe otherwise, so be it.
As you have acknowledged Levitical sacrifices were limited to the temple, but say you can do them anyway.
You acknowledge all men suffer death because of their sin. Yet you skirt this issue with Christ having died and why.
So, there is nothing more I have to say to you.
Shalom

 

[annier]

Exactly the point. Since the Abrahamic covenant precedes the Mosaic and the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional and perpetual. No matter 'what happens' the Abrahamic covenant would still exist and apply as in Land, seed and blessing.

I agree with you MPO! We may not agree on all the details but we basically agree, that the Abrahamic promises are sure.

 

[Avodat]

Given all the statements of perpetuity of the Torah, which parts will apply in the Temple written about in Revelation?

 

[annier]

Given all the statements of perpetuity of the Torah, which parts will apply in the Temple written about in Revelation?

I am not sure what you mean by will apply, but He has already entered so it is already applied. That continues.....IMO
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[Avodat]

So Revelation has been fulfilled already? The New Jerusalem is here and now? The second coming has happened? Judgement has taken place and hell is full of those who oppose G_d and we are the ones who have our new home and new body in eternity? We are really living in the times when all worship G_d and the Elders fall down and worship him etc etc.,? The Babylonian harlot is dead and the apocalypse has happened - those who died in the faith are really those of us who are now alive? There are sinners in the New Jerusalem and we need to continue to evangelise the inhabitants of the City - why?

Did I fall asleep and miss something?

 

[Nathan Ethan]

Given all the statements of perpetuity of the Torah, which parts will apply in the Temple written about in Revelation?

There is a temple in the heavens in the presence of YHWH now that is mentioned several times in Revelation. It is where Messiah is presently serving: "We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by YHWH, not by a mere human being." (Heb. viii.1-2)

However, in the New Yerushalayim on the New Earth, there will no longer be any temple: John said, "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (Rev. xxi.22)

Also, in the New Earth which YHWH will create, there will not even be a remembrance of the past things that pertained to the old Earth:
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind." (Isa. lxv.17)

The riches of YHWH's favor to us will be the focus in the ages to come:
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his favor, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Eph. ii.6-7)

 

[Avodat]

There is a temple in the heavens in the presence of YHWH now that is mentioned several times in Revelation. It is where Messiah is presently serving: "We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by YHWH, not by a mere human being." (Heb. viii.1-2)

However, in the New Yerushalayim on the New Earth, there will no longer be any temple: John said, "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (Rev. xxi.22)

Also, in the New Earth which YHWH will create, there will not even be a remembrance of the past things that pertained to the old Earth:
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind." (Isa. lxv.17)

The riches of YHWH's favor to us will be the focus in the ages to come:
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his favor, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Eph. ii.6-7)

I know the last mention of the Temple is in Revelation 16. The question is which parts of the perpetual Torah will be applied in that Temple (bearing in mind that it is operable right up until the fall of Babylon, at least) and in the New Jerusalem whose Temple will be G_d and the Lamb?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I know the last mention of the Temple is Revelation 16. The question is which parts of the perpetual Torah will be applied in that Temple (bearing in mind that it is operable right up until the fall of Babylon, at least) and in the New Jerusalem whose Temple will be G_d and the Lamb?

Revelation comes after the Messianic Age. In the Messianic Age there will be a Temple.

 

[Yahudim]

I have read this thread from beginning till now and have observed a theme. So I was wondering if anyone else has observed what I have. The OP is a loaded question, but I presume offered innocently enough...

Are all Messianics also Dispensationlists?

...but the discussion following, well not so much. It has broken out into two distinct camps - not counting all of the rabbit trails. Once again we find ourselves confronted with the same attempts at obfuscation by using the same name or label to represent multiple concepts.

Let me give you an example: At one point, the label 'Messianic Age' was linked to this quote: "The Torah which a man learns in this world is but vanity compared to the Torah of Messiah." (Midrash Qohelet 11:8), which is misleading at best. To anyone who would like to nail this particular piece of 'Jello' to the wall, the litmus test is simple: Look out the window. If the heavens and the earth have not passed away, the Torah of Moshe is still in effect; even to the smallest stroke. Therefore, we are not in the 'Messianic Age' that the poster was attempting to link to this midrash, to this age or to this Messianic movement. See how that works? We rely on the teachings of Messiah Y'shua to clarify the obfuscated.

Another term that is purposely misused in this type of discussion is 'Messianic'; it is a term that can mean just about anything as it relates to Messiah Y'shua also known as Jesus the Christ. This is a term that is often substituted for 'Messianic Judaism' which is INSTEAD, a very particular form of worship where the tenets of ancient Judaism are observed in the worship of Yah according to proper discipleship as taught by Rav Y'shua HaMashiach.

The aforementioned 'Messianic Judaism' is to be CONTRASTED to the beliefs of those persons that are of Jewish heritage, that accept Y'shua (Jesus) as Messiah, but instead practice the tenets of Christianity. These are people that were originally referred to as 'Hebrew Christian'.

The takeaway from all of this is simple: People do what they believe. If these people believe what Messiah taught about Torah and what He instructed His disciples to do, they practice Messianic Judaism. If instead, they are Jewish in descendancy, culture or heritage and practice the tenets of Christianity, they are Hebrew Christians. They may be 'Messianic' Jews. But they do not practice Messianic Judaism. They practice Christianity, and the distinctions between the practices of Christianity and Judaism are extensively documented.

This forum is dedicated to the Faith Group called Messianic Judaism; it is for those that practice Messianic Judaism, not Hebrew Christianity. That is why the SoP specifically endorses Torah Observance as part and parcel of Messianic Judaism. It is the one distinction between Judaism and Christianity that is clearly understood by all - that of Torah Observance. It is the only type of observance and religious practice that Messiah Y'shua ever taught.

So once again, if you get confused, especially by all the Hebrew Christians that call themselves 'Messianic Jews' but arguing in favor of specifically and uniquely Christian doctrines (like Dispensationalism), look at what Messiah taught and what He practiced. You will find that all He ever taught, all He ever practiced, was Torah Observant Judaism. He lived the life of a transient, Ultra-Orthodox, Torah Observant Rabbi. Now go back and read the accounts of His life again and you will see that I am telling you the truth.

You think Torah has been fulfilled? You think Revelation is past? Look out the window. Do you see the heavens? Do you see the earth? Do you believe the witness of your own eyes and your own Messiah?

 

[Avodat]

Revelation comes after the Messianic Age. In the Messianic Age there will be a Temple.

So what marks the Messianic Age - beginning and end?

 

[Yahudim]

So what marks the Messianic Age?

Great question.

 

[visionary]

Here is a suggestion as to what marks the Messianic Age...

The Alpha and the Omega - Mazzaroth

The astronomical connections of the "symbol of the Fish" to the life of Yeshua include the relationship to the "symbol of Virgo, the virgin". Then look at the connection of the Star of Bethlehem to the constellations. Or how about Yeshua saying "I will make you fishers of men"?

If someone wants to look for ?dispensationalism within Judaism, then they can look up. As we all know, the Mazzaroth was mozaically found on the floor of an old synagogue. http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4589169354279332&pid=1.9&w=300&h=300&p=0

Job 38:31-33
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
31 “Can you tie up the cords of the Pleiades or loosen the belt of Orion? 32 Can you lead out the constellations of the zodiac in their season or guide the Great Bear and its cubs? 33 Do you know the laws of the sky? Can you determine how they affect the earth?

From Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible in the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary,
Mazzaroth (maz’-za-roth) is connected to the comparisons of the following two words:
1.) mazzarah (He Resh Zayin Mem) M(ah)ZZ(aw)R(aw)H, maz-zaw-raw’; apparently from the Heb. nazar, naw-zar’, a primary root, to hold aloof, here specifically to set apart (to sacred purposes), i.e. devote – consecrate, separate, thus used here in the sense of distinction (only in the plural), perhaps collectively as the zodiac: Mazzaroth.
2.) mazzalah (He Lamed Zayin Mem) M(ah)ZZ(aw)L(aw)H, maz-zaw-law’; apparently from the Heb. nazal, naw-zal’, a primary root, to drip, or shed by trickling: distill, drop, flood, (cause to) flow(-ing), gushout, melt, pour (down), running water, stream, thus in the sense of raining; a constellation, i.e. Zodiacal sign (perhaps as affecting the weather); -- planet.

(Lamed Shin Mem) in Gen. 1:14 "the task of separating and ruling" (masal) are notably, also a divine role here. Note its similarity to Mazzala shown as one of the Hebrew root words for Mazzaroth. A Fourth Day is Genesis 1:14-19, and other related verses

Scripture teachs us that the primary use of the astronomical bodies is for calculating times and seasons and to serve as signs. The Torah also emphasizes this idea:

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Season:
4150 mow`ed, mo-ade’; or mo`ed, mo-ade’; or (fem.) mow`adah (2 Chron. 8:13), mo-aw-daw’; from 3259; prop. an appointment, i.e. a fixed time or season; spec. a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting also a signal (as appointed beforehand):-appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed).

Rashi says the following about ‘signs’:

2 [If there will arise among you a prophet...] and he gives you a sign Hebrew אוֹת , [meaning a sign] in the heavens, as it is stated in the case of Gideon [who said to the angel]: “then show me a sign (אוֹ&#1514 “ (Shoftim [Judges] 6:17), and then it says [further], “let it be dry only upon the fleece [and upon all the ground let there be dew]” (Shoftim [Judges] 6:39).

In the Sanctuary of the Holy Temple there were two major holy vessels, the menorah and the table of shewbread upon which the lechem hapanim were arranged. The menorah consisted of seven candles, corresponding to the seven “moving stars” [from our earthly perspective]– the sun, the moon, and the five planets closest to the earth. Arranged upon the Table were twelve loaves of showbread, corresponding to the twelve constellations used as astrological signs of the Zodiac. These loaves are arranged in two tiers of six because of the twelve signs, six are always ascending and six are in decline. Thus, the menorah stood for the heavenly lights and the table for the astrological signs. taken from “Menorat Hamaor” by Rabbi Yitzchak Abuhav

Psalms 19:1-6 {For the director of music. A psalm of David.} The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, Which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.