Messianics and Dispensationalism

[intojoy]

This is the whole problem with taking "Messianic" commentary from Jewish Christians who are fully engaged in the church agenda. Arnold can only see the world in terms of Dispensationalism versus Covenantalism. He wears blinders that prevent him from perceiving that the whole topic is misguided.

You have already accused Arnold, a dispensationalist and personal friend of mine as believing in different plans of salvation. That is not a light charge. You should explain exactly how Fruchtenbaum's soteriology plays out in the 8 covenants of the scriptures. Forgive me for picking on you here but Messianic Believers should have more respect for each other by avoiding blanket statements and moving forward according to a pre conceived prejudice. To make that kind of claim and then expect others to give it a pass betokens unworthy scholarship. Fruchtenbaum in every thing he does is very thorough and complete in presenting the different views of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Just read his 1200 page doctrinal thesis from NYU which became one of his extremely valuable books - Israelogy the Missing Link in Systematic Theology.

Michael (gentile believer in the Messiaship of Yeshua)

 

[mercy1061]

Sorry, but I couldn't take your conclusions or anything else you wrote in your post seriously after you referenced a site that calls itself the "lunatic fringe"

The site does not call itself the "lunatic fringe". Why dont you actually read the comments on the page that I posted where they discuss the issues you propose. You can not refute what I say, you only can try to dismiss it by not thoroughly reading it. I think you need to improve your comprehension skills; and stop misrepresenting everything you read.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

You have already accused Arnold, a dispensationalist and personal friend of mine as believing in different plans of salvation. That is not a light charge. You should explain exactly how Fruchtenbaum's soteriology plays out in the 8 covenants of the scriptures. Forgive me for picking on you here but Messianic Believers should have more respect for each other by avoiding blanket statements and moving forward according to a pre conceived prejudice. To make that kind of claim and then expect others to give it a pass betokens unworthy scholarship. Fruchtenbaum in every thing he does is very thorough and complete in presenting the different views of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Just read his 1200 page doctrinal thesis from NYU which became one of his extremely valuable books - Israelogy the Missing Link in Systematic Theology.

Michael (gentile believer in the Messiaship of Yeshua)

Dr F is right on the money. What Messianic believers would have issue with is that the Law of Moses is done away with. But I think Dr F is misunderstood in this regard.

 

[mercy1061]

Dr F is right on the money. What Messianic believers would have issue with is that the Law of Moses is done away with. But I think Dr F is misunderstood in this regard.

The theory of "dispensations" all deal with an "expiration date". It attempts to limit how Adonai may deal with Israel or mankind as a whole. What they fail to understand is that G-d may do all that pleases Him:

Ps 115
3 Our God is in heaven;
he does whatever pleases him.

They seek to predict Adonai's next move without the ancient scriptures. What are your thoughts on "circumcision on the 8th day"?

 

[annier]

You have already accused Arnold, a dispensationalist and personal friend of mine as believing in different plans of salvation. That is not a light charge. You should explain exactly how Fruchtenbaum's soteriology plays out in the 8 covenants of the scriptures. Forgive me for picking on you here but Messianic Believers should have more respect for each other by avoiding blanket statements and moving forward according to a pre conceived prejudice. To make that kind of claim and then expect others to give it a pass betokens unworthy scholarship. Fruchtenbaum in every thing he does is very thorough and complete in presenting the different views of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Just read his 1200 page doctrinal thesis from NYU which became one of his extremely valuable books - Israelogy the Missing Link in Systematic Theology.

Michael (gentile believer in the Messiaship of Yeshua)

Heloo intojoy.
Can you list the eight covenants listed by Dr Fruchtembaum please? I have only listened to his Israelogy in part, from a link here just recently. I enjoyed him. I like to hear what Messianic scholars have to say.

 

[Avodat]

You have already accused Arnold, a dispensationalist and personal friend of mine as believing in different plans of salvation. That is not a light charge. You should explain exactly how Fruchtenbaum's soteriology plays out in the 8 covenants of the scriptures. Forgive me for picking on you here but Messianic Believers should have more respect for each other by avoiding blanket statements and moving forward according to a pre conceived prejudice. To make that kind of claim and then expect others to give it a pass betokens unworthy scholarship. Fruchtenbaum in every thing he does is very thorough and complete in presenting the different views of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Just read his 1200 page doctrinal thesis from NYU which became one of his extremely valuable books - Israelogy the Missing Link in Systematic Theology.

Michael (gentile believer in the Messiaship of Yeshua)

Intojoy - perhaps you should read peer reviews of Fructenbaum's works. Not everyone would agree entirely with your admitted emic view!

Allow me to quote just one such review. Referring to AF's theology: The shape of (his) theology is determined by a systematic and programmatic application of dispensationalist teaching and method to existential questions of Jewish identity and faith in Jesus... (his) God is the God of Protestant evangelicalism, articulated in the mode of revised Dispensationalism with little room for speculative thought or contextualisation. There is no use for Rabbinical or Jewish tradition unless it confirms and illustrates Biblical revelation as reflected through a dispensationalist hermenuetic... Orthodox Christology is viewed through a conservative evangelical lens. There are some attempts at translation into Jewish cultural contexts, but a literal rather than dynamic equivalence is sought.The Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in Messiah, and the Torah - seem as the dispensation of the Mosaic Law - has come to an end. Fructenbaum's articulate exposition appeals to those looking for a clear theological system...however, it also contains the weakness of Dispensationalism: its hermeneutical methods, its 19th century amalgam of rationalism, romanticism and historical consciousness; and the problem of Israel and the Church as two peoples of God. These will not gain acceptance with the majority of Messianic Jews, and they will look for alternatives.

Dr. Richard Harvey, Mapping Messianic Jewish Theology - a Constructive Approach. His book of peer reviews is commended by Dan Cohn-Sherbock; Darrell Bock; David Stern; Daniel Juster; Mark Kinzer et al. Dr. Harvey is Academic Dean and Tutor in Hebrew Bible & Jewish Studies at All Nations College in UK. He is also a Jew.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

. Just apologize that's good enough.

Heheh, I can't help but wonder what he has to apologize for.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

You have already accused Arnold, a dispensationalist and personal friend of mine as believing in different plans of salvation. That is not a light charge. You should explain exactly how Fruchtenbaum's soteriology plays out in the 8 covenants of the scriptures. Forgive me for picking on you here but Messianic Believers should have more respect for each other by avoiding blanket statements and moving forward according to a pre conceived prejudice. To make that kind of claim and then expect others to give it a pass betokens unworthy scholarship. Fruchtenbaum in every thing he does is very thorough and complete in presenting the different views of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Just read his 1200 page doctrinal thesis from NYU which became one of his extremely valuable books - Israelogy the Missing Link in Systematic Theology.

Michael (gentile believer in the Messiaship of Yeshua)

I know Ryrie, and Schofield but I don't know Fruchtenbaum, I saw you quote something from Fruchtenbaum, and what you quoted proved that he didn't know what he was talking about. Where is a person who is correct in everything? What you have shown me of Fruchtenbaum was not very thought out at all.

But then I'm not as smart as all of you guys, I can barely keep up with what you guys are saying cause I have to look so many words up.

All you guys sound like rocket scientists to me.

 

[Avodat]

I know Ryrie, and Schofield but I don't know Fruchtenbaum, I saw you quote something from Fruchtenbaum, and what you quoted proved that he didn't know what he was talking about. Where is a person who is correct in everything? What you have shown me of Fruchtenbaum was not very thought out at all.

But then I'm not as smart as all of you guys, I can barely keep up with what you guys are saying cause I have to look so many words up.

All you guys sound like rocket scientists to me.

Invest in a good, modern dictionary and try to understand. You can always come back here and ask for clarification.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

You have already accused Arnold, a dispensationalist and personal friend of mine as believing in different plans of salvation. That is not a light charge. You should explain exactly how Fruchtenbaum's soteriology plays out in the 8 covenants of the scriptures. Forgive me for picking on you here but Messianic Believers should have more respect for each other by avoiding blanket statements and moving forward according to a pre conceived prejudice. To make that kind of claim and then expect others to give it a pass betokens unworthy scholarship. Fruchtenbaum in every thing he does is very thorough and complete in presenting the different views of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Just read his 1200 page doctrinal thesis from NYU which became one of his extremely valuable books - Israelogy the Missing Link in Systematic Theology.

Michael (gentile believer in the Messiaship of Yeshua)

I remember what you came in here and said to Yedida, and I wrote a song about it, wanna hear it? Well here it goes...

Hippo, Hippo, Hippo, where do you get those big teeth.
Alligator, crocodile and the bush man run,
Look out for the hippo when he sits in the sun.


Hahah Just playin with ya Into, but really?

 

[mishkan]

I once wrote an article that blends several of the themes coming out in this thread. You can find it at the Mishkan David: Which Kingdom Will You Serve?

The earth is not stationary.

This verse does not state the earth is stationary; the earth can never be destroyed. Much in the same way mountains are firm, unmoveable; yet the earth can never be moved out of it's orbit around the sun. It was even said that the mountain could be cast into the sea; yet the mountain remain "unmoved" when it is cast into the sea.

Ps 93:1
Adonai is king, robed in majesty;
Adonai is robed, girded with strength;
The world is well established;
it cannot be moved.

1 Chr 16
30 Tremble before him, all the earth!
The world is firmly established, immovable.





Ec 1:5
5 The sun rises, the sun sets;
then it speeds to its place and rises there.

Ps 50:1
(1) The Mighty One, God, Adonai, is speaking,
summoning the world from east to west.

These scriptures above do not state the sun orbits around the earth. "Sunrise" and "Sunset" these terms still exist in our society today; the writer of psalms words are poetic in nature. The sun may appear to move to the naked eye; yet if we use an instrument we discover it is actually the earth that is "spinning" on it's axis, it is really the sun that stands still.

Josh 10
13 So the sun stood still and the moon stayed put,
till Isra’el took vengeance on their enemies.

Now we should know that the moon's orbit corresponds to the earth's orbit; as the earth's motion corresponds to the sun.



Do you hold the position of geocentrism?


Modern geocentrism - RationalWiki

Modern geocentrism is the conceit that, despite the observational work of Copernicus and Galileo, the mathematical work of Kepler and Newton, the corroborating data of thousands of astronomers in the centuries since, and NASA's use of the heliocentric model to land probes anywhere in the solar system, the Earth is the immobile center of the universe. The Michelson-Morley experiment — the failure to observe changes in the speed of light relative to the motion of the observer — is often cited as corroborating evidence for geocentrism, the idea being that the speed of light can only be constant if the Earth is not in motion. Given that geocentricism fails to explain much of the observational data of both modern astronomy and modern physics, virtually no one within the scientific community accepts geocentrism.
For the most part, geocentrism is the position of a small minority of complete idiots, those primarily being extremely literalist Christian fundamentalists. But to compound the problem, sometimes these idiots will get their ravings printed in the pseudoscientific journals of Creation Ministries International.[1]
A common crank argument sadly unavailable to geocentrists is "They laughed at Galileo!"

 

[annier]

Dr F is right on the money. What Messianic believers would have issue with is that the Law of Moses is done away with. But I think Dr F is misunderstood in this regard.

Is that because his views are often misrepresented? He seems to have had to deal with that before, with no acknowledgement from those whom did so.

 

[intojoy]

I remember what you came in here and said to Yedida, and I wrote a song about it, wanna hear it? Well here it goes...

Hippo, Hippo, Hippo, where do you get those big teeth.
Alligator, crocodile and the bush man run,
Look out for the hippo when he sits in the sun.

Hahah Just playin with ya Into, but really?

Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. (Romans 15:5-7 NASB)

 

[intojoy]

Yedida, what you said elsewhere was that Yeshua did not start a new religion and that He taught the Judaism of the first century and was in 100% agreement with the Jewish leaders of that day.
Prove it.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. (Romans 15:5-7 NASB)

Yup, I agree with the scripture, I'm just wondering how you can come in here and tell one of our nice ladies that they aren't following Christ.

You come here and insult our friends saying that they are not in Christ.

But then you come and talk about acceptance talking about respect when in fact, you have no respect.

 

[intojoy]

Yup, I agree with the scripture, I'm just wondering how you can come in here and tell one of our nice ladies that they aren't following Christ.

You come here and insult our friends saying that they are not in Christ.

But then you come and talk about acceptance talking about respect when in fact, you have no respect.

Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. (Romans 15:1, 2, 7 NASB)

 

[ananda]

The site does not call itself the "lunatic fringe". Why dont you actually read the comments on the page that I posted where they discuss the issues you propose. You can not refute what I say, you only can try to dismiss it by not thoroughly reading it. I think you need to improve your comprehension skills; and stop misrepresenting everything you read.

Really, now ... so what's this on the bottom right of your site's banner?:

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Is that because his views are often misrepresented? He seems to have had to deal with that before, with no acknowledgement from those whom did so.

Yes and no. The main thing that would get Messianic's in a hissy fit is the 'law of Moses is rendered in operative/not binding. Which is true per se and also isn't true per se. True in that we are in an age where it isn't binding.

Here's a response from Dr F....

"the Mosaic Law came to an end when Messiah died as a mandatory rule of life. Today we are under the Law of the Messiah but that will end with the establishment of the Kingdom and then we shall be under Kingdom Law. In the Kingdom Law there will be once again the observance of Passover and sacrifices but this will not be the same as those of the Mosaic Law. For example, under the Mosaic Law the observance of Passover was mandatory for Jews only but in the Kingdom it will be mandatory for both Jews and Gentiles. The sacrificial system of the Kingdom has many differences from the Mosaic system as in comparison with the Law of Moses and Kingdom Law in Ezekiel 40-48 will show. So when we deal with these things we are dealing with a new rule of life, Kingdom Law where some of these things will be brought in but not in the same way that it was under the Law of Moses."

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. (Romans 15:1, 2, 7 NASB)

Now you have lost me, are you posting these scripture in preparing your apology for not doing what the scripture says?

Or is your acceptance based on telling people they aren't in Christ first?

If you are asking for me to bear your weakness, then by all means, I will.

'' Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification, therefore accept one another.''

I have seen how you practice this.

You tell people they aren't following Christ and that they are not in Christ and refuse to talk to the supposed heathen.

Do you do this to please your neighbor for his good to edify?

 

[Avodat]

Now you have lost me, are you posting these scripture in preparing your apology for not doing what the scripture says?

Or is your acceptance based on telling people they aren't in Christ first?

If you are asking for me to bear your weakness, then by all means, I will.

'' Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification, therefore accept one another.''

I have seen how you practice this.

You tell people they aren't following Christ and that they are not in Christ and refuse to talk to the supposed heathen.

Do you do this to please your neighbor for his good to edify?

We had another poster who did this recently - just posted nice platitudes all the time when he/she was called out on something. Maybe this is a sock account