Technically speaking, everyone is agnostic

[Elioenai26]

You're not answering the objections people have.

How is it ethical for God to punish people for sinning when he imposed upon them at birth the predisposition towards sin?

It is ethical because God has made a way to escape punishment.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Your freedom is found in your capacity to make a choice.

Choose life, or choose death.

There is no third option.

Choosing life means you recognize you have fallen short of the glory of God and deserve life without God. It means you look at Christ on the cross and accept His atonement for your sins and receive Him as Lord and Savior.

Choosing death means you reject the offer of salvation and when you die you will be judged for the way you lived your life. Since you cannot meet God's righteous standard of Holiness, you will be sent to the place where you want to be, apart from God.

It is staggering that you cannot see the plain injustice of this. An atheist, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, could live a decent life, with honesty and compassion, and still be condemned to eternal damnation for not believing in the right dogmas. Whereas a person who lies, steals and kills for most of his life, and then "sees the light" and accepts Christ in the final minutes before his demise, is welcomed into an eternal paradise. Instead of acknowledging the deep injustice of this divine judicial system you cast aspersions on the character of those who dare question it, disparaging them as "selfish" and "arrogant" for deeming it wholly unjust.

 

[Gadarene]

People were offended at Christ for the exact reason you are offended at me. Because He told them they were sinners in need of a Savior.

That was the point of my other thread.

So just to be clear - we're putting ourselves on pedestals, but your comparisons of yourself and Christ constitute humility?

The issue is not that we're sinners in need of a saviour, and if you'd paid attention you'd know that. We do not believe that sin exists as we do not believe God exists, and you have not justified that. Therefore we do not think we need a saviour of the kind you mention as the problem does not exist, nor do we think Christ was divine in the way that you do, again unjustified.

I'm offended at you because you insist on knowing our motivations for our opinions better than we do rather than actually LISTENING to us, and engage in frequent misrepresentation of us (we're selfish, we're putting ourselves on pedestals, etc). You do this while engaging in your own hypocritical self-aggrandising (comparing yourself to Christ, complimenting yourself with Bible verses about your supposed "great love") and then declare that if we're offended, it's basically not your fault.

You are like your alleged deity in one respect - you have no sense whatsoever of what constitutes consistent behaviour and repeatedly pass the buck when it comes to taking responsibility. (And knowing you a comparison with God of any stripe will go down well with you - enjoy it)

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It is ethical because God has made a way to escape punishment.

A punishment that he instituted after he incompetently created human beings without any concept of right and wrong and then placed forbidden fruit within their reach. What did he expect them to do? It doesn't take an omniscient deity to figure out what is going to happen!

 

[Skavau]

It is ethical because God has made a way to escape punishment.

By this reasoning, it is ethical for Saudi Arabia to execute apostates because there is a way to escape the punishment. Not announcing your leaving of Islam and remain dishonest about it.

I am not sure though you would be so charitable there to grant that as a valid explanation (yet ironically I have seen Muslims make that exact argument for executing apostates).

God has indeed, made a method in escaping the punishment but the way to escape relies upon the individual believing a certain way (which is not motivated by choice) and also by consequence results in people who do not believe in that way, but whom believe in a different way to salvation (such as Muslims) condemned to hell. How is that just? Why does God have nothing to offer practitioners of other faith-based religions?

 

[Gadarene]

Ok, so why are you still talking with me then?

Why are you here on a Christian forum?

Are you trying to convince me that I am wrong about Christ?

Are you trying to convince me that I am unfair in saying you need a Savior?

I assure you my friend, if you do not know me by now, and what my convictions are, you have not been paying attention.

I know what your convictions are. I respond to you because people spewing as much nonsense as you need public correction, and frequently if they do not appear to be learning, which you do not appear to be.

I respond because I would truly hate for any passing/lurking unfortunate to think you were talking sense.

And I respond because I do enjoy watching apologists degenerate into a mess of hypocrisy and incompetence.

I can understand you are angry. People were angry just like you are now when Christ told them that unless they believed in Him, they would die in their sins.

Nope, again - I am angry at your repeated lies about atheists. This is your responsibility, and denial of this is nothing more than a total failure on your part to get your message across.

These are not my words, but God's.

Then your god is as inept as you are.

 

[Elioenai26]

It is staggering that you cannot see the plain injustice of this. An atheist, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, could live a decent life, with honesty and compassion, and still be condemned to eternal damnation for not believing

God is not concerned with you living a "decent" life. What is "decent" varies from person to person anyway and is subjective. If God exists, it is HIS STANDARD that we are measured by, not some made up standard that suits our fancy.

So you are right. Continue....

in the right dogmas.

Wrong.

For not believing in Christ for the remission of their sins you should have said......continue.....

Whereas a person who lies, steals and kills for most of his life, and then "sees the light" and accepts Christ in the final minutes before his demise,

The thief on the cross comes to mind....continue.....

is welcomed into an eternal paradise. Instead of acknowledging the deep injustice of this divine judicial system you cast aspersions on the character of those who dare question it, disparaging them as "selfish" and "arrogant" for deeming it wholly unjust.

Salvation is not some last ditch last effort escape hatch one jumps into after conciously making the decision to live a wicked life as long as they can.

Salvation is being saved from one's sins. However one comes to accept Christ, the important thing is that they accept Him, deathbed or not.

The only other alternative to what you call this "deep injustice" is that everybody be condemned for their sins.

Is that really what you would want to happeN?

 

[Gadarene]

The only other alternative to what you call this "deep injustice" is that everybody be condemned for their sins.

Is that really what you would want to happeN?

No, it's not the only alternative. To claim such belies an astonishing dearth of imagination.

 

[Skavau]

God is not concerned with you living a "decent" life. What is "decent" varies from person to person anyway and is subjective. If God exists, it is HIS STANDARD that we are measured by, not some made up standard that suits our fancy.

So you are right. Continue....

This elusive standard that appears to be total perfection (an absurd criterion to impose upon imperfect beings) with the opt-out of course being the permanent surrender of will and servitude towards God.

 

[Elioenai26]

I know what your convictions are. I respond to you because people spewing as much nonsense as you need public correction, and frequently if they do not appear to be learning, which you do not appear to be.

I respond because I would truly hate for any passing/lurking unfortunate to think you were talking sense.

And I respond because I do enjoy watching apologists degenerate into a mess of hypocrisy and incompetence.

LOL.... ok...

I still love ya Gadarene. No ill will here on my part.

Nope, again - I am angry at your repeated lies about atheists. This is your responsibility, and denial of this is nothing more than a total failure on your part to get your message across.



Then your god is as inept as you are.

My message is the same you have heard your entire life, and one you will continue to hear as long as Christians care enough to tell you that you need Christ.

 

[Elioenai26]

This elusive standard that appears to be total perfection (an absurd criterion to impose upon imperfect beings) with the opt-out of course being the permanent surrender of will and servitude towards God.

You are right. God's standard is total moral perfection and is elusive to man. In fact, it is impossible for a man to live up to God's holiness in and of himself.

Now you are understanding why Christ is so necessary.

 

[Gadarene]

LOL.... ok...

I still love ya Gadarene. No ill will here on my part.

If there's really no ill will on your part, then publicly retract your smears.

My message is the same you have heard your entire life, and one you will continue to hear as long as Christians care enough to tell you that you need Christ.

Well, no actually, because you see, many Christians are capable of witnessing without implying that atheists are selfish, or putting themselves on pedestals, or aren't fully capable of putting others' needs first.

You are simply not one of the more competent ones, and fall headlong into all these blunders.

 

[Skavau]

You are right. God's standard is total moral perfection and is elusive to man. In fact, it is impossible for a man to live up to God's holiness in and of himself.

So God judging us by that standard is absurd.

Now you are understanding why Christ is so necessary.

No, I am understanding that God imposes absurd standards upon humanity and institutes a single solution that only picks up at most 30% of the human population alive and condemns others not even aware of the oncoming judgement.

 

[Elioenai26]

So just to be clear - we're putting ourselves on pedestals, but your comparisons of yourself and Christ constitute humility?

Where have I compared myself with Christ?

If anything I have repeatedly said I am nothing without Him, miserable, and weak....

The issue is not that we're sinners in need of a saviour, and if you'd paid attention you'd know that. We do not believe that sin exists as we do not believe God exists, and you have not justified that. Therefore we do not think we need a saviour of the kind you mention as the problem does not exist, nor do we think Christ was divine in the way that you do, again unjustified.

And some people don't think the Holocaust ever happened.....

I'm offended at you because you insist on knowing our motivations for our opinions better than we do rather than actually LISTENING to us, and engage in frequent misrepresentation of us (we're selfish, we're putting ourselves on pedestals, etc). You do this while engaging in your own hypocritical self-aggrandising (comparing yourself to Christ, complimenting yourself with Bible verses about your supposed "great love") and then declare that if we're offended, it's basically not your fault.

You are like your alleged deity in one respect - you have no sense whatsoever of what constitutes consistent behaviour and repeatedly pass the buck when it comes to taking responsibility. (And knowing you a comparison with God of any stripe will go down well with you - enjoy it)

I know what God has said about those who deny He exists. That is all I need to go by.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God is not concerned with you living a "decent" life. What is "decent" varies from person to person anyway and is subjective.
If God exists, it is HIS STANDARD that we are measured by, not some made up standard that suits our fancy.

So you are right. Continue....

Wrong.

For not believing in Christ for the remission of their sins you should have said......continue.....

Exactly: for not believing in the right dogmas.

The thief on the cross comes to mind....continue.....

Salvation is not some last ditch last effort escape hatch one jumps into after conciously making the decision to live a wicked life as long as they can.

Salvation is being saved from one's sins. However one comes to accept Christ, the important thing is that they accept Him, deathbed or not.

Exactly: you have to believe in the right dogma. It doesn't matter how you behave. It doesn't matter how honest or compassionate you are. It doesn't matter how vile or wicked you are. If you don't believe in the right dogma, or if you aren't born into a culture that believes in the right dogma, you are condemned to eternal torment.

The only other alternative to what you call this "deep injustice" is that everybody be condemned for their sins.

Is that really what you would want to happeN?

That isn't the only alternative.

 

[Gadarene]

Where have I compared myself with Christ?

If anything I have repeatedly said I am nothing without Him, miserable, and weak....

While talking about your "great love" for others and claiming that people are offended at you for the same reason they were offended at Christ.

And some people don't think the Holocaust ever happened.....

Which is not comparable, as that has evidence for it.

I know what God has said about those who deny He exists. That is all I need to go by.

And that is why you will keep failing.

 

[Skavau]

Where have I compared myself with Christ?

If anything I have repeatedly said I am nothing without Him, miserable, and weak....

You keep comparing how you're being received to how people received Jesus.

And some people don't think the Holocaust ever happened.....

Oh come on, is this meant to be serious? You think the existence of sin is as established as the historical fact of the Holocaust?

I know what God has said about those who deny He exists. That is all I need to go by.

So does this mean that when we tell you that you're presuming to speak for us you'll ignore us and continue to smear us? How is this participation in good faith?

 

[Skavau]

Elioenai is the punishment for apostasy from Islam across much of the Islamic world moral, yes or no?

 

[Elioenai26]

Which is not comparable, as that has evidence for it.

According to some, that is not the case.

And that is why you will keep failing.

So you say.

But you are not God, you are a man in whose nostrils is his breath.

It is better for me to obey God than to seek to please you.

 

[Elioenai26]

Elioenai is the punishment for apostasy from Islam across much of the Islamic world moral, yes or no?

No.

If someone no longer wants to be an adherent to a religion, I do not think that members of said religion should kill the person because of that. If that is what you are alluding to.