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Moral constructivism

Ripheus27

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Forgive me to the extent that I am incorrect to say so, but might we say that moral objectivism is the view that moral value inheres in objects (perhaps actions can be considered objects in some sense, if events admit of such consideration) themselves and moral subjectivism that the same value depends purely on subjective projection onto objects?

Now the problem with the first view, so defined, is that it is almost infinitely difficult to prove (however loud in their certainty some moral objectivists have been), whereas the problem with the second is that it makes it seem arbitrary for something to be morally valuable (and morality is certainly not supposed to be so arbitrary). Here, then, I think, is where moral constructivism provides an elegant solution: although no object inherently is good in the moral objectivist sense, only some are inherently able to be good--that is, able to have moral value subjectively projected on to them. And it is the objective features of these objects that contribute to the possibility of such projection, wherefore it is not so arbitrary for something to be good (it is arbitrary inasmuch as we might refrain from exercising our power of moral projection to render anything valuable, but not "random" enough that we could just up and decide to make genocide into grace, for instance).
 

Paradoxum

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Would that simply be a condition of human psychology on this view then? ie: Psychologically it isn't possible for humans to value murder just for fun?

Would that mean that an alien could have very different 'morals'?

I guess my view is similar, in that I think morality comes from taking a certain perspective. I would say a justifiable moral perspective isn't arbitrary though, but rather based on an objective point of view of standing back and considering the facts outside oneself (eg: the will and feelings of others).
 
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souper genyus

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Forgive me to the extent that I am incorrect to say so, but might we say that moral objectivism is the view that moral value inheres in objects (perhaps actions can be considered objects in some sense, if events admit of such consideration) themselves and moral subjectivism that the same value depends purely on subjective projection onto objects?

Now the problem with the first view, so defined, is that it is almost infinitely difficult to prove (however loud in their certainty some moral objectivists have been), whereas the problem with the second is that it makes it seem arbitrary for something to be morally valuable (and morality is certainly not supposed to be so arbitrary). Here, then, I think, is where moral constructivism provides an elegant solution: although no object inherently is good in the moral objectivist sense, only some are inherently able to be good--that is, able to have moral value subjectively projected on to them. And it is the objective features of these objects that contribute to the possibility of such projection, wherefore it is not so arbitrary for something to be good (it is arbitrary inasmuch as we might refrain from exercising our power of moral projection to render anything valuable, but not "random" enough that we could just up and decide to make genocide into grace, for instance).

Moral pragmatism is a similar doctrine to constructivism, but IMO it has a leg up. Constructivism has individuals entering into hypothetical deliberation with their intuitions alone to determine right and wrong. A moral pragmatist, on the other hand, would have question whether or not idealized hypotheticals could relate to our practical lives. Of course, such deliberation is important, but it needs to be tested in experience.

For example: communism seems good on paper, but any time it was tested historically it failed. More recent research into human nature makes it clear why. The main problem with state communism was it tried to extend familial relationships to society at large. Humans just can't do that, no matter how great it would be if we could.
 
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Ripheus27

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Constructivism has individuals entering into hypothetical deliberation with their intuitions alone to determine right and wrong.

Well, that might be how Rawls' constructivism works in a sort of epistemological sense, but the pure Kantian version of the theory doesn't have to rely on intuitions.

As for communism, I can't comment too much. On the one hand, I've not read a lot of Marx. On another, I'm not sure how faithful to Marx the Leninists, et. al. really were. On a third (although personally I'm only two-handed, and not too handy with my feet unless it comes to walking), I don't think moral constructivism can be used to ground even communism as I know it.
 
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Ripheus27

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Would that simply be a condition of human psychology on this view then? ie: Psychologically it isn't possible for humans to value murder just for fun?

Would that mean that an alien could have very different 'morals'?]

I think people can kill for fun, and they can prioritize this fun, too. Isn't that the kind of motivation serial killers often have--they make murder into their primary form of entertainment? So on my view, we have to differentiate between entertainment value and moral value. There are special rules that go into the projection of the latter onto extra-mental states of affairs that preclude indiscriminately attaching it to those states. There's something about murder, then, that blocks the projection. (Of course, without anyone projecting goodness onto life in the first place, we might end up with murder as no less than merely permitted, as far as what I've so far said goes.)

(The projection-blocking conditions might be related to the perspectival factors you cite in the justification of moral attitudes.)
 
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souper genyus

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Well, that might be how Rawls' constructivism works in a sort of epistemological sense, but the pure Kantian version of the theory doesn't have to rely on intuitions.
Kant's entire philosophy relies on intuitions...

Rawls based his theory of justice upon Kantian assumptions.

As for communism, I can't comment too much. On the one hand, I've not read a lot of Marx. On another, I'm not sure how faithful to Marx the Leninists, et. al. really were. On a third (although personally I'm only two-handed, and not too handy with my feet unless it comes to walking), I don't think moral constructivism can be used to ground even communism as I know it.

The point is that it is impossible for human beings to be "faithful to Marx," as it is contrary to human nature.

And, as I mentioned, the problem with moral constructivism is that it depends purely upon an individual's intuitions. There is no basis to test different people's intuitions.
 
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Ripheus27

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Kant's entire philosophy relies on intuitions...

Just because the word "intuition" is used to translate "Anschauung" from Kant's work doesn't mean that Kant's "intuitions" have so much to do with normal English-speakers' intuitions. And in any event, he expressly makes a point in the Critique of Practical Reason that the synthetic apriority of the categorical imperative is not based on even an a priori intuition.

And once again, I can't comment on Marxism's consistency or inconsistency with "human nature," since I don't know enough about either subject as such to honestly comment.
 
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Paradoxum

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I think people can kill for fun, and they can prioritize this fun, too. Isn't that the kind of motivation serial killers often have--they make murder into their primary form of entertainment? So on my view, we have to differentiate between entertainment value and moral value. There are special rules that go into the projection of the latter onto extra-mental states of affairs that preclude indiscriminately attaching it to those states. There's something about murder, then, that blocks the projection. (Of course, without anyone projecting goodness onto life in the first place, we might end up with murder as no less than merely permitted, as far as what I've so far said goes.)

(The projection-blocking conditions might be related to the perspectival factors you cite in the justification of moral attitudes.)

What do you think makes moral valuing a specific type of valuing?
 
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quatona

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Forgive me to the extent that I am incorrect to say so, but might we say that moral objectivism is the view that moral value inheres in objects (perhaps actions can be considered objects in some sense, if events admit of such consideration) themselves and moral subjectivism that the same value depends purely on subjective projection onto objects?

Now the problem with the first view, so defined, is that it is almost infinitely difficult to prove (however loud in their certainty some moral objectivists have been), whereas the problem with the second is that it makes it seem arbitrary for something to be morally valuable (and morality is certainly not supposed to be so arbitrary). Here, then, I think, is where moral constructivism provides an elegant solution: although no object inherently is good in the moral objectivist sense, only some are inherently able to be good--that is, able to have moral value subjectively projected on to them. And it is the objective features of these objects that contribute to the possibility of such projection, wherefore it is not so arbitrary for something to be good (it is arbitrary inasmuch as we might refrain from exercising our power of moral projection to render anything valuable, but not "random" enough that we could just up and decide to make genocide into grace, for instance).
Neither am I convinced that this is really a tenet of constructivism nor do I see the elegance of it.

To me, it seems to be still the futile attempt to ascribe properties to objects that actually are "but" our projection. I don´t think it makes much sense to assume that a moral potential for a value is inherent to an object, anymore than assuming that the value is inherent to an object.

On another note, I don´t think that the moral subjectivsm renders values completely arbitrary. Seeing how we are all made of the same cloth I would expect our projections - even though they may vary to an extent - not to be completely arbitrary. It´s the similarity of our projections that is securing (more or less) broad agreements on values. The values (or, as your solution proposes) the potential for values of objects is not inherent to the objects but to our projections.

On a final note, even if we had to conclude that moral values are completely arbitrary, and even if we didn´t like this fact - I am not a great fan of argument from consequence fallacies. ;)
 
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souper genyus

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Just because the word "intuition" is used to translate "Anschauung" from Kant's work doesn't mean that Kant's "intuitions" have so much to do with normal English-speakers' intuitions.
I used in it the sense that Rawls and Kant use it.

And in any event, he expressly makes a point in the Critique of Practical Reason that the synthetic apriority of the categorical imperative is not based on even an a priori intuition.
Do you have the chapter and section where he says that?
 
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Ripheus27

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Do you have the chapter and section where he says that?

http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/kant/Critique-Practical-Reason.pdf page 31:
We may call the consciousness of this fundamental law a fact of reason, because we cannot reason it out from antecedent data of reason, e.g., the consciousness of freedom (for this is not antecedently given), but it forces itself on us as a synthetic a priori proposition, which is not based on any intuition, either pure or empirical. It would, indeed, be analytical if the freedom of the will were presupposed, but to presuppose freedom as a positive concept would require an intellectual intuition, which cannot here be assumed...​

In Kant's work, an intuition is just to be understood as the representation of reality in its particularity, which contrasts with discursion, which is generally abstract. In Rawls an intuition is a subjective sense of approval towards various propositions related to the virtue of, say, justice.
 
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souper genyus

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page 31:
We may call the consciousness of this fundamental law a fact of reason, because we cannot reason it out from antecedent data of reason, e.g., the consciousness of freedom (for this is not antecedently given), but it forces itself on us as a synthetic a priori proposition, which is not based on any intuition, either pure or empirical. It would, indeed, be analytical if the freedom of the will were presupposed, but to presuppose freedom as a positive concept would require an intellectual intuition, which cannot here be assumed...​

In Kant's work, an intuition is just to be understood as the representation of reality in its particularity, which contrasts with discursion, which is generally abstract. In Rawls an intuition is a subjective sense of approval towards various propositions related to the virtue of, say, justice.

Thank you. Semantics aside, Kant's entire philosophy is exploded. His transcendental idealism has been rendered obsolete by a more modern understanding of human psychology, cognition, and evolution, as well as contemporary philosophy. In short, our brains are information processors which evolved through natural selection to serve a functional purpose-to allow us to communicate with, understand, and outwit each other; to reconstruct our environment, hunt prey, forecast events, etc. Nothing transcendental is needed to explain our ability to make any sort of judgments. And of course in this view there is no room for moral absolutism in the form of a categorical imperative. Morality evolved as instinct and serves to encourage cooperation amongst members of a social group.

Kant's idea that a transcendental origin of our most basic judgments arose out of the problems with early empiricism's theory of mind. Kant was right that Hume had no way of explaining how math works. But, empirical psychology has pretty much solved this issue.
 
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Ripheus27

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What do you think makes moral valuing a specific type of valuing?

Well, I think valuing can be conceptually analyzed as a matter of priorities. I.e how we value something is how we prioritize it. The bare form of the concept of morality is that of something that binds us despite all other desires, something that overrides, trumps, all other motives. Now the only way we can be bound is by ourselves, i.e. when we set our intent on some over all else. So our obligations have to emerge from the bare existence of our willpower, this is kind of like their substance, though we speak of action/s, which can be physically conceived mostly as events, but even here transcendentally are just so enigmatic and unclear that we cannot substantially answer a lot about the concrete facts of the matter.

But I think we can, by our ability to ask questions, and to reflect on this ability in turn, "step back" in a tangible way, if you will, from the normal flow of cause and effect. If I ask something that pressuring me, "Why?" I free myself from just giving into that pressure, and this is a power I can wield only from the heart of my mind. Now since the ideal output of an erotetic function is a true answer (since the "natural" purpose of asking questions is to learn true answers), then the abstract conception of truth would in turn be constitutive of our ethical motivation--that is, by invoking our pure erotetic power to generate a category of question, the, "Why do that?" type of question, as a way to intercede in the regular order of physical reality as if by a miracle (or so many legends would say), which power is quintessentially interwoven with the general relationship between questions and answers, so that the force of proofs is integral to our being free of will and therefore given to ethical responsibility.

Maybe this all sounds implausibly mystical, or a lot of it might anyway... *Shrugs* Consider also that assent and denial are functions that ramify into both a declarative and an imperative operation, i.e. we can assent to/deny propositions of both the intellectual and the criminal kind (or so normal (American) English goes). Now questions assume pure forms as open or algebraic, i.e. yes-no questions and questions with words like "who," "what," "where," "how," and "why." If our ability to ask questions is prior to all others in our internal consciousness in its exercise (which strikes me with some strangely plain accord), which is indicated, arguably, in the essence of problems like the transfinite epistemological regress (btw, I'm citing a series of mostly analytic-philosophy debated topics right now), the semantic content of pure instrumental music (basically, the notes in the song serve as variables in an equation whose ultimate evaluation is expressed in a certain evocation of emotion, and the "purpose" of a song as such is to elicit attempts to style lyrics to match the thing in versicle meaning), negative-theology concepts of God (that God is to be conceived of as mysterious to us, and this mystery made the emphasis of the nature of God's relationship with us--perhaps subconsciously so that believers hold out hope of one day learning the answer to It?), and I think in the definition of dichotomies like that between analytic and synthetic truth or in consciousness-based functions like attention--if only in the pure concept of mystery within ourselves alone could we "step back" into a void behind determinstic cause-and-effect, this would prove that our most sacred form of understanding, the one that came first and last before and after all others, the a priori state that our consciousness inherently implies by its sheer existence, is to a priori imagine what it would be like to imagine a question that eclipsed all other reality (whereby it corresponds to our abstract notion of obligation as a matter of final priority, as what we set first in the world of our intentions).
 
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Ripheus27

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Thank you. Semantics aside, Kant's entire philosophy is exploded. His transcendental idealism has been rendered obsolete by a more modern understanding of human psychology, cognition, and evolution, as well as contemporary philosophy. In short, our brains are information processors which evolved through natural selection to serve a functional purpose-to allow us to communicate with, understand, and outwit each other; to reconstruct our environment, hunt prey, forecast events, etc. Nothing transcendental is needed to explain our ability to make any sort of judgments. And of course in this view there is no room for moral absolutism in the form of a categorical imperative. Morality evolved as instinct and serves to encourage cooperation amongst members of a social group.

Kant's idea that a transcendental origin of our most basic judgments arose out of the problems with early empiricism's theory of mind. Kant was right that Hume had no way of explaining how math works. But, empirical psychology has pretty much solved this issue.

As I understand it, much of the contemporary field of actual cognitive science is neo-Kantian in many aspects at the least, and that there is more to morality than psychology. That is, the concept of morality is not actually identical to the concept of "cooperation amongst members of a social group."

EDIT: Rawls' evolution of Kant's ethics in the sphere of political philosophy is still a major influence in ethical philosophy, isn't it?
 
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souper genyus

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As I understand it, much of the contemporary field of actual cognitive science is neo-Kantian in many aspects at the least,
In a sense, a lot of what Kant said was confirmed. But there's a catch. In A Critique of Pure Reason, Kant argued that "metaphysics must be considered as really existing, if not as a science, nevertheless as a natural disposition of the human mind" (Intro§VI). Cognitive scientists have moved towards the latter. Synthetic judgments a priori do not reflect nature. Metaphysics is not a science.

Educational theorist and cognitive scientist Howard Gardner in his book The Unschooled Mind argues that Kantian categories, apart from reflecting reality, are constraints upon our understanding of it. He refers to them as "Kantian-Einsteinian constraints," because Einstein taught us very well indeed that our understanding of objects, space, and time can change drastically through empirical inquiry, even though it is nearly impossible for most people to have a firm understanding of the world in the Einsteinian view. Our intuitions and our non-inferential judgments result from the rules of the particular symbol system in which we are dealing with and do not necessarily reflect nature. They, at best, are short-hand approximations of the laws by which our immediate environment operates.

and that there is more to morality than psychology. That is, the concept of morality is not actually identical to the concept of "cooperation amongst members of a social group."
No, of course not, but our moral intuitions evolved to better facilitate group cooperation. Morality, as I see it, is the act of maintaining a balance between individuality and social responsibility.

EDIT: Rawls' evolution of Kant's ethics in the sphere of political philosophy is still a major influence in ethical philosophy, isn't it?
Sure, but even Rawls stated that he relied on Kant for lack of a better foundation, IIRC. That was in 1975. Empirical psychology moves at a much faster pace than philosophy.
 
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Ripheus27

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Educational theorist and cognitive scientist Howard Gardner in his book The Unschooled Mind argues that Kantian categories, apart from reflecting reality, are constraints upon our understanding of it. He refers to them as "Kantian-Einsteinian constraints," because Einstein taught us very well indeed that our understanding of objects, space, and time can change drastically through empirical inquiry, even though it is nearly impossible for most people to have a firm understanding of the world in the Einsteinian view. Our intuitions and our non-inferential judgments result from the rules of the particular symbol system in which we are dealing with and do not necessarily reflect nature. They, at best, are short-hand approximations of the laws by which our immediate environment operates.

I'm not that familiar with Einstein's physics, but I know Kant well enough to know that it sounds like Einstein's philosophy was different from Kant's. Now you know where theoretical physics has gone these days? Look up Max Tegmark for a scientifically defensible theory of a world perhaps at least as amazing as Kant's noumenal-phenomenal emanation theorem might strike some people (especially when he describes the distance there is within is between our knowledge of infinite self-commandment and finite physical causation, how the transcendental freedom we are given by the former... well, perhaps this all sounds more flowery than Plato).

Then again, there are also the deconstructionists(?) who would critique the nature of scientific language's self-applied justification.

The best point you can make on Kant's behalf is the concision of his most decisive arguments. Like since ought implies can, then we always have the power to do what we ought to, no matter what we actually end up doing, which means we make choices that violate physical causation unless they take place in fact in some transcendental eternity where time's linear relationships are not the ultimate structure of that world's laws. Since in theoretical physics hypertemporal physics are actually nowadays under accredited consideration, this opens up a lot of space for Kantian metaphysics to be assimilated more celestially to contemporary science. You know Kant figured out how galaxies form just by thinking about it? He imagined the force of gravity operating on masses of energy in these gyring waves that forged stars that emanated planets and so on until presto, galaxy.

No, of course not, but our moral intuitions evolved to better facilitate group cooperation. Morality, as I see it, is the act of maintaining a balance between individuality and social responsibility.

Loads of people have moral intuitions that promote destruction. The concept of morality isn't the same as the concept of group cooperation. Group cooperation is something that has to be itself justified to count as morally good by a moral philosophical theory's lights.

Sure, but even Rawls stated that he relied on Kant for lack of a better foundation, IIRC. That was in 1975. Empirical psychology moves at a much faster pace than philosophy.

Philosophy doesn't work like that. It's more about refining questions than calcifying one's mind with attempted answers. That's part of why it seems like it never goes anywhere. More importantly, what Rawls wrote in A Theory of Justice was a very complex argument in support of two moral principles that he proposed were as close to the truth as any had been able to argue for before with regard to certain moral issues. It was published first in 1971, and part of its meaning was a barely veiled reference to the immorality of the American war in Southeast Asia at the time. So some of its arguments involve reference to say, the justification of civil disobedience. These are subsumed under the concept of the argument from the original position, which helps us to imagine more clearly what it is when we say that civil disobedience is justified in the face of diabolical evil on the part of our own government (as was underway at the time). In the original position, a supportive community is established but not out of compassion for others nor out of self-absorption. As Rawls says in game-theoretic terms (which are very important in the theoretical-physics parallel for, say, evolutionary biology, genetics, or even computing), the players in the Game of the Initial Situation aren't trying to directly help any other player, but they're not trying to directly hurt any of them, either: they all strive for the independent highest score possible in the Game by itself. Suppose they're all playing pinball at the same time, the same set of tables: they're not going to be directly be competing with anyone else, they should be concerned just how just the world would be if justified the way the score in the Game would be as long was everyone was given a chance to play the Game together throughout every land in all the world sub species aeternitatis(sp.?)--in the light of all eternity.

You can imagine how relevant the idea is here that mathematics is a fictional structure that is yet somehow true and false in what it says--as if mathematics is the story that has been passed down through that ages with a certain inner symbolic meaning that can evolve into this perhaps weird patterns like the aleph-numbers. Now the aleph-numbers are said to be--and actually the proof of this is so simple anyone young enough to understand infinite non-repeating decimals in relation to repeating ones, the counting numbers, etc. supposedly can be given to understand it--and this is the foundation of all contemporary mathematics and therefore computing and theoretical physics--the overriding form of proof for anything nowadays in science, perhaps--the transfinite numbers are different orders of infinity. So aleph-zero is the first infinity, the infinity of the numbers up to and including infinitely repeating decimals, and aleph-one I think is the infinity of the real numbers, or maybe there's this unsolved question in mathematics as to if there are numbers infinitely between these two, I don't remember, but that's kind of not even the start of it. Because we can anyway say there's an aleph-zero, we can say there's an aleph-one, an aleph-two, an aleph-three, and so on and on. These are all infinities that are greater in magnitude than the prior, even if we don't know anything else about, say, aleph-seventy-trillion. Yet that's not even the end of it.

What happens is you can say that there's also aleph-aleph-zero, aleph-aleph-one, and so on, then also aleph-aleph-aleph-zero and so on, and so on and on and on. You can do a bunch of other stuff to prove the existence of so many more orders and kinds, you find out some aren't "accessible" (I never remember what that means), and that there might even be an Absolute Infinite--the unconditional transcendental reason whereby all possible infinity is united.
 
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