The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

[Timothew]

If you make the charge that something is out-of-context, you need to prove it. I'm waiting.

You were the one who claimed that I was taking Romans 6:23 out of context by believing that the wages of sin is death, just as it says. If you want to take Revelation literally, that is your option. I understand the genre.

You made the charge that I took Romans 6:23 out of context, as you say, you need to prove that.

BTW "I'm waiting" is kind of a rude thing to say. Are you sure that is how you want to discuss this?

 

[C.O.Ioves]

For example,

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Treatise 8 On Works And Alms

Assuredly he may fear to die, who, not being regenerated of water and the Spirit, is delivered over to the fires of Gehenna; he may fear to die who is not enrolled in the cross and passion of Christ; he may fear to die, who from this death shall pass over to a second death; he may fear to die, whom on his departure from this world eternal flame shall torment with never-ending punishments; he may fear to die who has this advantage in a lengthened delay, that in the meanwhile his groanings and his anguish are being postponed.​

Yes, there are those who believed that there is eternal conscious torment. I'm saying that the Bible does not support that. The early church was mixed in opinion, just as we are today.

That is an empty assertion and I am afraid that is not good enough. If you think the early church was wrong then you need to prove it. Your objections, arguments, presuppositions, etc. are not evidence. What would be nice would be some credible, verifiable, historical, lexical evidence.

 

[C.O.Ioves]

You were the one who claimed that I was taking Romans 6:23 out of context by believing that the wages of sin is death, just as it says. If you want to take Revelation literally, that is your option. I understand the genre.

You made the charge that I took Romans 6:23 out of context, as you say, you need to prove that.

BTW "I'm waiting" is kind of a rude thing to say. Are you sure that is how you want to discuss this?

My apologies if my comment was rude. I just reviewed every one of my posts in this thread and I cannot find where I told you your quote Rom 6:23 out-of-context. Here is what I did say.

. . . The wages of sin is death. But the Bible does not say death, resurrection, then death again. I'm sure you have been told before, that everybody has sinned and everybody dies And it is appointed to man once to die then the judgment. That means everybody, the good, the bad and the ugly.dies.

You are aware that in addition to the story of the rich man and Lazarus there are scriptures that describe dead men in Sheol speaking, moving, etc. The Bible says nothing about their sins being forgiven. There quite evidently is some kind of conscious awareness which is not "eternal life."

 

[Timothew]

My apologies if my comment was rude. I just reviewed every one of my posts in this thread and I cannot find where I told you your quote Rom 6:23 out-of-context. Here is what I did say.

Originally Posted by Timothew

At least, according to the Bible.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is good news for those whose Lord is Jesus Christ. Rather bad news for those who reject Jesus Christ, since they will not receive eternal life, not in hell being tortured, or anywhere else. According to the Bible, The wicked will be destroyed.

The wages of sin is death. Dead means "not alive".
In order to have eternal life, a person has to be "not dead".
In order to be "not dead", a person has to have their sins forgiven, because the wages of sin is death.
​

Over and over and over, the same old arguments and the same handful of out-of-context proof texts.

You didn't see where you said that I took Romans 6:23 out of context? Do you see it now? You remind me of an old shepherd I knew.

 

[Timothew]

That is an empty assertion and I am afraid that is not good enough. If you think the early church was wrong then you need to prove it. Your objections, arguments, presuppositions, etc. are not evidence. What would be nice would be some credible, verifiable, historical, lexical evidence.

Okay, it was an assertion, it was not empty. Read the works of Irenaeus to see an early church father who believed that the wicked do not continue to exist forever.

 

[C.O.Ioves]

Okay, it was an assertion, it was not empty. Read the works of Irenaeus to see an early church father who believed that the wicked do not continue to exist forever.

I have read Irenaeus. I find that he said much more than what you refer to.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3 CHAPTER 34

Souls Can Be Recognized In The Separate State, And Are Immortal Although They Once Had A Beginning

1. The Lord has taught with very great fullness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, — in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.

Book 2 Chap 28

That eternal fire, is prepared for sinners, both the Lord has plainly declared, and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate. And that God foreknew that this would happen, the Scriptures do in like manner demonstrate, since He prepared eternal fire from the beginning for those who were [afterwards] to transgress [His commandments];

Book 2 Chap 33
Those, on the other hand, who are worthy of punishment, shall go away into it, they too having their own souls and their own bodies, in which they stood apart from the grace of God. Both classes shall then cease from any longer begetting and being begotten, from marrying and being given in marriage; so that the number of mankind, corresponding to the fore-ordination of God, being completed, may fully realize the scheme formed by the Father.

the Savior of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent.

Book 2 Chap 32
And this same thing does the Lord also say in the Gospel, to those who are found upon the left hand: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into ever: lasting fire, which my Father hath prepared for the devil and his angels;” indicating that eternal fire was not originally prepared for man, but for him who beguiled man, and caused him to offend — for him, I say, who is chief of the apostasy, and for those angels who became apostates along with him; which [fire], indeed, they too shall justly feel, who, like him, persevere in works of wickedness, without repentance, and without retracing their steps.

Book 3 Chap 28
Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God [displayed] when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly: for the fire is eternal, and the wrath of God which shall be revealed from heaven from the face of our Lord (as David also says, “But the face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth”), entails a heavier punishment on those who incur it, — the elders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, [arguing] from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavor to bring in another Father, setting over against [these punishments] what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him,
. . .
so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,” these shall be damned for ever;

Book 4 Chap 39
Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.
​

 

[Tigger45]

Okay, it was an assertion, it was not empty. Read the works of Irenaeus to see an early church father who believed that the wicked do not continue to exist forever.

Picking out a single advocate against eternal punishment works against your arguement considering the vast majority of early christian writers taught of an eternal punishment.

 

[Timothew]

Picking out a single advocate against eternal punishment works against your arguement considering the vast majority of early christian writers taught of an eternal punishment.

Not really.
1. It shows that "not all" early Christians believed in eternal torment.
2. My argument was always that the Bible supports the fact that the wages of sin is death, and doesn't support eternal conscious torment.
3. I only mentioned one ECF (Early Church Father), there are others who didn't believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment).
4. We are only talking about ECFs at all because someone else brought them up, not me. I don't believe that ECF writing is canonical.
5. Many of the ECFs who are claimed to be in favor of ECF are using the same Biblical language in their writing that ECT supporters today claim supprt ECT. (For example, a ECF may use the phrase "eternal fire" so an ECTist may claim them for their side, even though "eternal fire" supports our side too.)

Look, if you don't want to believe that the penalty for sin is death instead of Eternal Conscious Torment, don't look into this. Just turn your head and walk away. I'm merely saying what the Bible says. The wages of sin is death. I haven't added to that or taken anything away from that. I've shown from other scriptures that the wages of sin really is death.

 

[Timothew]

I have read Irenaeus. I find that he said much more than what you refer to.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3 CHAPTER 34

Souls Can Be Recognized In The Separate State, And Are Immortal Although They Once Had A Beginning

1. The Lord has taught with very great fullness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, — in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.

Book 2 Chap 28

That eternal fire, is prepared for sinners, both the Lord has plainly declared, and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate. And that God foreknew that this would happen, the Scriptures do in like manner demonstrate, since He prepared eternal fire from the beginning for those who were [afterwards] to transgress [His commandments];

Book 2 Chap 33
Those, on the other hand, who are worthy of punishment, shall go away into it, they too having their own souls and their own bodies, in which they stood apart from the grace of God. Both classes shall then cease from any longer begetting and being begotten, from marrying and being given in marriage; so that the number of mankind, corresponding to the fore-ordination of God, being completed, may fully realize the scheme formed by the Father.

the Savior of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent.

Book 2 Chap 32
And this same thing does the Lord also say in the Gospel, to those who are found upon the left hand: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into ever: lasting fire, which my Father hath prepared for the devil and his angels;” indicating that eternal fire was not originally prepared for man, but for him who beguiled man, and caused him to offend — for him, I say, who is chief of the apostasy, and for those angels who became apostates along with him; which [fire], indeed, they too shall justly feel, who, like him, persevere in works of wickedness, without repentance, and without retracing their steps.

Book 3 Chap 28
Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God [displayed] when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly: for the fire is eternal, and the wrath of God which shall be revealed from heaven from the face of our Lord (as David also says, “But the face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth”), entails a heavier punishment on those who incur it, — the elders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, [arguing] from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavor to bring in another Father, setting over against [these punishments] what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him,
. . .
so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,” these shall be damned for ever;

Book 4 Chap 39
Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.
​

None of that says that the wicked continue to exist forever in torment in Hell. But you missed the key paragraph (purposely???).

Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 2, Chapter 34, paragraph 3
3. For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance. The prophetic Spirit bears testimony to these opinions, when He declares, "For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created: He hath established them for ever, yea, forever and ever."(6) And again, He thus speaks respecting the salvation of man: "He asked life of Thee, and Thou gavest him length of days for ever and ever;"(7) indicating that it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever.(1) And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: "If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?"(2) indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.

 

[Tigger45]

Not really.
1. It shows that "not all" early Christians believed in eternal torment.
2. My argument was always that the Bible supports the fact that the wages of sin is death, and doesn't support eternal conscious torment.
3. I only mentioned one ECF (Early Church Father), there are others who didn't believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment).
4. We are only talking about ECFs at all because someone else brought them up, not me. I don't believe that ECF writing is canonical.
5. May of the ECFs who are claimed to be in favor of ECF are using the same Biblical language in their writing that ECT supporters today claim supprt ECT. (For example, a ECF may use the phrase "eternal fire" so an ECTist may claim them for their side, even though "eternal fire" supports our side too.)

Look, if you don't want to believe that the penalty for sin is death instead of Eternal Conscious Torment, don't look into this. Just turn your head and walk away. I'm merely saying what the Bible says. The wages of sin is death. I haven't added to that or taken anything away from that. I've shown from other scriptures that the wages of sin really is death.

1. You found one ECF who in one statement seems to support a non-enternal punishment. (None) of the ECF who were directly discipled an Apostles wrote such a thing.
2. I already know you believe the bible doesn't support eternal conscious torment. By the way unconscious torment wouldn't be torment would it. I mean what's the point? What I believe the bible teaches is the concept of death always means a separation. Be it body from soul. Mankind from God. Or like in the death of a relationship like divorce.
3. Already covered in my #1 response.
4. I don't believe the ECF writings are canonical either but to read how first century believers believed after being discipled by Apostles hold a lot of credit to me. Opposed to all the different beliefs that have cropped up since. If I am on the fence concerning a biblical teaching I think it's a very logical decision to understand how the ECFs understood it.
5. The majority of ECFs make it clear that "eternal fire" equates too eternal punishment. That was covered in item #1.

I do want and have looked into this. That's why I'm here dialoging with you. We just disagree. I already told you I wish you were right. If you were right I would be glad. I don't like to think anyone is going to suffer eternal punishment. And to reiterate when the bible uses the term death it's always talking about a separation.

 

[Timothew]

And to reiterate when the bible uses the term death it's always talking about a separation.

I have often heard this claim made. Why do you believe that when the Bible uses the term death that it is always talking about a separation? The Bible never says "Death really means a separation". I am serious, I want you to tell me why you think death doesn't really mean death, but rather a separation.

If you are correct, then death means "eternal life in hell", and we have the unfortunate case of a word having the meaning of it's opposite.
(Do you think this is a case of flammable and inflammable meaning the same thing? )

Step me through your thinking, making death mean separation.

 

[Evergreen48]

1. You found one ECF who in one statement seems to support a non-enternal punishment. (None) of the ECF who were directly discipled an Apostles wrote such a thing.
2. I already know you believe the bible doesn't support eternal conscious torment. By the way unconscious torment wouldn't be torment would it. I mean what's the point? What I believe the bible teaches is the concept of death always means a separation. Be it body from soul. Mankind from God. Or like in the death of a relationship like divorce.
3. Already covered in my #1 response.
4. I don't believe the ECF writings are canonical either but to read how first century believers believed after being discipled by Apostles hold a lot of credit to me. Opposed to all the different beliefs that have cropped up since. If I am on the fence concerning a biblical teaching I think it's a very logical decision to understand how the ECFs understood it.
5. The majority of ECFs make it clear that "eternal fire" equates too eternal punishment. That was covered in item #1.

I, for one, can surely get along without any thing from the "early church fathers". From what I have read of their works, I think they must have been a part of that "falling away" as spoken of by the apostle Paul in 2 Thess. 2:1-12.

I do want and have looked into this. That's why I'm here dialoging with you. We just disagree. I already told you I wish you were right. If you were right I would be glad. I don't like to think anyone is going to suffer eternal punishment. And to reiterate when the bible uses the term death it's always talking about a separation.

you need to ask yourself where this sentiment that lies in your heart came from. If it comes from God, then you may be sure that he does not show you one thing and then he, himself, do the other. He is not a "do as I say, not as I do", God.

 

[Timothew]

1. You found one ECF who in one statement seems to support a non-enternal punishment. (None) of the ECF who were directly discipled an Apostles wrote such a thing.

I disagree, but I really don't care what they believed. If they agreed with the writings of the Apostles (the NT) then I agree with them. If they didn't, who cares what they believed?

2. I already know you believe the bible doesn't support eternal conscious torment. By the way unconscious torment wouldn't be torment would it. I mean what's the point? What I believe the bible teaches is the concept of death always means a separation. Be it body from soul. Mankind from God. Or like in the death of a relationship like divorce.

Death does not mean separation. Death means "not alive".

3. Already covered in my #1 response.

It doesn't matter, because it doesn't matter what the ECFs believed. We are not required to hold the same views. Some believed in ECT some did not. Just like today.

4. I don't believe the ECF writings are canonical either but to read how first century believers believed after being discipled by Apostles hold a lot of credit to me. Opposed to all the different beliefs that have cropped up since. If I am on the fence concerning a biblical teaching I think it's a very logical decision to understand how the ECFs understood it.

I disagree, we should try to find out what the scriptures say, not the ECFs whether they agree with you or with me.

5. The majority of ECFs make it clear that "eternal fire" equates too eternal punishment. That was covered in item #1.

I disagree. For the reasons I said earlier. People read INTO the ECFs just like they read into the Scriptures.

I do want and have looked into this. That's why I'm here dialoging with you. We just disagree. I already told you I wish you were right. If you were right I would be glad. I don't like to think anyone is going to suffer eternal punishment. And to reiterate when the bible uses the term death it's always talking about a separation.

No, when the Bible uses the term death it is not talking about a separation.
Matthew 15:4, as one example:
For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' Are they to be separated? Is this speaking of a mere separation? "Go to your room for a time out, young man, I need to be separated from you"? No, the term death when used in the Bible definitely does NOT mean "a separation".

 

[JohnRabbit]

interesting.

on the one hand, God says:

Genesis 3:3(NKJV)
3but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

God says you die.



and on the other, satan says:

Genesis 3:4(NKJV)
4Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

satan says you will not die!



who you gonna believe?

seems like a no brainer to me, (rom 6:23).

1 Corinthians 15:16-18(NKJV)
16For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (jn 3:16, 1thess 4:16)

 

[Timothew]

interesting.

on the one hand, God says:

Genesis 3:3(NKJV)
3but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

God says you die.



and on the other, satan says:

Genesis 3:4(NKJV)
4Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

satan says you will not die!



who you gonna believe?

seems like a no brainer to me, (rom 6:23).

1 Corinthians 15:16-18(NKJV)
16For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (jn 3:16, 1thess 4:16)

The serpent is the devil or Satan:
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

He would still like to deceive people. He is still saying "Surely you will not die, death when it is used in the Bible means a separation, not really death. So you can sin all you want, you will still live forever in hell. I'm a nice guy, not like God who doesn't let you do what you want. He wants you to be tortured forever, God is a bad." Satan lies, he was a liar from the beginning. John 8:44, his lies are deadly because he entices to sin, which is death.

 

[JohnRabbit]

The serpent is the devil or Satan:
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

He would still like to deceive people. He is still saying "Surely you will not die, death when it is used in the Bible means a separation, not really death. So you can sin all you want, you will still live forever in hell. I'm a nice guy, not like God who doesn't let you do what you want. He wants you to be tortured forever, God is a bad." Satan lies, he was a liar from the beginning. John 8:44, his lies are deadly because he entices to sin, which is death.

looks like romans to me:

Romans 1:25(NKJV)
25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Ronald]

The Rich man was in Hades (Sheol), not hell, a common misunderstanding.
Hell is the Lake of Fire. Of course the following goes against the traditional doctrine of "eternal hell" but here's my two cents.

Anioios is the word translated into eternal or everlasting. It has variable meanings since it is mostly used to describe things that are temporal, things that will pass away. In that sense it means: an age, ages, a generation, a lifetime, or even the world. When it refers to God, heaven or our salvation, it means either with no beginning and no ending or forward in time infinitely.
"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." Rev. 20:10 YLT
Youngs literal translation allows for these variations. Everlasting would correctly mean age-lasting or age-during.
Destroy and perish mean exactly what we know them to mean, to put an end to, exterminate, etc. Destruction may contain a period of time but it will come to an end. It does not have an extended infinite meaning, like an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing -- that's contradictory. The second death is a death of both body and soul in the Lake of Fire "'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." Matt.10:28 YLT Gehenna is a more real physical, on earth, reference to Hell (Lake of Fire). Jesus used this term condemning the Pharisees.
The former things will pass away, all things created. Hades will be thrown into the Lake and Satan and his demons along with all who have not been washed by the blood of Christ.

Also notice in Rev.14:11, it says day and night. In the New Jerusalem which is heaven AND AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, there will be no more night, sun or moon or stars, since God will illuminate everything. So you see, that verse refers to the time during the Millennial kingdom, and before the first earth is destroyed in a fervent heat along with the elements (including the Lake of Fire)

 

[JohnRabbit]

The Rich man was in Hades (Sheol), not hell, a common misunderstanding.
Hell is the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:14(KJV)
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


how is hell the "lake of fire", when hell is thrown into "the lake of fire"?

 

[C.O.Ioves]

The Rich man was in Hades (Sheol), not hell, a common misunderstanding.
Hell is the Lake of Fire. Of course the following goes against the traditional doctrine of "eternal hell" but here's my two cents.

Anioios is the word translated into eternal or everlasting. It has variable meanings since it is mostly used to describe things that are temporal, things that will pass away. In that sense it means: an age, ages, a generation, a lifetime, or even the world. When it refers to God, heaven or our salvation, it means either with no beginning and no ending or forward in time infinitely.
"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." Rev. 20:10 YLT
Youngs literal translation allows for these variations. Everlasting would correctly mean age-lasting or age-during.
Destroy and perish mean exactly what we know them to mean, to put an end to, exterminate, etc. Destruction may contain a period of time but it will come to an end. It does not have an extended infinite meaning, like an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing -- that's contradictory. The second death is a death of both body and soul in the Lake of Fire "'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." Matt.10:28 YLT Gehenna is a more real physical, on earth, reference to Hell (Lake of Fire). Jesus used this term condemning the Pharisees.
The former things will pass away, all things created. Hades will be thrown into the Lake and Satan and his demons along with all who have not been washed by the blood of Christ.

Also notice in Rev.14:11, it says day and night. In the New Jerusalem which is heaven AND AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, there will be no more night, sun or moon or stars, since God will illuminate everything. So you see, that verse refers to the time during the Millennial kingdom, and before the first earth is destroyed in a fervent heat along with the elements (including the Lake of Fire)

The New Jerusalem is not heaven. And there is no day and night only in new Jerusalem. This does not mean that there is no day and night outside of new Jerusalem.

The Jews referred to the place of eternal punishment as both Sheol and Gehenna.

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, there are those who believed that there is eternal conscious torment. I'm saying that the Bible does not support that. The early church was mixed in opinion, just as we are today.

Charles Pridgeon, president and founder of the Pittsburgh Bible Institute, wrote: ―In these early centuries those holding the doctrine of endless punishment were in the minority and no one was counted unorthodox who believed in restitution and the ultimate and complete victory of Christ. In fact, the leaders in the early Church Councils and those who were chosen to establish orthodoxy were well
known believers in the beneficent side of future punishment. This is especially true of the second great Church Council which was held to perfect the Nicene Creed....There is no word in these early statements of creed in favor of endless punishment.

In Encheirid. ad Laurent, c. 29 Augustine wrote: ―"There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless tor-ments."

Hope beyond hell is an ancient theology firmly rooted in the Early Church.

Like I keep saying, if eternal hell is the price for sin...as orthodoxy teaches...then JESUS NEVER PAID THE PRICE! And I suppose my dear brother Timothy, that would have to include annihilation then too wouldn't it?