The injustice of election

[Anideas]

Hello everyone,

since I am new here I'm opening a new thead, albeit another one on election. My focus is a different one, since I'm a skeptic. I don't intend to post here regularly, I rather consider myself as a guest, a passer-by. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I should ever come to the conclusion that Christianity is true. Could I accept it? I believe that Calvinism represents the teachings of the bible rather accurately, so I thought I'd just come here and pose the question I have always been curious about:
Why is predestination not unjust?

I think that predestination is unjust, not because I believe that according to Calvinism people who want to be saved aren't, but because it's not up to us whether we want to be saved in the first place. God's sovereignty means that nobody merits either blame or credit. I don't think it means that we all deserve hell and can be grateful that God graciously saves at least some of us.

My view is that if your faith is accurate then nobody deserves hell because nobody is ultimately responsible for his or her own depravity.

Thanks for your comments!

 

[twin1954]

Hello everyone,

since I am new here I'm opening a new thead, albeit another one on election. My focus is a different one, since I'm a skeptic. I don't intend to post here regularly, I rather consider myself as a guest, a passer-by. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I should ever come to the conclusion that Christianity is true. Could I accept it? I believe that Calvinism represents the teachings of the bible rather accurately, so I thought I'd just come here and pose the question I have always been curious about:
Why is predestination not unjust?

I think that predestination is unjust, not because I believe that according to Calvinism people who want to be saved aren't, but because it's not up to us whether we want to be saved in the first place. God's sovereignty means that nobody merits either blame or credit. I don't think it means that we all deserve hell and can be grateful that God graciously saves at least some of us.

My view is that if your faith is accurate then nobody deserves hell because nobody is ultimately responsible for his or her own depravity.

Thanks for your comments!

The first thing that comes to mind is Who are you to sit in judgment against God? What gives you the right to be God's judge?

The Apostle Paul anticipated just such a question from unbelieving rebels in Rom. 9:19;
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Rom 9:19-24)

If you ever find out who God is His justice will not be in question. You will not want justice from Him but mercy. You have sinned against the Almighty and you will give an answer for it. "I was not responsible because you made me this way" will not be an excuse.

I suggest that you find out who God is and who you are. May God give you grace to see Him and His mercy in Christ.

 

[Anideas]

Thank you very much indeed for the quick reply, Twin. It reaffirms the suspicions I was having that there is no solution to this problem, other than the one given by Paul, which is no solution. Consider this: What would you think of a human acting like the God portrayed by Paul there? Wouldn't you be horrified? I sure hope you would.

Kind regards anyway.

 

[twin1954]

Thank you very much indeed for the quick reply, Twin. It reaffirms the suspicions I was having that there is no solution to this problem, other than the one given by Paul, which is no solution. Consider this: What would you think of a human acting like the God portrayed by Paul there? Wouldn't you be horrified? I sure hope you would.

Kind regards anyway.

Sure there is a solution. You need to bow to God. God is not evil like men are so the comparison doesn't even come close. If you want a god that is like men then you need to go to an Arminian.

 

[Anideas]

Let me just say one last thing, please: To me this is not about constructing my own religion. I'm after truth. I'm not trying to have people give me the God I want, but I want to determine the likability of the God of the "real" Christianity -- which has to be gleaned from a proper understanding of the bible, which I believe Calvinists have, not Arminians.

That doesn't mean I have to come to the conclusion that the Calvinist God is worth bowing to. I can still reject that God after deciding that he represents the true face of biblical Christianity.

I won't say, oh, I don't like the God of the bible so let's find some imaginative people who can give me another God. But even if the God Calvinists believe in is biblical, the bible itself could still turn out to be false. I'm just giving priority to the likability factor right now.

Cheers.

 

[twin1954]

Let me just say one last thing, please: To me this is not about constructing my own religion. I'm after truth. I'm not trying to have people give me the God I want, but I want to determine the likability of the God of the "real" Christianity -- which has to be gleaned from a proper understanding of the bible, which I believe Calvinists have, not Arminians.

That doesn't mean I have to come to the conclusion that the Calvinist God is worth bowing to. I can still reject that God after deciding that he represents the true face of biblical Christianity.

I won't say, oh, I don't like the God of the bible so let's find some imaginative people who can give me another God. But even if the God Calvinists believe in is biblical, the bible itself could still turn out to be false. I'm just giving priority to the likability factor right now.

Cheers.

You will bow to Him. Either in this lifetime where He has given you grace or in the world to come when you will suffer His judgment. God never asks you to like Him He demands that you worship Him. If He gives you grace you will not only bow to Him but love Him and worship Him. If He doesn't give you grace whether you like Him or not really doesn't matter.

 

[Anideas]

I just have to say this: It is strange that I, being an ardent supporter of the notion that that there can be no such thing as free will (for my own philosophical reasons), find myself struggling for breath in a Calvinist forum.

I found a Youtube video that all Calvinists here might find interesting. I'm not allowed to post the link, but you can search for it and will find it easily:

Jerry Walls: What's wrong with Calvinism


Now I'm really out of here.

All the best.

 

[Skala]

Hello everyone,

since I am new here I'm opening a new thead, albeit another one on election. My focus is a different one, since I'm a skeptic. I don't intend to post here regularly, I rather consider myself as a guest, a passer-by. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I should ever come to the conclusion that Christianity is true. Could I accept it? I believe that Calvinism represents the teachings of the bible rather accurately, so I thought I'd just come here and pose the question I have always been curious about:
Why is predestination not unjust?

I think that predestination is unjust, not because I believe that according to Calvinism people who want to be saved aren't, but because it's not up to us whether we want to be saved in the first place. God's sovereignty means that nobody merits either blame or credit. I don't think it means that we all deserve hell and can be grateful that God graciously saves at least some of us.

My view is that if your faith is accurate then nobody deserves hell because nobody is ultimately responsible for his or her own depravity.

Thanks for your comments!

According to Calvinism, the reason people are not saved is because they don't want to be saved. It's not as if people are wanting to be saved, but can't be. It's that because they love their sin so much they don't want to be saved in the first place. They are hostile to the gospel, hostile to Christ, and unwilling to be obedient, perfectly content and willing to disobey God's command and content to remain in rebellion.

God could be just in letting all men continue in this state and perish into the hell they deserve. But he steps in and intervenes and saves billions and billions of people who would have gone to hell otherwise. That's why salvation is grace. It's something God didn't have to do and was not obligated to do. He did it out love and mercy.

Also, all men deserve hell because all men willingly sin and enjoy sin, ie, they willingly break laws and commit crimes. A person who willingly breaks a law deserves punishment, even in earthly/secular terms.

 

[Anideas]

Dear Skala, discussing on the internet is too much fun, so let me answer you:

I know what you mean. I do reject God, a) because if he exists he hides too well for my taste and b) because he punishes people unjustly:

In principle you could be right that there is a God who saves all who want to be saved (which cannot possibly come for free insomuch as you might have to give up certain things) and tortures the rest for all eternity.

Why is it unjust: Because the people who don't want to be saved cannot help not wanting to be saved, that's my whole point.

What about criminals: They do need to be punished in order to protect society as well as for deterrence. They do not deserve to be punished -- not at all, in no way. I know it's hard to swallow, but go to Youtube and watch a speech by Sam Harris on free will. He explains it very well. Or if you don't like Harris because he's a militant atheist, read the philosopher Galen Strawson on free will. Just google it.

No free will can only mean that ultimately, there is no such thing as deserving anything, especially not everlasting punishment.

 

[InspiredHome]

He does not hide. You simply are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. There is no free will. One is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Of course mankind deserves hell for sinning against an infinately holy God. God is just in everything He does. He owes us nothing .

 

[Anoetos]

God doesn't care whether you like Him or not. He is a purifying fire to the elect and a righteous judge to the reprobate.

He's not a gift machine. He's not anxiously awaiting your, or anyone's approval of Him.

 

[Anideas]

Think about what you're all claiming there. You're claiming that it is just to punish robots for behaving exactly in accordance with the will of their Programmer. That makes no sense at all.

Of course God isn't waiting for anyone's approval. Why would he? He knows how he's programmed everyone. He also knows what he's going to do to those he has programmed to "disobey" him, or to not be saved.

How can you look your "unsaved" friends in the eyes without total horror at the thought of their supposedly well-deserved fate?

Of course we have no free will. Even if Calvinism is false we don't. It is important that we understand that truth about ourselves. It means that we are all completely innocent. I'm just being reasonable.

Our complete innocence would be so obvious as to not be worth mentioning if we weren't all so deluded by concepts of blame and guilt. Since we ARE in fact deluded in such a way, the good news of our innocence puzzles and astonishes us.That is also the reason that I myself am somewhat obsessed with the idea that we have no free will.

It is also the reason I don't accept the picture of a vengeful God. I find it absolutely fascinating how Calvinists are getting the no free will bit right and then are able to believe in deserved punishment of the worst sort imaginable.

Should we turn to Arminianism then? I looked into the matter years ago and back then came to the conclusion that the bible does seem to support Calvinism. Either the bible is false or god's character is highly questionable. I think this is the reason that there are so many Arminians. They want to keep Christianity but not its God. An understandable reaction, but they pay a high price for it by adopting the incoherent concept of free will...

It is really an engaging topic. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[twin1954]

Think about what you're all claiming there. You're claiming that it is just to punish robots for behaving exactly in accordance with the will of their Programmer. That makes no sense at all.

Of course God isn't waiting for anyone's approval. Why would he? He knows how he's programmed everyone. He also knows what he's going to do to those he has programmed to "disobey" him, or to not be saved.

How can you look your "unsaved" friends in the eyes without total horror at the thought of their supposedly well-deserved fate?

Of course we have no free will. Even if Calvinism is false we don't. It is important that we understand that truth about ourselves. It means that we are all completely innocent. I'm just being reasonable.

Our complete innocence would be so obvious as to not be worth mentioning if we weren't all so deluded by concepts of blame and guilt. Since we ARE in fact deluded in such a way, the good news of our innocence puzzles and astonishes us.That is also the reason that I myself am somewhat obsessed with the idea that we have no free will.

It is also the reason I don't accept the picture of a vengeful God. I find it absolutely fascinating how Calvinists are getting the no free will bit right and then are able to believe in deserved punishment of the worst sort imaginable.

Should we turn to Arminianism then? I looked into the matter years ago and back then came to the conclusion that the bible does seem to support Calvinism. Either the bible is false or god's character is highly questionable. I think this is the reason that there are so many Arminians. They want to keep Christianity but not its God. An understandable reaction, but they pay a high price for it by adopting the incoherent concept of free will...

It is really an engaging topic. I think we can all agree on that.

First: This is the place to ask a Calvinist questions. It is not a debate room. There is a room called "Debate a Calvinist" you can find here http://www.christianforums.com/f789/.

Second: No this is not an engaging topic. The old robot argument is overused and tired. We are not robots. Robots have no will of their own. We have a will but that will is under the bondage and slavery of a sinful nature. You sin and rebel against God because you want to not because God makes you to do so.

Yes God is in absolute control of all things and everything is purposed to bring glory to His name and do good to His elect. He controls every circumstance, every influence and every situation that shapes your decisions. Yet you do exactly as you want.

God's sovereignty in no way relieves man of responsibility. We are responsible to Him because He is our Creator. Ability or inability has no bearing on responsibility. You will answer to God for your sin. Either by faith in Christ or at the Judgment. My advice to you is to seek mercy in Christ by faith.

Now I will not debate you here. If you want to debate these things go to the proper place.

 

[A New Dawn]

Let me just say one last thing, please: To me this is not about constructing my own religion. I'm after truth. I'm not trying to have people give me the God I want, but I want to determine the likability of the God of the "real" Christianity -- which has to be gleaned from a proper understanding of the bible, which I believe Calvinists have, not Arminians.

That doesn't mean I have to come to the conclusion that the Calvinist God is worth bowing to. I can still reject that God after deciding that he represents the true face of biblical Christianity.

I won't say, oh, I don't like the God of the bible so let's find some imaginative people who can give me another God. But even if the God Calvinists believe in is biblical, the bible itself could still turn out to be false. I'm just giving priority to the likability factor right now.

Cheers.

Anideas, it is normal for unregenerated men to hate the things of God. Their own sin-nature repels the truth. It can't be helped, and that is why you feel the way you do. But to those who have been regenerated and know the love of God first-hand, it is impossible to think that God could be considered unjust. God is just because God is the source of all things from creation to salvation.

You won't be able to make a decision either way. If you are chosen for salvation, God will change your heart and make it his. Your will will agree with His will, and His desires will be your desires. You will be a changed person. And you will have no thought of rejecting Him. That's just the way it is when you are chosen by God.

 

[Anideas]

Twin, I'm afraid that in such discussions, really new arguments are rarely made.

The thread began as a genuine question on my part. It has turned into a debate of sorts because none of the contributors to this thread has been able to give me any real answer. This has given me greater confidence that there simply is no answer to my question.

If my points are so tired and hashed out, it should be easy for you to refute them. But it isn't, as I see it. I fully understand how it is possible for God to be sovereign while we can do what we want. My point has been the whole time that even if this be so, we cannot want what we want and thus cannot ultimately be responsible for anything. Maybe I will visit the debate forum sooner or later, but as long as the admins are ok with it, I see no reason not to continue the thread here. If you don't want to contribute, then don't.

 

[twin1954]

Twin, I'm afraid that in such discussions, really new arguments are rarely made.

The thread began as a genuine question on my part. It has turned into a debate of sorts because none of the contributors to this thread has been able to give me any real answer. This has given me greater confidence that there simply is no answer to my question.

If my points are so tired and hashed out, it should be easy for you to refute them. But it isn't, as I see it.

"As you see it" is the whole problem. You refuse to consider that you have been given a true and reasonable answer but it doesn't fit your presupposition so it can't be right. It is tired and hashed out because I have spent many years going over the same old ground to folks like you who want to deny that God is God. It may not be an old argument to you but it is a very old and tired argument from our point of view. You have made no reasonable argument for your premise you simply assume you must be correct. Your original question was answered and now so has your response.

I fully understand how it is possible for God to be sovereign while we can do what we want. My point has been the whole time that even if this be so, we cannot want what we want and thus cannot ultimately be responsible for anything.

You just contradicted your own statement. You are looking for an excuse to blame God for your failure. You are doing it by creating a false dilemma. Your view is neither logical or reasonable.

Maybe I will visit the debate forum sooner or later, but as long as the admins are ok with it, I see no reason not to continue the thread here. If you don't want to contribute, then don't.

I have asked you to take it to the debate forum and will ask the mods to move it if you don't. I am done.

 

[Anideas]

You have made no reasonable argument for your premise...

Excuse me? Sure I made reasonable arguments. They are there for all to see.

...you simply assume you must be correct.

You did get that backwards. That's how I see it, and I stand by that.

We won't find much common ground, so I think I'll give up.

No hard feelings, and thanks for the conversation, anyway.

 

[drjean]

I answer just to try and help you obtain a new perspective without an old argument?

Consider that none of us know the whole situation for each living creature here on earth. We don't know but God does. Perhaps the election is for human beings only and even though we see people as human beings, maybe there is a subclass, a mutant non human that appears as human... wouldn't the element of election FOR fully human beings only be acceptable? Only those who are not fully human would know who they are--if you are not one of "them" then you have the option of accepting God's love and eternal life. What's not to like about that? The very fact that you seek means, to me, that the Holy Spirit wishes for you to find, for surely you have been elected. Now it's up to you to accept, or not. Be well.

 

[AMR]

I just have to say this: It is strange that I, being an ardent supporter of the notion that that there can be no such thing as free will (for my own philosophical reasons), find myself struggling for breath in a Calvinist forum.

We have free will, just not libertarian free will, but instead the liberty of spontaneity, the ability to choose that which we are most inclined to choose at the time we so choose.

I think some folks fail to see the error in their presuppositions. On the one hand, we have no problem believing that our Almighty God can speak the universe into existence, ex nihilo. After all, He is most powerful and should be able to pull this off, no?

Yet, when it comes to our fallen natures and the accompanying desire for complete autonomy, we struggle to accept that this same Almighty God is capable of holding us accountable for our moral choices even while sovereignly bringing about those choices in the manner (freely, contingently, necessarily) He has decreed. The fact of the matter is that it is the decree of God that actually establishes, versus overthrows, our liberty of spontaneity, the ability to choose as we are most inclined to choose when we so choose.

I think the real issue underlying the topic is that we want to know "how" God pulls this off. If folks will stop a minute and think about it, I doubt that they would conclude that God is not capable of pulling it off, but they cavil at the fact that God has not explained "how" He does so, so complaining contra Deut. 29:29. Hence we end up with all the usual "robot" canards raised by the libertarian free willers who fail to consider the contradiction in their reasoning as illustrated above.

 

[Anoetos]

I wonder why it is so difficult for some to accept this doctrine when nearly every other thing in their life of lasting importance is theirs without their choosing it: their physical life, the country they were born in, their family, their very genetic make up...the list goes on