Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

[ChristianLife08]

... For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)

Exactly how does that passage teach penal substitutionary atonement?

I do not see it.

Jesus' death is described as a sacrifice for atonement but not as receiving divine punishment for sins nor as receiving God's wrath.

Since Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for humanity there seems to be no support for PSA in the passage.

Rom. 3:25; 4:25; 5:16-20

 

[brinny]

... For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)

Exactly how does that passage teach penal substitutionary atonement?

I do not see it.

Jesus' death is described as a sacrifice for atonement but not as receiving divine punishment for sins nor as receiving God's wrath.

Since Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for humanity there seems to be no support for PSA in the passage.

Jesus was sent to be the lamb of God, to be sacrificed for our sins. Our sins were put on the sinless Jesus. He paid the price once and for all for our sins. God DID turn His face from Him. Jesus cried out asking why God had forsaken Him.

It happened. It is written. It's written in His Word. God's wrath was on Jesus. Jesus absorbed it so that we wouldn't. Seriously. God wouldn't lie.




God You reign.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)

Exactly how does that passage teach penal substitutionary atonement?

I do not see it.

Jesus' death is described as a sacrifice for atonement but not as receiving divine punishment for sins nor as receiving God's wrath.

Since Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for humanity there seems to be no support for PSA in the passage.

Rom. 3:25; 4:25; 5:16-20

"non responsive"

 

[Clare73]

Romans 3:25 (previously cited in the thread) says that God makes Christ the "mercy seat/ilastirion/propiatiation" so that by faith in His blood God's anger is held back.

That bears a little looking into.

Since ~300 years before Christ, the Jewish translators of the OT into the Greek Septuagint (LXX) have presented a propitiatory sacrifice in the hilasterion epithema.

In the Greek OT Septuagint (LXX), Mercy Seat is hilasterion epithema.
It refers to the lid or cover of the Ark of the Covenant, called kapporeth in the Hebrew, meaning the covering of or the removal of sin (Ps 32:1) by means of expiatory (animal) sacrifice, and was translated epithema in the Greek.
The Jewish translators of the Greek OT LXX added hilasterion, which is an adjective signifying the propiatory.
Eventually, hilasterion stood for both hilasterion and epithema.

So the OT Hebrew kapporeth = Greek OT hilasterion epithema since ~300 years before the birth of Christ,
which = English NT expiatory propitiation.
"Expiatory propitiation" has been the NT meaning of "atonement" since the Greek NT was written, which was ~300 years after the Greek OT (LXX) was translated.

The Mercy Seat, along with the Ark, is referred to as the footstool of God (1Chr 28:2; Ps 99:5, 132:7).
God promised to be present upon it and to commune with Moses "from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim" (Ex 25:22; Lev 1:1).

So, would you like to answer the questions presented on Ro 3:25-26 consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture?

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) (4,5) through faith in his blood (6).

He did this to demonstrate his justice (3), because in his forbearance he had passed over (1,2)

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice (3)

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies (7)." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

7) How is God both just and the one who justifies?

 

[MoreCoffee]

... For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)

Exactly how does that passage teach penal substitutionary atonement?

I do not see it.

Jesus' death is described as a sacrifice for atonement but not as receiving divine punishment for sins nor as receiving God's wrath.

Since Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for humanity there seems to be no support for PSA in the passage.

Jesus was sent to be the lamb of God, to be sacrificed for our sins. Our sins were put on the sinless Jesus. He paid the price once and for all for our sins. God DID turn His face from Him. Jesus cried out asking why God had forsaken Him.

It happened. It is written. It's written in His Word. God's wrath was on Jesus. Jesus absorbed it so that we wouldn't. Seriously. God wouldn't lie.




God You reign.

The passage quoted in red above does not say what you've said.

It isn't in God's word.

 

[brinny]

The passage quoted in red above does not say what you've said.

It isn't in God's word.

What i posted is in God's Word. It's in His Word repeatedly. Seriously. Honest. It's all there. You haven't seen it?





God You reign.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What i posted is in God's Word. It's in His Word repeatedly. Seriously. Honest. It's all there. You haven't seen it?

Show us the passages.

Show a passage that says "Jesus was sent to be the lamb of God, to be sacrificed for our sins."

And a passage that says "Our sins were put on the sinless Jesus."

And a passage that says "He paid the price once and for all for our sins."

And a passage that says "God DID turn His face from Him."

 

[Clare73]

For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)

Exactly how does that passage teach penal substitutionary atonement?

Provide answers to the questions below on Ro 3:25-26 which are consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture,
then we'll go from there.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) (4,5) through faith in his blood (6).

He did this to demonstrate his justice (3), because in his forbearance he had passed over (1,2)

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice (3)

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies (7)." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

7) How is God both just and the one who justifies?

 

[MoreCoffee]

... For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)

Exactly how does that passage teach penal substitutionary atonement?

I do not see it.

Jesus' death is described as a sacrifice for atonement but not as receiving divine punishment for sins nor as receiving God's wrath.

Since Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for humanity there seems to be no support for PSA in the passage.

Provide answers to the questions below on Ro 3:25-26 which are consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture, then we'll go from there.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over (left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

The words that you put in brackets are insertions not present in the text of sacred scripture. If you intend them to be alternative translation you need not bother. If you prefer "propitiation" from the ESV to "sacrifice of atonement" from the NRSV that's okay.

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

This is not easy to decipher - what do you intend it to mean?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

"the sins previously committed" is what the passage says. Was your question rhetorical?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

It demonstrated that God is righteous. This is also rhetorical is it not?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

Atonement is not 'for something' it is 'to heal a breach'. You do understand that, don't you? The passage is about Jesus expiatory death as atonement to heal the broken relationship between humankind and God.

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

It doesn't make reparation. Jesus' sacrificial death is an offering of love and praise offered to God to wipe away sins and the offence that sins give to God.

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

The atonement is made effective through faith. Each of the faithful who is united to Christ in baptism and faith within the body (which is the church) is promised cleansing from sins and eternal life in union with Jesus Christ.

7) How is God both just and the one who justifies?

Another rhetorical question? God is righteous by nature and by definition.

 

[brinny]

O

riginally Posted by brinny
What i posted is in God's Word. It's in His Word repeatedly. Seriously. Honest. It's all there. You haven't seen it?

Show us the passages.

Show a passage that says "Jesus was sent to be the lamb of God, to be sacrificed for our sins."

And a passage that says "Our sins were put on the sinless Jesus."

And a passage that says "He paid the price once and for all for our sins."

And a passage that says "God DID turn His face from Him."

Since you haven't seen the verses in your many readings of the entire Bible, fear not...if you use a search engine it will show you where the verses are. It would be edifying for you. Happy searching.

God You reign.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Show us the passages.

Show a passage that says "Jesus was sent to be the lamb of God, to be sacrificed for our sins."

And a passage that says "Our sins were put on the sinless Jesus."

And a passage that says "He paid the price once and for all for our sins."

And a passage that says "God DID turn His face from Him."

Since you haven't seen the verses in your many readings of the entire Bible, fear not...if you use a search engine it will show you where the verses are. It would be edifying for you. Happy searching.

...

Non responsive bluster.

 

[brinny]

Non responsive bluster.

good dodge! Wooooo Hoooooo!!!! you gooooo boy

God You reign.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Show us the passages.

Show a passage that says "Jesus was sent to be the lamb of God, to be sacrificed for our sins."

And a passage that says "Our sins were put on the sinless Jesus."

And a passage that says "He paid the price once and for all for our sins."

And a passage that says "God DID turn His face from Him."

Since you haven't seen the verses in your many readings of the entire Bible, fear not...if you use a search engine it will show you where the verses are. It would be edifying for you. Happy searching.

...

Non responsive bluster.

good dodge! Wooooo Hoooooo!!!! you gooooo boy

Silly avoidance. Non-responsive reply.

 

[mmksparbud]

Well, this is all very interesting. Sometimes, I can even understand what is being said--I'm old and a little foggy at times!--
Why did God set up the Sacrificial system, the tabernacle in the dessert and the Temple in Jerusalem?? The whole thing was about the covenant God made with man--we obey Him out of love, when we sin, He provides a way to deal with sin. He provided that the blood of these animals be what washes away the sins. The whole sanctuary service was a learning experience about the coming Messiah. The people brought the sin offerings, the priests sprinkled the blood on the viei, the High Priest went into the Most Holy place once a year for the Day of Atonement. Please, just look it up in Lev 16--it's just too long to type out. But it was the blood of the animals that cleansed from sin. On the day of Atonement, the High Priest had to offer a sin offering, a bullock, for his own sins and with incense and the blood, sprinkle the blood upon the mercy seat--the seat of God. He was to take 2 goats, one was slain and the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat for the sins of the people, the other goat, the scapegoat, the High priest was to put his hands on the head of that goat and confess all the sins of the children of Israel and then he was to have the goat lead out into the wilderness and let it go.
This all represented the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb sacrificed daily for the sins of the people, and the one goat slain and its blood sprinkled on the mercy seat once a year. It was the blood that cleansed.
Christ became that sacrificial animal, it's His blood that cleanses us from sin. Christ was not killed by anyone on the cross, He gave His life up for our sins. John 10:17,18--"Therefore doth my Father love me, Because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of My Father." Jesus was already dead when the spear pierced His side.
Christ paid the price for sin, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."--
He paid the price--death. But, as with the goats--the one scapegoat had all the sins laid on his head, and it was led out into the wilderness---Jesus paid the price, Satan will bear the blame, and be led into the wilderness for a thousand years. Rev 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil,, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."

Christ is the new covenant, His blood is what cleans. Heb 9:26 "....but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Heb 10:1--"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never, with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."--8,9--"Above, when he siad, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldst not, neither had pleasure there: which are offered by the law:Then said He, Lo I come to do they will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second." Heb 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever, them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that He had said before. And this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and into their minds will I write them, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now, where remmission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethern, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus. By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh."

The thing is, there is no everlasting burning hell--Christ never went to hell, He died that we may live---Rev 20:5,6 "And the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Heb 9:27--"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but then after this the judgement."
The saved die but once--the lost, die twice, once on earth as is natural for all, and then the 2nd death, in the lake of fire--death--not everlasting life in hell, but death.

1Tim 6:15,16 "Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords, Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man hath seen, nor can see:to whom be honour and power everlasting, Amen."

I will now retire so that the stone throwing may commence.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, this is all very interesting. Sometimes, I can even understand what is being said--I'm old and a little foggy at times!--

Why did God set up the Sacrificial system, the tabernacle in the dessert and the Temple in Jerusalem??

The sacrificial system was set up as a type and as a shadowy depiction of the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Jesus died, his blood was split, to remove sins from his people; to appeal to God's love and mercy; to show God's love and mercy; and to experience death, conquer it, and elevate humanity to heaven in his own person. Other things were accomplished by Jesus incarnation and his active and passive obedience to God's will.

The whole thing was about the covenant God made with man--we obey Him out of love, when we sin, He provides a way to deal with sin. He provided that the blood of these animals be what washes away the sins. The whole sanctuary service was a learning experience about the coming Messiah. The people brought the sin offerings, the priests sprinkled the blood on the viei, the High Priest went into the Most Holy place once a year for the Day of Atonement. Please, just look it up in Lev 16--it's just too long to type out. But it was the blood of the animals that cleansed from sin. On the day of Atonement, the High Priest had to offer a sin offering, a bullock, for his own sins and with incense and the blood, sprinkle the blood upon the mercy seat--the seat of God. He was to take 2 goats, one was slain and the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat for the sins of the people, the other goat, the scapegoat, the High priest was to put his hands on the head of that goat and confess all the sins of the children of Israel and then he was to have the goat lead out into the wilderness and let it go.

This all represented the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb sacrificed daily for the sins of the people, and the one goat slain and its blood sprinkled on the mercy seat once a year. It was the blood that cleansed.

Christ became that sacrificial animal, it's His blood that cleanses us from sin. Christ was not killed by anyone on the cross, He gave His life up for our sins. John 10:17,18--"Therefore doth my Father love me, Because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of My Father." Jesus was already dead when the spear pierced His side.

Christ paid the price for sin, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."--
He paid the price--death. But, as with the goats--the one scapegoat had all the sins laid on his head, and it was led out into the wilderness---Jesus paid the price, Satan will bear the blame, and be led into the wilderness for a thousand years. Rev 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil,, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."

Christ is the new covenant, His blood is what cleans. Heb 9:26 "....but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Heb 10:1--"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never, with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."--8,9--"Above, when he siad, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldst not, neither had pleasure there: which are offered by the law:Then said He, Lo I come to do they will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second." Heb 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever, them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that He had said before. And this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and into their minds will I write them, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now, where remmission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethern, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus. By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh."

The thing is, there is no everlasting burning hell--Christ never went to hell, He died that we may live---Rev 20:5,6 "And the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Heb 9:27--"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but then after this the judgement."
The saved die but once--the lost, die twice, once on earth as is natural for all, and then the 2nd death, in the lake of fire--death--not everlasting life in hell, but death.

1Tim 6:15,16 "Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords, Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man hath seen, nor can see:to whom be honour and power everlasting, Amen."

I will now retire so that the stone throwing may commence.

 

[mmksparbud]

The sacrificial system was set up as a type and as a shadowy depiction of the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Jesus died, his blood was split, to remove sins from his people; to appeal to God's love and mercy; to show God's love and mercy; and to experience death, conquer it, and elevate humanity to heaven in his own person. Other things were accomplished by Jesus incarnation and his active and passive obedience to God's will.

---It was a rhetorical question---I went on to answer it--or is that the only part you read???

 

[MoreCoffee]

The sacrificial system was set up as a type and as a shadowy depiction of the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Jesus died, his blood was split, to remove sins from his people; to appeal to God's love and mercy; to show God's love and mercy; and to experience death, conquer it, and elevate humanity to heaven in his own person. Other things were accomplished by Jesus incarnation and his active and passive obedience to God's will.

---It was a rhetorical question---I went on to answer it--or is that the only part you read???

No. But my answer was shorter and more to the point

 

[Thekla]

no my friend. not recent at all. only revived.

It is first attested as an understanding in the 1100s, but more fully developed in the 16th/17th century.

The understanding of, for example, Romans 3:25 is somewhat different; as God made Christ the equivalent of the "mercy seat" that by faith in His blood, God's wrath might be held back.

As when the Israelites were spared death by the blood of lambs smeared on the doorways. And also the sprinkling of the blood of sacrifice. In this sense, God was not angry with the lambs slain to spare the Israelites, nor the animals sacrificed in the OT. Recall, " The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51)

Just as Moses stood in the gap, and God spared the Israelites and just as God would not have destroyed Sodom and Gommorah if even 10 righteous men were found there, so the sacrifice of Christ stands for all in perpetuity, Who "was slain from the foundation of the world".

God, the Holy Trinity, is love teaches John; how can love be wrath visited upon one person of the Holy Trinity to another ?

 

[simonpeter]

Blind post.

Penal substitution is not in the bible. Christus Victor is. The two are very different.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Blind post.

Penal substitution is not in the bible. Christus Victor is. The two are very different.

Yes, they do differ.