Know....See.....Hear

[twinc]

can something be known,seen or heard without the presence of a knower,se'er or hearer - twinc

 

[Gottservant]

It's a paradox that cannot be understood without actually seeing, knowing or hearing something

 

[Davian]

"Perceptual reality is beyond a symphony of joy"

Random Deepak Chopra Quote Generator - Wisdom of Chopra

 

[twinc]

It's a paradox that cannot be understood without actually seeing, knowing or hearing something

surely the answer is no - but this it seems is unacceptable to and by materialists and atheists etc - twinc

 

[Gottservant]

surely the answer is no - but this it seems is unacceptable to and by materialists and atheists etc - twinc

Yes but what if noone is there to prove the answer is no, either?

 

[Eudaimonist]

surely the answer is no - but this it seems is unacceptable to and by materialists and atheists etc - twinc

What leads you to think that atheists and materialists would disagree?

Of course nothing can be known, seen, or heard without the existence of someone who is knowing, seeing, or hearing.

That doesn't mean that nothing exists without a someone. It simply means that nothing that does exist is experienced.

To put that another way: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, nothing is heard, but the tree still exists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[twinc]

What leads you to think that atheists and materialists would disagree?

Of course nothing can be known, seen, or heard without the existence of someone who is knowing, seeing, or hearing.

That doesn't mean that nothing exists without a someone. It simply means that nothing that does exist is experienced.

To put that another way: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, nothing is heard, but the tree still exists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

you have forgotten about the se'er and knower and just considered the hearer - pink elephants also exist but are not really real - twinc

 

[Eudaimonist]

you have forgotten about the se'er and knower and just considered the hearer

That was just an example.

pink elephants also exist but are not really real - twinc

Pink elephants don't exist, period. When one imagines a pink elephant, it doesn't exist as a pink elephant, but merely as some mental image.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

can something be known,seen or heard without the presence of a knower,se'er or hearer - twinc

No.

 

[twinc]

That was just an example.



Pink elephants don't exist, period. When one imagines a pink elephant, it doesn't exist as a pink elephant, but merely as some mental image.


eudaimonia,

Mark

dogmatically certain it may not exist for you but it certainly exists for those who see them - they exist alright even though they may not be or be real - twinc

 

[Eudaimonist]

it may not exist for you but it certainly exists for those who see them

No, it does not.

A visualization or a concept exists -- something in the mind -- but not a living elephant that you can feed peanuts and ride around on.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[twinc]

No, it does not.

A visualization or a concept exists -- something in the mind -- but not a living elephant that you can feed peanuts and ride around on.


eudaimonia,

Mark

some people in dreams can go to a zoo and feed peanuts and ride elephants that exist but are not real -anyway where do they exist - twinc

 

[quilbilly]

some people in dreams can go to a zoo and feed peanuts and ride elephants that exist but are not real -anyway where do they exist - twinc

I can see you are trying to be a wit but you're only half way there

 

[Eudaimonist]

some people in dreams can go to a zoo and feed peanuts and ride elephants that exist but are not real -anyway where do they exist - twinc

No elephants exist in dreams. Only visualizations of elephants exist in dreams.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[lupusFati]

Hmm. Ideas are nouns, sure, but that doesn't mean they physically exist in the real world. A 'pink elephant' (in that it is naturally occurring and has no scientific explanation, nor is it just painted pink) only really exists as the firing of neurons and synapses in the mind. It is not an existing object. Just because I can visualize a thing does not mean it physically exists.

I see where this argument is going, however, so let's just skip the pleasantries and go directly to the religious debate.

 

[quatona]

I see where this argument is going, however, so let's just skip the pleasantries and go directly to the religious debate.

 

[lupusFati]

Hey, I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

 

[twinc]

I can see you are trying to be a wit but you're only half way there

wit in limits except that I am deadly serious, but how could you know this for most people think that the mind must dwell within the confines of the skull.But if mind is the secret manufactory of space, how can it be itself tied to spatial limits ? How can it be limited to this or that point in space ? How can it be placed only in each man's head ? We look in vain for a plummet which shall fathom the mind's depth or a rod which shall measure its breath and length.
There confronting us is a world of hard realities,a panoramic procession of solid objects and substantial things.He who comes like Socrates,to persuade us to call into question their "outsideness" which seems so certain and so irrefutable has no easy task.He is quite unwelcome,for even were his queer ideas to be true they are most distasteful.They appear to remove the very ground from beneath our feet.There are inherent properties in such ideas which render them chemically repulsive to the crowd mentality,which flies from truth to take refuge in self-deception[Brunton] - more later - twinc

 

[lupusFati]

wit in limits except that I am deadly serious, but how could you know this for most people think that the mind must dwell within the confines of the skull.But if mind is the secret manufactory of space, how can it be itself tied to spatial limits ? How can it be limited to this or that point in space ? How can it be placed only in each man's head ? We look in vain for a plummet which shall fathom the mind's depth or a rod which shall measure its breath and length.
There confronting us is a world of hard realities,a panoramic procession of solid objects and substantial things.He who comes like Socrates,to persuade us to call into question their "outsideness" which seems so certain and so irrefutable has no easy task.He is quite unwelcome,for even were his queer ideas to be true they are most distasteful.They appear to remove the very ground from beneath our feet.There are inherent properties in such ideas which render them chemically repulsive to the crowd mentality,which flies from truth to take refuge in self-deception[Brunton] - more later - twinc

More later... yet you have not even clarified what it is you're saying here.

I really have absolutely no idea what your point is. So whether there is more later or not doesn't matter. It's irrelevant if you're vague.

 

[twinc]

More later... yet you have not even clarified what it is you're saying here.

I really have absolutely no idea what your point is. So whether there is more later or not doesn't matter. It's irrelevant if you're vague.

hardly vague - just worn out and weary,at 83, trying to get the unacceptable accepted as stated and thr reason/s why etc - still I plod on for the sake of some hopefully - twinc