Do Any Other Religions Boast Such A Claim?

[SanFrank]

I need to know if a comparable exists before I can shame other religions in my next sermon. We have here written accounts of someone other than Christ, performing miracles and the people attribute that power of miracles to Christ Jesus. I dont think the same can be said of any other supposed prophets of other religions that came along after Christ. Visible miracles led the people to Christ and not eloquence of speech or supposed scriptures handed over to someone by an angel. Visible miracles is what allowed Paul to retain the people's attention and I would say obedience. The people would have given him their own eyes if Paul had asked for them -- a clear description of awe the people felt over the power of those miracles. The people were clearly overwhelmed by what they experienced thru Paul and that Spirit remained with them enabling them to form churches and congregations. Paul's mere eloquence of speech had little to do with church building. Today that power is not as visible or evident for various reasons but that is a subject for another thread.

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?" -- Galatians 3

and

"As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me." -- Galatians 4

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, if you're sticking to after Jesus, I have nothing to point to.

However, you should know something important. The Torah expressly states that you should not follow anybody just because they perform signs and wonders. The Torah is clear that the message of the person is more important than what they do in terms of miracles. Deut 13, for reference.

 

[Rationalt]

Visible miracles led the people to Christ

That is quite true.Most People would be impressed by the miraculous healings performed by Jesus especially in an age where medical knowledge was virtually Non existent.
It is also a fact but for constantine christianity would not have spread .

Btw,One can Find Miraculous healing stories all over the world.Even the neighbouring Egypt had healers.

 

[benmaarof]

Miracles are an unreliable method of convincing unbelievers. Even today, magicians can conjure "miracles". Christians can't prove Jesus walked on water and raise the dead. Jews can't prove Moses parted the seas. Muslims can't prove Muhammad parted the moon.

That's why the Prophet Muhammad says that the Quran was his only miracle because it explains the illogicality of a non-existent God and the illogicality of the nature of God other than an absolute unity.

 

[Rationalt]

Miracles are an unreliable method of convincing unbelievers. Even today, magicians can conjure "miracles". Christians can't prove Jesus walked on water and raise the dead. Jews can't prove Moses parted the seas. Muslims can't prove Muhammad parted the moon.

That's why the Prophet Muhammad says that the Quran was his only miracle because it explains the illogicality of a non-existent God and the illogicality of the nature of God other than an absolute unity.

The Quran didn't convince the People in Mecca cause only a couple of dozens followed him.Also those people are dirt poor.The Medinan part time bandits got attracted to muhammad and they were also few in number.

Only after muhammad's bandits were successful in Looting caravans in medina and got their hands on merchandise People started joining him in big numbers.

It is not the miracle of Quran But the allure of BOOTY that made people join him.

 

[benmaarof]

The Quran didn't convince the People in Mecca cause only a couple of dozens followed him.Also those people are dirt poor.The Medinan part time bandits got attracted to muhammad and they were also few in number.

Only after muhammad's bandits were successful in Looting caravans in medina and got their hands on merchandise People started joining him in big numbers.

It is not the miracle of Quran But the allure of BOOTY that made people join him.

Almost the whole of Arabian Medina converted even BEFORE the Prophet Muhammad emigrated there and BEFORE he consolidated his power. That's why he was chosen as their de-facto leader when he finally did emigrated. That's not possible if the number of Muslims were few. So, what you were proposing does not make logical sense. By the way hundreds, not a couple of dozens emigrated to Medina before the prophet.

And those converted thousands would not have known about the caravan raids against the Quraish that the Prophet initiated to regain back the stolen and confiscated property of the oppressed Meccan Muslims that emigrated unless they can see the future.

And those Medinan Muslims converted for the same reason that the Meccan Muslim did before. Because the Prophet presented them a more logical concept of the divine than their current multiple idols worship.

You got the facts and timeline incorrect.

 

[simplegifts]

Well, if you're sticking to after Jesus, I have nothing to point to.

However, you should know something important. The Torah expressly states that you should not follow anybody just because they perform signs and wonders. The Torah is clear that the message of the person is more important than what they do in terms of miracles. Deut 13, for reference.

Yes testing the spirits.
2 Corinthians 11
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

1 Thessalonians 5
20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil.

In Judiasm is there anything like the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

 

[Rationalt]

Almost the whole of Arabian Medina converted even BEFORE the Prophet Muhammad emigrated there and BEFORE he consolidated his power.

That is a lie.Nobody save some dirt poor people accepted him as their leader.

That's why he was chosen as their de-facto leader when he finally did emigrated. That's not possible if the number of Muslims were few. So, what you were proposing does not make logical sense. By the way hundreds, not a couple of dozens emigrated to Medina before the prophet.

Another Lie.Show me the proof.

And those converted thousands would not have known about the caravan raids against the Quraish that the Prophet initiated to regain back the stolen and confiscated property of the oppressed Meccan Muslims that emigrated unless they can see the future.

The so called oppressed muslims were dirt Poor to begin with.They didn't have anything to be stolen.

Muhammad's justification for robbing caravans is that he was prevented from the way of Allah(Whatever that means).

Quran 2:217 They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution(wal-fit'natu) is graver than slaughter..

Here is the context (Of Caravan looting as given in tafsir) Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Nakhlah Military Maneuvers, and the Ruling on Fighting during the Sacred Months

And those Medinan Muslims converted for the same reason that the Meccan Muslim did before. Because the Prophet presented them a more logical concept of the divine than their current multiple idols worship.

You got the facts and timeline incorrect.

Once again the logical concepts(Like Allah waiting with Virgins in heaven ) didn't influence many people.What influenced most of them was The idea of gaining booty and the success of his looting missions coupled with threat of murder.

Meccans didn't accept Muhammad as prophet until he seized Mecca with 10000 men from medina(And adjoining places) and served an ultimatum;convert or die.

I have presented some basic evidence.If you want more details i can do so quoting from sirah and hadiths.

 

[benmaarof]

That is a lie.Nobody save some dirt poor people accepted him as their leader.

Usman, Abu Bakar, Umar, Hamzah and plenty others were merchants and businessmen and nobles that emigrated to Medina. You better check your facts.

Another Lie.Show me the proof.

You are kidding, right? Where's YOUR proof?

Was it true that he became the leader of Medinah as soon as he set foot on it? How was it possible for him to be the leader of the Medinan if the number of Muslims were few?

The so called oppressed muslims were dirt Poor to begin with.They didn't have anything to be stolen.

Again, plenty of them were well off while they were back in Mecca. You got your facts wrong.

Muhammad's justification for robbing caravans is that he was prevented from the way of Allah(Whatever that means).

Quran 2:117 They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution(wal-fit'natu) is graver than slaughter..

Here is the context (Of Caravan looting as given in tafsir) Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Nakhlah Military Maneuvers, and the Ruling on Fighting during the Sacred Months

Once again the logical concepts(Like Allah waiting with Virgins in heaven ) didn't influence many people.What influenced most of them was The idea of gaining booty and the success of his looting missions coupled with threat of murder.

Again, your timeline is not possible. Most of the Medinan Arabs were already Muslims before the Prophet set foot on Medina. Get your facts straight.

Hijra(Wikipedia)

Meccans didn't accept Muhammad as prophet until he seized Mecca with 10000 men from medina(And adjoining places) and served an ultimatum;convert or die.

He did gave an ultimatum. Do not oppose them from getting rid of the Kaaba of the idols. But he did not forced conversion on them.

I have presented some basic evidence.If you want more details i can do so quoting from sirah and hadiths.

Please do. But please bear in mind, we really do not consider sirahs as absolute facts, only the Hadith have much weight. The sirahs do not really have the checks and balances on the facts compared to the Hadiths, especially from Bukhari & Muslim.

 

[benmaarof]

The so called oppressed muslims were dirt Poor to begin with.They didn't have anything to be stolen.

From Wikipedia : Uthman ibn Affan
Migration to Medina
In 622, Uthman and his wife, Ruqayya, migrated to Medina. They were amongst the third batch of Muslims who migrated to Medina. On arrival in Medina, Uthman stayed with Abu Talha ibn Thabit of the Banu Najjar. After a short while, Uthman purchased a house of his own and moved there. Being one of the richest merchants of Mecca, and having amassed a considerable fortune, Uthman did not need any financial help from his Ansari brothers, as he brought all his wealth with him to Medina. In Medina, the Muslims were generally farmers and were not very interested in trade, and thus most of the trading that took place in the town was handled by the Jews. Thus, there was considerable space for the Muslims in promoting trade and Uthman took advantage of this position, soon establishing himself as a trader in Medina. He worked hard and honestly, and his business flourished, soon becoming one of the richest men in Medina.[6]

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The miracle stories in the New Testament fall straight into the realm of pious legend, no more factual than assertions that the Buddha could talk from the moment of his birth, and caused blossoms to grow wherever he set his bare foot.

Christianity ultimately prevailed because of its curious mixture of intolerant exclusivism ("We've got a monopoly on Truth, and everybody else worships evil spirits") and possessive inclusiveness ("you don't need to be especially insightful, enlightened or even willing to learn if you want to join. Everyone's welcome"), and because it was even more suited to building and maintaining a hierarchical society with a small ruling class than the Roman state cult.

 

[LoAmmi]

In Judiasm is there anything like the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

We don't have a concept of a Trinity so we don't have a "Holy Spirit". The list you gave seems to just be generic good things. Keeping the Torah is supposed to bring those kinds of things.

 

[Rationalt]

Usman, Abu Bakar, Umar, Hamzah and plenty others were merchants and businessmen and nobles that emigrated to Medina. You better check your facts.

Except for Abu Bakar all others you mentioned are Poor or unsuccessful businessmen.

You are kidding, right? Where's YOUR proof?

It is you who claimed all of medina converted to muhammad's religion and hence the onus on you to show the proof.

Was it true that he became the leader of Medinah as soon as he set foot on it? How was it possible for him to be the leader of the Medinan if the number of Muslims were few?

I said Number of muslims who followed from mecca to medina are FEW.That is the fact.Evidently the miraculous Quran didn't impress many.PLease don't twist my words.

Again, plenty of them were well off while they were back in Mecca. You got your facts wrong.

Abu Bakr is the only successful one among his followers.Every body else are dirt poor.

Again, your timeline is not possible. Most of the Medinan Arabs were already Muslims before the Prophet set foot on Medina. Get your facts straight.

Hijra(Wikipedia)

The wiki link doesn't say That.

Only the Ansars (Meaning protectors) converted. Even they didn't help muhammad in loooting caravans during "sacred month" and hence the miraculous quranic revelation 2:217

He did gave an ultimatum. Do not oppose them from getting rid of the Kaaba of the idols. But he did not forced conversion on them.

Now, that is what I call Muslim logic.Muhammad destroyed their place of worship and their religion killed those who opposed him and yet you say there is no forced conversion.

Please do. But please bear in mind, we really do not consider sirahs as absolute facts, only the Hadith have much weight. The sirahs do not really have the checks and balances on the facts compared to the Hadiths, especially from Bukhari & Muslim.

I already quoted Tafsir regarding quran's miraculous revelation in the context of looting caravans. You have chosen not to respond to it.

 

[Rationalt]

From Wikipedia : Uthman ibn Affan
Migration to Medina
In 622, Uthman and his wife, Ruqayya, migrated to Medina. They were amongst the third batch of Muslims who migrated to Medina. On arrival in Medina, Uthman stayed with Abu Talha ibn Thabit of the Banu Najjar. After a short while, Uthman purchased a house of his own and moved there. Being one of the richest merchants of Mecca, and having amassed a considerable fortune, Uthman did not need any financial help from his Ansari brothers, as he brought all his wealth with him to Medina. In Medina, the Muslims were generally farmers and were not very interested in trade, and thus most of the trading that took place in the town was handled by the Jews. Thus, there was considerable space for the Muslims in promoting trade and Uthman took advantage of this position, soon establishing himself as a trader in Medina. He worked hard and honestly, and his business flourished, soon becoming one of the richest men in Medina.[6]

He was indeed rich.Any more names ?.The other names you mentioned are wrong with the exception of Abu Bakr.

 

[benmaarof]

He was indeed rich.Any more names ?.The other names you mentioned are wrong with the exception of Abu Bakr.

You were WRONG when you said ALL of them were dirt poor. Turns out Usman and Abu Bakar were not. The emigrants consists of Meccans from all walks of life. Some were really dirt poor. Others were just poor. Some were middle class. Some were merchants. Some were nobles.
You can't seem to justify your claim. Where's you proof the rest were dirt poor? And what does that really mean, by the way?

 

[essentialsaltes]

I need to know if a comparable exists before I can shame other religions in my next sermon. We have here written accounts of someone other than Christ, performing miracles and the people attribute that power of miracles to Christ Jesus. I dont think the same can be said of any other supposed prophets of other religions that came along after Christ.

I'm not sure what counts as comparable in your mind, but there are many miracle workers, and their powers are presumably attributed to the divine, if not necessarily a previous prophet (which seems needlessly specific -- I mean, you could say "Jesus is the only prophet born in Bethlehem. No other religion can claim that!")

Sai Baba worked miracles, and was even the reincarnation of the earlier Sai Baba, who also worked miracles.

For Buddhism, we have Ichadon.

Shinto kannushi are "capable of miracles" with the power of the kami (spirits).

Plenty of Jewish mystics with miraculous powers.

Visible miracles led the people to Christ

Shame miracles don't happen anymore.

 

[benmaarof]

Except for Abu Bakar all others you mentioned are Poor or unsuccessful businessmen.

They were not. Where's your proof?

It is you who claimed all of medina converted to Muhammad's religion and hence the onus on you to show the proof.

I said almost all. Don't you think it would be ridiculous that the prophet Muhammad would become the leader of the Medinans if the number of the Muslim Meccans and Medinan were few? Where's the logic in that?

I said Number of muslims who followed from mecca to medina are FEW.That is the fact.Evidently the miraculous Quran didn't impress many.PLease don't twist my words.

And where did you get your "fact" from?

The miracle of the Quran is the logical explaination for the existence of an absolute God of Unity.

Abu Bakr is the only successful one among his followers.Every body else are dirt poor.

What does that actually mean anyway? You have got no proof about the others. Some of them brought all of their belongings, some, just a few, while others just the shirts off their backs when they emigrated to Medina to escape persecution.

The wiki link doesn't say That.

Only the Ansars (Meaning protectors) converted. Even they didn't help muhammad in loooting caravans during "sacred month" and hence the miraculous quranic revelation 2:217

Do you even know the meaning of "Ansar"? Literally it means "Helper". Almost every emigrated Meccan Emigrant (Muhajirin) were joined with another Medinan called Ansar which is somebody considered very close to them compared to others to help with their transition to life in Medina. And both Ansar and Muhajirin were involved in the first skirmishes.

Now, that is what I call Muslim logic.Muhammad destroyed their place of worship and their religion killed those who opposed him and yet you say there is no forced conversion.

The prophet Muhammad did not destroy the Kaabah. He destroyed the idols around and inside the Kaaba which was the structure that the prophets Abraham and Ishmael built for the worship a single God. Who was forcibly converted and when did it took place?

I already quoted Tafsir regarding quran's miraculous revelation in the context of looting caravans. You have chosen not to respond to it.

The pagan Arabs used to fight a lot among their different tribes. One time they agreed that certain months would be set aside that there cannot be any fighting. During one caravan raid, it happens during one of these months. After that, the raiders felt guilty of violating the month but God reveal to the Prophet the particular surah.

 

[Rationalt]

You were WRONG when you said ALL of them were dirt poor. Turns out Usman and Abu Bakar were not.

Yep, i accept that.

The emigrants consists of Meccans from all walks of life. Some were really dirt poor. Others were just poor. Some were middle class. Some were merchants. Some were nobles.
You can't seem to justify your claim. Where's you proof the rest were dirt poor? And what does that really mean, by the way?

I didn't know there are many walks of life in Mecca.They were Indeed dirt poor as many of them go hungry.There was a hadith on that.


Now, Back to Miraculous Quranic revelations.Tell me what Miracles of Quran impressed his followers ?. I only see some people impressed with Muhammad's oratory. Apart from that free loading proposed by muhammad seems to impress some others and promises of Abundance in heaven.

Tell me what is miraculous about looting caravans ?. Muhammad failed in initial attempts to loot them but his persistence payed off and with some support from Quranic revelations.

 

[Arthra]

Miracles are an unreliable method of convincing unbelievers. Even today, magicians can conjure "miracles". Christians can't prove Jesus walked on water and raise the dead. Jews can't prove Moses parted the seas. Muslims can't prove Muhammad parted the moon.

That's why the Prophet Muhammad says that the Quran was his only miracle because it explains the illogicality of a non-existent God and the illogicality of the nature of God other than an absolute unity.

I agree with that generally ... Miracles are only a proof to those who experience them..Abdul-Baha also discussed the issue of miracles..particularly physical miracles as not being as importamnt as spiritual miracles..

The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life -- that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: "Let the dead bury their dead;" for "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

[1]
[1 Matt. 8:22; John 3:6.]

Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: "These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them."[1]

[1 Cf. Matt. 13:14 and John 12:40-41.]

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 100

Additional note:

The Aramaic scholar George Lamsa also pointed out that the word for "by" and "on" are the same word in Aramaic... thus Jesus walking on the water could be translated as "by the sea". Also re. the multiplication of the loaves and fishes Lamsa indicated the "miracle" was in the people sharing what they had in the desert and not producing loaves and fishes out of this air.

 

[LoAmmi]

I mean, you could say "Jesus is the only prophet born in Bethlehem. No other religion can claim that!"

King David.