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Can The Thorn In THe Flesh Be A Particluar Sin Struggle?

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Given that Paul declared that a messenger of Satan was sent to harrass him, and I, myself, feeling like I am harrassed 24/7 by a particular sin issue that has been with me since early childhood, could the thorn in the flesh be a struggle with sin?

I know that there are those who believe the thorn was an infirmity of such, like his eye sight or speech....but....just thinking out loud here.

If anything, it definelty keeps me glued to the incomprehensible mercy He has, which in turn keeps me humbled, reminding me of teh wretch I was and still can be.
 
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The Fire Rises

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One definition of "sin" that could be used is "missing the mark" or basically, falling short of God's glory - which we ALL have. Is there a single day where we've lived up to all of God's standards perfectly without any sinful thought or deed? I wish.

So the reality is that we all need God's mercy, all the time, every day. Heck, it's a miracle we're even breathing right now.

Now, with that being said, while God is aware of our imperfections, that doesn't give us the green light to just keep on in our sinful ways. He has the power to set us free, if we let Him and if we truly want to change. The will to change has to be there, and it's pretty clear to me that you do want to change for the better.

I struggled mightily with several addictions. I wanted to quit, and tried to quit, but yet I kept falling back into my old ways. The problem was that I was relying on my own strength, which is laughably weak in comparison to God's might. That's always the key, relying on Him and not on ourselves, focusing on His grace rather than our sins. You see, the more attention we give our temptations, the more likely we are to give in. I highly reccomend reading "Battlefield of the Mind" it's a great book about overcoming temptations, and getting our priorities right with God.

Regarding your quote, you're talking about 2 Corinthians 12:7 right? "Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." This makes sense in that God can use our imperfections to humble us and remind us that we need Him. But, the "messenger of Satan" part kind of confuses me.

One thing you could do is do a google search for a translation of the verse, but that can sometimes be dangerous, there's a lot of weird interpretations out there.

Anyways, have a happy Friday
 
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Eyesee

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Given that Paul declared that a messenger of Satan was sent to harrass him, and I, myself, feeling like I am harrassed 24/7 by a particular sin issue that has been with me since early childhood, could the thorn in the flesh be a struggle with sin?

I know that there are those who believe the thorn was an infirmity of such, like his eye sight or speech....but....just thinking out loud here.

If anything, it definelty keeps me glued to the incomprehensible mercy He has, which in turn keeps me humbled, reminding me of teh wretch I was and still can be.

Could be. I don't personally believe it was an infirmaty since the Paul clearly says:

2 Cor 12:7 said:
So to keep me: from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.


Could it be a physical ailment? I guess, but it would seem strange that the bible would use "a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan" as a description for a physical ailment - especially when it doesn't use that kind of language anywhere else to describe a physical ailment.

I think if you take what Paul says at face value, a supernatural harrassment of sorts was allowed in Paul's life to keep him from being concieted. If it was to keep him from being concieted, then Paul's problem wasn't physical it was mental (as in being prideful or thinking he was "all that").

Where you have to be careful is thinking that God is causing you to sin to keep you humble -- that's not what Paul is saying and that line of thinking makes God an accomplice of sin. Rather, the focus is on God keeping our pride in check by realizing that without Him, we would be completely lost and therefore we need to depend on Him for everything. We cannot stand on our own.
 
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itdepends

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I don't think the thorn in the flesh is a particular sin struggle ... I think it's exactly what Paul says it is: a messenger from Satan. And yes I believe it can be there from childhood. I've known people who I believe have this issue. It's horrific. This is why I don't think it's a struggle with "sin". It is something else. How this spirit manifested with Paul, has been debated. Was it through a person who hounded his ministry ? Was it a direct attack on him ?

A key to understanding it though, I think, is the way Paul describes it:

It buffets him, torments him, and it is a thorn in the FLESH. In other words, it effects his flesh. And also, it's a messenger of Satan … a separate entity, separate from himself. It's not the desire to sin that is causing Paul an issue … it is like being stabbed with a sharp object. Buffeted.

Envision someone being tormented with something physical. As though you walked into a room and suddenly there was a foe, and this foe came up on you, and started to stab you with a small knife, in different parts of your body, and it wouldn't stop. You have the authority of Christ with you, but this spirit won't leave or honor it. So your authority doesn't work, and there is a reason for it. God showed Paul this reason for him personally.

In the examples I am thinking of, I've known people who have experienced their body being abused, beaten, etc, by a spirit. In the lighter forms, it's as though their senses are attacked … sight, sound, the nerves in their body. Like being smashed in the head with bricks. In movies, this is a possessed person. But that's the movies. If it's someone who has the Spirit of Christ, then it is a confusing reality, and not one easily understood by others who haven't walked in those same shoes. It is similar to trying to understand why the apostles and others have suffered at the hands of others at any time, especially if they were doing the will of God. So if your body is experiencing this … as though you are actually being beaten, abused, tortured, tormented … PHYSICALLY … then I think you may be dealing with such a messenger of Satan. So it's not an "internal struggle". It is as though a person is standing there hitting you, abusing you, in the flesh, tormenting it. It's not just the "internal struggle", it manifests physically on it's own. These people (that I've known at least) have experienced, at times, physical marks on their body, burns, strange rashes, bruising, and their body reacts strongly. Sights, sounds, smells, as though being slammed in the head over and over.

And I've found that trying to rationalize reasons as to why God would allow it, doesn't cut the mustard ... it only infuriates and disillusions a person more because trying to rationalize evil that is happening to you doesn't usually bring forth much but denial and/or disillusionment. I've found it helpful to find out the exact reason from God directly for why a thorn would continue to be there, and if it is such a thing in the first place. God told Paul His grace was sufficient for him ... and perhaps He showed Paul more as well on the issue (like Paul's tendency to be conceited, which I could see perhaps giving Paul a "god complex" or sending him right back to his murderous ways). In one particular instance I'm thinking of with someone I know, they believe God showed them why it was there, and after YEARS of dealing with it, they understood more why it hadn't been removed yet. But that was after years, and God showed them directly why it hadn't been removed.

My understanding of this is backed by direct experiences that parallel Paul's account, not Biblical exegesis … so I'm not arguing it from a scholastic standpoint. I'm not debating exactly how Paul experienced this or whatever, only that I'm seeing the direct parallels with those I've known and it fits with Paul's own words in that instance in a lot of ways.

Again I think the key, though … apart from God showing you directly that it is … is you are able to point to a separate entity. Not just yourself. Not just the internal burn and struggle or whatever. And your body reacts to this entity abusing it, tormenting it, in a variety of ways. But it's an ENTITY. It's not a desire.
 
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ezeric

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It is imperative that we let scripture interpret scripture.

How did GOD use it, in the earlier chapters or first?

"But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides (flesh). They will give you trouble in the land where you will live." Numbers 33:55

Thorns in the flesh/side are not sin, but if you don't take it to the LORD (as Paul did) it could become sin, or a point of missing the mark, but that is only if we have a wrong attitude (spirit) about it.

In and of itself is NOT sin.

In both Paul's and the Children of Israel (Book of Numbers) they were people, that would circumvent and undermine what GOD says. Paul called them the "judaizers" see Philippians 3:2 they were, in Paul's case, Jews that added law and rules (circumcision) to the final work of JESUS.

If you add to JESUS anything then you really are saying HE didn't do enough.

JESUS + anything pollutes perfection.

Paul preached JESUS, plus nothing - just HIM.

-eric
 
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MastersPiece

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Given that Paul declared that a messenger of Satan was sent to harrass him, and I, myself, feeling like I am harrassed 24/7 by a particular sin issue that has been with me since early childhood, could the thorn in the flesh be a struggle with sin?
I know that there are those who believe the thorn was an infirmity of such, like his eye sight or speech....but....just thinking out loud here.
If anything, it definelty keeps me glued to the incomprehensible mercy He has, which in turn keeps me humbled, reminding me of teh wretch I was and still can be.
Some people interpret Paul's thorn in the flesh was different things...
- An infirmity or sickness of some kind [Galatians 4:13-15; 2 Corinthians 12:9-10]
- An eye disease or sickness [Galatians 4:13-15; Galatians 6:11]
- A sin or weakness of the flesh [Galatians 4:13-15; 2 Corinthians 12:9]
- God allowed him to be sick [2 Corinthians 12:8-9]
Personally I believe it was persecution.. The Word says it was a way for God to keep Paul humble - lest he be exalted above measure [2 Corinthians 12:7].. I think Paul's ministry brought him many followers, some of whom would put him on a pedestal and God will share His glory with no one. I believe this thorn in his flesh kept him safe.

However, onward to your own struggles.. I empathize with your situation. I was bound for many years as a Christian by smoking & drinking. I don't know why, but the Lord waited 20 years to set me free and when He did, it was instant. I don't understand it. Your struggle will indeed keep you humble, but it may also cause you to be under condemnation. There is a day set aside for your freedom from this thing - Continue to talk to Papa about it - He is fully aware of all you're dealing with and knows the desire of your heart. He will set you free when the fullness of time arrives for this. God bless you.
 
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Peripatetic

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We don't know what Paul's thorn was, but his actions (praying), attitude (asking, not demanding), and response ("gladly" accepting the answer) is a good example for thorns of any kind that we may have. He also used it as a teaching opportunity for others. We can do the same.
 
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Sketcher

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God wants us to stop sinning, yet the thorn in the flesh was something he refused to remove from Paul's life. If the thorn in the flesh could apply to a sin struggle, you would therefore have to say that God wants people to continue struggling with sin even though the people are ready to be through with it. This is not consistent with God's holiness or with the Bible's message on sin. A physical or mental ailment, perhaps allowing a persecutor or just a trying person in your life. But not sin itself. God gives you opportunities to get rid of sin in your life by allowing trials, he does not force you to continue to have sin in your life.
 
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aiki

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Given that Paul declared that a messenger of Satan was sent to harrass him, and I, myself, feeling like I am harrassed 24/7 by a particular sin issue that has been with me since early childhood, could the thorn in the flesh be a struggle with sin?
Do you mean in Paul's case, or in the experience of people generally?

I think any struggle with sin is one that occurs mainly out of ignorance and/or force of habit. Scripture makes it very clear that every genuine believer is "dead to sin." (Ro.6 & 8; Ga. 2:20; 5:16-25) Sin has no more power over the person in whom the Holy Spirit of God has come to reside. Many believers think they must just bear down, grit their teeth, and pray God will rescue them from their struggle with sin. They don't realize that the battle with sin has already been won for them by Christ some 2000 years ago. All that remains is for the believer to "reckon" it so, to put all their weight upon the truth of their death to sin even when what they feel or experience may seem to make that truth a lie. This is what it means to "walk by faith." And when a believer walks this way only then does that believer begin to experience the truth of his/her spiritual condition in everyday living.

I remark on all this because I think it makes the idea that Paul's "thorn" was a struggle with some particularly besetting sin rather unlikely. He was the writer, after all, of the verses I posted above.

I know that there are those who believe the thorn was an infirmity of such, like his eye sight or speech....but....just thinking out loud here.
A physical affliction seems the most likely given what Scripture says. Probably an issue with Paul's eyesight. I wouldn't be dogmatic about this, though.

If anything, it definelty keeps me glued to the incomprehensible mercy He has, which in turn keeps me humbled, reminding me of teh wretch I was and still can be.
You are a "new creation" in Christ, brother. "Old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new." The more you focus on your sin and failure, and the person you were, the more conformed to those things you'll be. Fix your mind, instead, on who the Bible says you are as a child of God. "Look unto Jesus the author and finisher of your faith." As you do so, you will be subtly and profoundly conformed to the person of Christ. You don't have to be eternally in the grip of some particular sin. You are "dead unto sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ the Lord." All that remains is for you to believe it and live it. :)

Selah.
 
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The bible should always interpret the Bible and when you look at how the phrase is used in the old testament, you will realise it always refers to people!

Numbers 33:55 NKJV
But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be IRRITANTS IN YOUR EYES AND THORNS IN YOUR SIDES , and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell.

Joshua 23:13 NKJV
know for certain that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and SCOURGES ON YOUR SIDES AND THORNS IN YOUR EYES, until you perish from this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Judges 2:3 NKJV
Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be THORNS IN YOUR SIDE, and their gods shall be a snare to you.'"

Paul's thorn in the flesh was a satanic messenger that stirred up people wherever Paul went to persecute Him. He was the most persecuted of all the apostles!

Freedom from persecution is not part of the finished work of Christ on the cross.
 
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Peripatetic

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God wants us to stop sinning, yet the thorn in the flesh was something he refused to remove from Paul's life. If the thorn in the flesh could apply to a sin struggle, you would therefore have to say that God wants people to continue struggling with sin even though the people are ready to be through with it.

We all carry different sinful inclinations though. I've prayed and have been delivered from some, but others have remained. It's not that God wants me to keep sinning, but the struggle of adversity helps to build character and prevents me from boasting or becoming self-righteous (as Paul also mentioned). Inclinations that tempt us to sin may include things like anger, addictive personality, heightened sexual desires, jealousy, greed/over-spending, etc. Not all off these will go away when the Holy Spirit dwells within us.

We can only speculate about the nature of Paul's thorn, but I think it could have been something like that and still be consistent with God's holiness. Whatever the case, Paul's attitudes are good examples for us.
 
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Eyesee

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The bible should always interpret the Bible and when you look at how the phrase is used in the old testament, you will realise it always refers to people!

Numbers 33:55 NKJV
But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be IRRITANTS IN YOUR EYES AND THORNS IN YOUR SIDES , and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell.

Joshua 23:13 NKJV
know for certain that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and SCOURGES ON YOUR SIDES AND THORNS IN YOUR EYES, until you perish from this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Judges 2:3 NKJV
Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be THORNS IN YOUR SIDE, and their gods shall be a snare to you.'"

Paul's thorn in the flesh was a satanic messenger that stirred up people wherever Paul went to persecute Him. He was the most persecuted of all the apostles!

Freedom from persecution is not part of the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Good point!
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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Given that Paul declared that a messenger of Satan was sent to harrass him, and I, myself, feeling like I am harrassed 24/7 by a particular sin issue that has been with me since early childhood, could the thorn in the flesh be a struggle with sin?

I know that there are those who believe the thorn was an infirmity of such, like his eye sight or speech....but....just thinking out loud here.

If anything, it definelty keeps me glued to the incomprehensible mercy He has, which in turn keeps me humbled, reminding me of teh wretch I was and still can be.

We arent told what Pauls thorn in his flesh was, but, the flesh can be his Human Body, Human Nature , Human fraility, or a reoccuring great struggle of possible sin or temptation . At any rate, he asked God numerous times for it to be taken from him, but, God didnt . We can have such things also ; if God doesnt take it away, then he promises to give us the ability, strength, and wisdom to effectively deal with it while relying on him for grace to get thru it.

So, with yours, keep on relying on Gods grace to deal with it and get with a group of Men where you can share your struggle so they can pray for you and rally around you in your effort to deal with it. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Juelrei

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Given that Paul declared that a messenger of Satan was sent to harrass him, and I, myself, feeling like I am harrassed 24/7 by a particular sin issue that has been with me since early childhood, could the thorn in the flesh be a struggle with sin?

I know that there are those who believe the thorn was an infirmity of such, like his eye sight or speech....but....just thinking out loud here.

If anything, it definelty keeps me glued to the incomprehensible mercy He has, which in turn keeps me humbled, reminding me of teh wretch I was and still can be.
What you describe concerning yourself is a weakness of the flesh.

The thorn of the flesh that Paul referred to was against his ministry, it was not a personal sin tendency that he struggled with.
 
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mandelduke

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Could be. I don't personally believe it was an infirmaty since the Paul clearly says:

[/i]

Could it be a physical ailment? I guess, but it would seem strange that the bible would use "a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan" as a description for a physical ailment - especially when it doesn't use that kind of language anywhere else to describe a physical ailment.

I think if you take what Paul says at face value, a supernatural harrassment of sorts was allowed in Paul's life to keep him from being concieted. If it was to keep him from being concieted, then Paul's problem wasn't physical it was mental (as in being prideful or thinking he was "all that").

Where you have to be careful is thinking that God is causing you to sin to keep you humble -- that's not what Paul is saying and that line of thinking makes God an accomplice of sin. Rather, the focus is on God keeping our pride in check by realizing that without Him, we would be completely lost and therefore we need to depend on Him for everything. We cannot stand on our own.
Excellent post my friend!:thumbsup:
 
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Fireinfolding

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I was looking at this a little while ago again when I noticed something in Job that made me look at Pauls wording too again. In Job, for instance. Job was going through tribulation and a time of temptation (even in respects to a particular temptation) in "the touching of his flesh". We are told to consider "the patience of" Job even as we know that "tribulation worketh" (for us) the same patience.

In one place Satan says to the LORD, touch his flesh (and he will curse you). Now I hadnt picked up on something there (within that scenario) which could be compareable to what Paul was speaking of. Paul speaks of my temptation that is in my flesh (they despised not) which he called an infirmity of the flesh.

So my tempation in my flesh (which was an infirmity of the flesh)

Job being struck in his flesh by Satan (with boils) can be interpreted as Jobs own temptation in his flesh (to curse God)that was touched by Satan (towards that effect).

So just as Paul speaks of an infirmity of the flesh Paul also speaks of being given a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan. Likewise in the gospel there was a woman bound by Satanwith what was called a "spirit of infirmity". The very touching of Jobs flesh was (to Satans intent) to get Job to curse God, thus Paul calling such a thing "My temptation" (which is in my flesh) being an infirmity of the flesh (shown elsewhere as a spirit of infirmity of a woman bound herself (by Satan) would seem to make sense of Paul calling it a thorn in the flesh a messenger of Satan. At least to some extent when looking closely how he seems to speak of same (and where they could be compareable).

I mean, because just as Satan sifted Job (through tribulation and temptations) Jesus shows the same in his disciples, saying one...Simon Simon, Satan desires to have you that He may sift you as wheat. This to the effect of trying of our faith. Jesus (the power of God) by which they are kept has prayed for them, that their faith faileth not.

In Job the touching his flesh had him sit down in the ashes, in Paul, lest he be exalted above measure, and in the woman she could in no wise lift herself up. Just the pictures that are drawn around each of those also.

There seems to be consistencies. Perhaps the showing forth of Gods power made perfect in weakness. Even as Paul speaks of the power of His grace was sufficient in this thing.

Just a thought though, was looking into this myself and doing some comparing in various ways, and seems to be leading me in that direction moreso.
 
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