Weep Over Jerusalem?

[Hammster]

Your not suggesting that Pilot was forced by God's predestination to do something he would not have otherwise have done are you?

Was that a yes or a no answer to griff's question?

 

[guuila]

Your not suggesting that Pilot was forced by God's predestination to do something he would not have otherwise have done are you?

No. Now please answer my question.

 

[Skala]

There is no way that Herod and Pilot did anything that they would not have done if God was not ensuring the outcome. In other words, they were chosen and in the right place at the right time because they would have done it anyway.

If they would have done it anyways, why would God need a positive plan in place such as what came to pass because of His "determinate counsel" and the events "He predestined to occur"

He needn't determine anything or predestine anything if it was going to happen anyways, right?

 

[janxharris]

So God scanned the landscape of fallen humanity looking for some people who were so bad they would murder Jesus, and then chose and predestined them on that basis?

Acts 4:27-30
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

I honestly can't offer an explanation as to how God controls history. It says that, 'They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen'. Perhaps the emphasis is on the predestined death of Jesus rather than the exact detail of by whom.

What is your view? I have always been baffled by this.

 

[janxharris]

If they would have done it anyways, why would God need a positive plan in place such as what came to pass because of His "determinate counsel" and the events "He predestined to occur"

He needn't determine anything or predestine anything if it was going to happen anyways, right?

It's is very difficult to get a handle on this issue. The focus was that Jesus would be crucified.

 

[Hammster]

Acts 4:27-30
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

I honestly can't offer an explanation as to how God controls history. It says that, 'They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen'. Perhaps the emphasis is on the predestined death of Jesus rather than the exact detail of by whom.

What is your view? I have always been baffled by this.

Here's my response.

The text says what it says. Herod and Pilate did what God had planned for them to do. How He did it, we can only speculate. I have an idea, and it's even scripturally based. But to make a definitive declaration would be saying that the only way God could have done it was the way I think it was done. I'm not going there.

 

[guuila]

Here's my response.

The text says what it says. Herod and Pilate did what God had planned for them to do. How He did it, we can only speculate. I have an idea, and it's even scripturally based. But to make a definitive declaration would be saying that the only way God could have done it was the way I think it was done. I'm not going there.

I agree with this. Also, the fact remains that God has given us his revealed will in his word as to how we ought to relate to him and our fellow man, and God also has a secret will which is what actually comes to pass. God allows sin to happen for a purpose, and wills for sin to happen as evidenced by the crucifixion. From the 1689 London Baptist Confession:

God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.

- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Although God knows everything which may or can come to pass under all imaginable conditions, yet He has not decreed anything because He foresaw it in the future, or because it would come to pass under certain conditions.

 

[guuila]

It's is very difficult to get a handle on this issue. The focus was that Jesus would be crucified.

I think the difficulty is mainly emotional, not intellectual. The words on the page are pretty clear. The question is do you believe them or not?

 

[janxharris]

I think the difficulty is mainly emotional, not intellectual. The words on the page are pretty clear. The question is do you believe them or not?

I have no difficulty accepting these verses. Why did you think I did?

 

[Skala]

It's is very difficult to get a handle on this issue. The focus was that Jesus would be crucified.

But was his crucifixion an accident, or was it God's plan and purpose from beginning to end?

I think Acts 4;27-28 answers that question...

What happened to Christ at the hands of wicked men was "whatever God predestined to occur"

Why is it so hard for you to admit that?

 

[guuila]

It's is very difficult to get a handle on this issue.

I have no difficulty accepting these verses. Why did you think I did?

..............

 

[Skala]

I have no difficulty accepting these verses. Why did you think I did?

It seems like you and, for example Arcoe, do have difficulty accepting the verses because you seem to not agree with the idea that God would actually determine something to happen. (haven't you said you were against determinism?)

You say with your lips that you accept the verses, but do you have a qualifier at the end of your affirmation? Will you only accept them if they are understood in a specific way that the text doesn't actually say?

 

[janxharris]

Here's my response.

The text says what it says. Herod and Pilate did what God had planned for them to do. How He did it, we can only speculate. I have an idea, and it's even scripturally based. But to make a definitive declaration would be saying that the only way God could have done it was the way I think it was done. I'm not going there.

Would be interested to hear your view.

Promise I wont call you Shirley and quote John Mcenroe.

 

[guuila]

(haven't you said you were against determinism?)

Correction: They do believe in determinism. However, they prefer human determinism instead of divine determinism. They'd rather a sinful, fallen, corrupted, finite creature do the determining than a holy, righteous, omnipotent, all-wise and sovereign God do it. They say they don't believe in determinism, but they do.

 

[janxharris]

It seems like you and, for example Arcoe, do have difficulty accepting the verses because you seem to not agree with the idea that God would actually determine something to happen. (haven't you said you were against determinism?)

You say with your lips that you accept the verses, but do you have a qualifier at the end of your affirmation? Will you only accept them if they are understood in a specific way that the text doesn't actually say?

I fully accept predestination as long as it does not include one's salvation which God would never do.

I have no problem with the fact that it was predetermined that Jesus would be crucified.

I haven't said in the past that I am against determinism. I think my position would be that some events are determined but some are not.

 

[janxharris]

Correction: They do believe in determinism. However, they prefer human determinism instead of divine determinism. They'd rather a sinful, fallen, corrupted, finite creature do the determining than a holy, righteous, omnipotent, all-wise and sovereign God do it. They say they don't believe in determinism, but they do.

Why so indignant griff?

 

[guuila]

I fully accept predestination as long as it does not include one's salvation which God would never do.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)

Is that not salvation being spoken of?

I have no problem with the fact that it was predetermined that Jesus would be crucified.

Do you have a problem with God determining who would do it?

 

[cygnusx1]

Many accept God is sovereign and determines millions of things , but ask about salvation and its off limits , as if God changes .

 

[guuila]

Many accept God is sovereign and determines millions of things , but ask about salvation and its off limits , as if God changes .

In other words, God can do whatever he wants - as long as I give him permission.

 

[janxharris]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)

Is that not salvation being spoken of?



Do you have a problem with God determining who would do it?

Regarding Ephesians - it was predetermined that Jesus Christ would come and be crucified - it was predetermined that those that would believe would be Holy and blameless and be adopted.

To suggest that God would predetermine who would be saved impugns his good character. I doubt whether you would ever suggest such a thing to a non-believer you were giving the Gospel to.

Tell me, have you ever done such a thing? Yes or no?

Re Pilot - God would not make anyone do anything that they were not already wanting to do.