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When Will Christ Return?
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Regarding "do we add 2000 years to the phrase 'after this'?", no, just as we must not insert the words "two thousand years" before, for example, the word "hereafter" in the actual text of Revelation 4:1b, for we must not add any words to the actual text of Revelation (Revelation 22:18). But in order to interpret Revelation correctly, just as there is a requirement to insert some two thousand years between the time that Revelation was written and the fulfillment of Jesus' future second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so there is a requirement to insert some two thousand years between the time that Revelation was written and the fulfillment of the preceding, never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18.
No, for "After this I looked" (Revelation 4:1) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had been told what to write in the seven letters in Revelation chapters 2-3.
No, for "And after these things I saw" (Revelation 7:1) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had seen a vision of the first six seals in Revelation 6, which have not been fulfilled yet.
Regarding the first seal's horseman, on the white horse (Rev. 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all the nations of the earth & victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Rev. 19:11,13 (cf. Jn. 1:1,14), & his gospel will be preached to all the nations of the earth during the future tribulation (Mt. 24:14, Rev. 14:6). The bow (Rev. 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Lk. 24:47).
The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Rev. 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the coming tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18, which war will, with its aftermath of famines & epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Rev. 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Rev. 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.
The 6th seal (Rev. 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in the future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during the first stage of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Rev. 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood red (Rev. 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Rev. 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Rev. 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Rev. 6:14b).
"And after these things I heard" (Revelation 19:1) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had seen a vision of the eternal destruction of the symbolic Babylon in Revelation 18, which has not been fulfilled yet.
Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Rev. chs. 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Rev. 17:18), economic (Rev. 18:11), and religious (Rev. 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Rev. 18:3), and throughout history (Rev. 17:9-10). The ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Rev. 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Rev. 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Rev. 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Rev. 16:17) of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:2-20:6, Mt. 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isa. 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.
Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his ten kings something like: "Our great battle against the tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Rev. 16:14, 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up our great cities, our magnificent systems. Let us break our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isa. 14:13-14]".
Of course this will be a total lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: Jn. 10:30, Zech. 14:3-4) will completely defeat the armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Rev. 16:14, 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent millennium (Rev. 20:1-6, Isa. 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezek. 36:35, Isa. 51:3). And after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Rev. 21:1). And then God will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Rev. 21:2-4).
Regarding "why 'after this' just doesn't mean the next symbolic sequence in John's sermon", the start of Revelation 7:1 and Revelation 19:1 does place those chapters within the chronological sequence of Revelation chapters 6 to 22, which are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).
Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials/bowls (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials/bowls will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh vial/bowl (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.
Regarding the sequence being "symbolic", Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (for example, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (for example, Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (for example, Daniel 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.
The "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 is different from the "After this" at the start of Revelation 4:1, not in the Greek, but in what they are referring to. For the "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 refers to events that must actually "be", in the sense of actually being performed, sometime in the future, that is, all the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22; whereas the "After this I looked" at the start of Revelation 4:1 refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had been told what to write in the seven letters in Revelation chapters 2-3.
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Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are future because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.
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Futurism does not deny that many Christians in the past/present have gone/are going through terrible tribulations. But neither does futurism deny the fact that no past or present tribulation in the general sense (Acts 14:22, John 16:33, Romans 5:3, Ephesians 3:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:4) has ever fulfilled the highly-detailed and chronological events of the specific tribulation described in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. Also, while Mt. 24:21 refers to the future, worldwide tribulation like has never affected the whole world before, Mt. 24:21 doesn't require that the future tribulation will be worse for every individual than, for example, Job's personal tribulation, or the Jews' tribulation in the Holocaust, or the tribulation of some people in the early church (e.g. Rev. 2:10). For some people in the church will be protected on the earth during the future tribulation (Rev. 12:6,14-16).
No reference has been made to an android Antichrist, but only to a possibly android image of the Antichrist. See the "image" part of post 835.
From the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent second coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some two thousand years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some two thousand years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).
"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand" (Revelation 1:3).
The original Greek word ("tereo", G5083) translated as "keep" in Revelation 1:3 can be used in the sense of obeying commandments (John 14:15). But almost all of Revelation does not consist of commandments, but of prophecies of future events (Revelation 1:1,3, Revelation 22:7) which are not things to be "obeyed". For example, how would believers "obey" the prophecy regarding the weird locust-like beings (Revelation 9:3-11)? Instead, "tereo"/"keep" in Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:7 is used in the sense of holding onto something precious (John 12:7, John 2:10b, John 17:11,12,15, Ephesians 4:3) instead of casting it away as worthless. We are to "keep"/hold onto all of Revelation as being the precious truth, from Jesus to the church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), just as we are to "keep"/hold onto Christian faith itself (2 Timothy 4:7b), even during the worst time for the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
Regarding "this makes the book entirely irrelevant to John's generation", just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians (for all scripture is profitable: 2 Timothy 3:16) despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians, despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future. Also, Christians do not have to experience every literal event in scripture, whether past literal events (for example, Genesis chapters 1-11) or future literal events (for example, Revelation chapters 6 to 18) for every scripture to be profitable to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16).
Futurism considers today's headlines regarding such things as geopolitics and technology, in order to help believers consider different ways for how exactly the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, and almost entirely literal, highly-detailed prophecies in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 might be fulfilled in our future. For example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 6:4-8 refers to a horrible, literal war which will start the tribulation, and which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing a fourth of the world. They could understand this without having to know, for example, what nation will start the war, or what weapons will be employed in the war. All futurism does is consider these things.
For another example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 13:14-15 refers to a literal image (Greek: "eikon", something made in the likeness) of the Antichrist, which will appear to be alive, which will speak, and which people will have to worship or be killed. Christians in the past could understand this without having to know, for example, whether the image will be two-dimensional or three-dimensional (or both), or what it will be made of, or how it will be made to speak and appear to be alive. All futurism does is consider these things.
Parts of Rev. 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).
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Regarding "This is judgement day", Revelation 19:18-21 refers to only the temporal judgment that will occur when Jesus kills only some of the unsaved people who will still be alive at the time of his second coming, just as, for example, when God killed people in Noah's flood, that was only a temporal judgment of only people who were alive at the time of the flood. The eternal judgment of the unsaved (of all times) will not occur until they are all resurrected together at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will not occur until some thousand years after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).
Revelation 19:18's "all" in the original Greek ("pas", G3956) does not have to mean absolutely all, but can mean "all manner of" (cf. Acts 10:12). Revelation 19:18 means that all manner of unsaved people alive at that time, "both free and bond, both small and great", will be killed by Jesus at his second coming. It does not mean that absolutely all people of all times will be killed at the second coming, nor does it mean that absolutely all people who will still be alive at the second coming will be killed at that time. For obedient Christians who are still alive at that time will not be killed (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be changed into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).
And not even all unsaved people alive at that time will be killed at that time, for those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Lk. 17:34-36, Mt. 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zech. 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Rev. 2:26-29, 5:10, 20:4-6, Ps. 2, 66:3, 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39).
Just as the church will be judged at Jesus' 2nd coming (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48, Mt. 25:19-30), so could the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (also an individual man) be judged at that time, before they're cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20). The great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15), which won't occur until over a thousand years later (Rev. 20:4-15), will be for all people not judged at Jesus' 2nd coming.
Rev. 19:21 refers to Jesus at his 2nd coming slaying the remnant of the unsaved armies of the nations gathered to make war against YHWH (Rev. 16:14, 19:19). Some unsaved people won't be in the armies, but will be elsewhere in the world doing harmless things like sleeping in bed (Lk. 17:34), grinding grain (Lk. 17:35), or working in their farm fields (Lk. 17:36). Some of these unsaved people will be left alive at Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt 24:39b-40, Zech. 14:16-19).
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It has not been said that it is.
Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it was not written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (compare 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (compare Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation cannot be almost entirely literal.
Regarding "the vast consensus of biblical scholars AGREEING that this is all apocalyptic symbolism", you will have to provide their specific arguments from the scripture itself.
Also, Revelation can be almost entirely literal because, as scripture, it is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. And nothing about Revelation's language in itself requires that it cannot be almost entirely literal.
Regarding "the repeating, almost self-contradicting nature of the book with all it's 'flash forwards' and 'flash backs'", how has that been shown?
How has it been shown that everything in Revelation is a past Biblical symbol?
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Jesus cannot return physically from heaven anytime he likes, because he must remain in heaven physically until the time of the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21) regarding the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6-7). And this time will not come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
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eclipsenow
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So in order to interpret correctly you DO add 2000 years to the text, even though you DON'T because that would be naughty!
I'm with ya, nudge nudge wink wink say no more! Say no more! What is it like to live in this world where you pretend to be orthodox and straight in your theology, and insist you would never DREAM of inserting text into scripture, but go ahead and do it anyway? 
Oh, there I was thinking this was a literal, detailed timeline? Now it's something you just do what you want with but minus the laws of understanding the actual symbolism at work?
The verse just says:
Rev 4
4 After this I looked, and there in front of me was a door standing open in heaven. I heard the voice I had heard before. It sounded like a trumpet. The voice said, Come up here. I will show you what must happen after this.
It's EXACTLY THE SAME AS ALL THE OTHER 'AFTER THIS'S'.
Rev 7
After this I saw four angels.
Rev 7:9
After this I looked
Rev 15:5
After this I looked
Rev 18
After these things I saw another angel
Rev 19
After these things I heard a roar in heaven.
It just means the NEXT BIT IN THE STORY!
So, you're the champion of reading all of this literally: why don't you explain how you 'literally' add 2000 years to the text at ONE point, but not at another? You haven't really done a good job of this so far. There is nothing really all that different between the various uses of 'after this'. They just denote the next stage in the unfolding story of John's symbolic sermon. There's nothing 'literal' in this book at all!
You're just making this up as you go along. The term is the same in each chapter, and yet you're trying to make it belong to previous instances so that you don't have to add another 2000 years! That's a JOKE! I could just respond that, at whatever instance you CHOOSE to add 2000 years, that you can't do that because it actually belongs to the things that came before in Chapter 1 where John INSISTS it is all about stuff that was 'soon', for 'the time was near'!
The truth is you just do whatever you want to this book, despite hypocritically claiming to read it 'literally'.
Not at all. For YOU said the phrase 'after this' is attached to the previous things John was writing about. So... why is Chapter 6's use of 'after this' any different to all the other chapters I've listed above?
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eclipsenow
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Oh yeah, that's a HUGE distinction there and really saves your work from the looney bin!
FAIL! Historical sources tell us that there were at least 10 major churches in that specific region, so John's use of Seven is symbolic, as it is so often in the bible. Did you know that the very first verse of the bible only has seven Hebrew words, and that the next verse has 14 words (a multiple of 7), and that there are all manner of other multiples of the number 7? How many candles are on a Jewish candelabra? How many horns and eyes did the slain lamb of God have? How many times do you have to be told this is SYMBOLIC!
That is correct.
That is completely irrelevant: John tells us HE wrote his WHOLE MESSAGE for his generation to hear and obey!
Rev 22
18I am warning everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If you add anything to them, God will add to you the plagues told about in this book. 19 If you take any words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from you your share in the tree of life. He will also take away your place in the Holy City. This book tells about these things.
20 He who gives witness to these things says, “Yes. I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21 May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
It is prophecy: the declaration of God's word. Prophecy does NOT have to entail future-telling, as many Old Testament prophets called people back to the existing law and word of God at the time.
Check chapter 1 again:
3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy. Blessed are those who hear it and think everything it says is important. The time when these things will come true is near.
"These things" is the same phrase Jesus used to describe the abomination that caused the desolation of Israel, the terrible slaughter of 1.1 million Jews, destruction of the temple and their spiritual way of life the sacrificial system, and the very end of the nation of Israel.
"These things" describes the REST OF THE BOOK, the terrible tribulation that Christians have endured for 2000 years (and that you continue to patronise because you insist they've had nothing compared to the even worse tribulation in the future!)
The simple fact is that John describes a variety of situations in which Christians can be tempted to throw in the towel, but presents the gospel hope of Jesus final victory in a NUMBER of chapters to keep us going! It's our encouragement.
Absolutely NONE of it is 'literal'. The FACT of Jesus eventual return is described in a number of completely conflicting images and symbols that CANNOT be literally true at the same time.
The viewpoint of God described in Revelation is not a literal timeline or bunch of 'future telling' but the eternal safety of the saints in heaven. That is the gospel hope we are to hold on to. Your insisting this stuff is a literal timeline is just plain wrong.
Do you realise how COMPLETELY you've just contradicted yourself here mate? To be 'literal' means to be absolutely confined to truth telling in the driest, most sensible, rational possible narrative, following ALL the rules of normal language. Then you go and insist that "it is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general". But being literal is to be the MOST 'bound by man-made categories for writing in general'. It is to communicate with the strictest truth telling prose possible.
So which is it? Bound by the rules of literal convention and truth telling clear language, or not bound by the rules of man-made categories of language, so that one can write MUFFFAMBO and WHATUSI margushi wooshi wooo and it's language worthy of Revelation? Which is it? Literal, or poetic? Historical narrative, or biography? Symbolic, or factual? What kind of writing is it? And anyway, WHO SAID that Scripture is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general? WHO SAID THAT? What is their proof? It seems to go against the very commands of God through Paul in 1 Corinthians 14.
Language, here, is to BE BOUND by the norms of the group! Absolutely bound! It IS the biblical command for communication so that the gospel can go forward!!!!
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
I've shown it. Go back and read my posts for once.
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No, in order to interpret Revelation correctly nothing has been added, or ever needs to be added, to the text itself.
Regarding "literal", Revelation is almost entirely literal, for the reasons given in the "Revelation is almost entirely literal" part of post 842.
Regarding "detailed", Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are a highly-detailed, almost entirely literal future timeline. For they contain such a huge number of details, which are so varied, so specific, so chronological, and so long, that to reduce all of them to merely a general description of life at anytime renders them utterly useless. For what person who has ever lived needs a general description of life? It's like throwing Revelation chapters 6 to 22 in the trash, just to be done with them.
Regarding "timeline", Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are a timeline, for the reasons given in "the chronological sequence of Revelation chapters 6 to 22" part of post 842.
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).
The "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 is different from the "After this" at the start of Revelation 4:1, not in the Greek, but in what they are referring to. For the "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 refers to events that must actually "be", in the sense of actually being performed, sometime in the future, that is, all the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22; whereas the "After this I looked" at the start of Revelation 4:1 refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had been told what to write in the seven letters in Revelation chapters 2-3.
"And after these things I saw" (Revelation 7:1) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had seen a vision of the first six seals in Revelation 6, which have not been fulfilled yet.
"After this I beheld" (Revelation 7:9) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had seen a vision of the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:1-8, which has not been fulfilled yet.
The 144,000 will be Christians (Rev. 14:1,4), and so they will be part of the church (cf. Eph. 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Rev. 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Num. 18:12). They will be male virgins (Rev. 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Rev. 7:3, cf. Rom. 6:22, Phil. 1:1), by the time of Rev. 7:3-8 (during the first stage of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24). They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thes. 2:1-8, Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6).
The 144,000 can include both Jews & Gentiles in the church, for all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Rom. 11:1, Acts 4:36), & all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29), & so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezek. 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:9,12). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray & ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, & he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Mt. 21:22), without any wavering (cf. Jas. 1:6-7).
Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).
The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Rev. 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Num. 1:32, Ps. 78:67, Ezek. 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes which include Dan (Gen. 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Rom. 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Rom. 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Rom. 9:24).
"And after that I looked" (Revelation 15:5) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had seen a vision of Christian martyrs of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) singing in heaven in Revelation 15:2-4, which has not been fulfilled yet.
"And after these things I saw" (Revelation 18:1) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had seen a vision of a symbolic harlot "Babylon" and the beast in its empire aspect in Revelation 17, much of which has not been fulfilled yet.
"And after these things I heard" (Revelation 19:1) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had seen a vision of the eternal destruction of the symbolic Babylon in Revelation 18, which has not been fulfilled yet.
The initial phrases of, for example, Revelation 7:1, Revelation 15:5, and Revelation 19:1, do serve to place those chapters within the chronological sequence of Revelation chapters 6 to 22.
Nothing has been added to the text itself at any point.
But in order to interpret Revelation correctly, just as there is a requirement to insert some two thousand years between the time that Revelation was written and the fulfillment of Jesus' future second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so there is a requirement to insert some two thousand years between the time that Revelation was written and the fulfillment of the preceding, never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18.
From the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent second coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some two thousand years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some two thousand years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).
There is no "after this" in Revelation 6. Did you mean Revelation 4 instead? If so, as was pointed out earlier, the "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 is different from the "After this" at the start of Revelation 4:1 (and at the start of some other chapters), not in the Greek, but in what they are referring to. For the "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 refers to events that must actually "be", in the sense of actually being performed, sometime in the future, that is, all the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22; whereas the "After this I looked" at the start of Revelation 4:1 refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had been told what to write in the seven letters in Revelation chapters 2-3.
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How has the idea of a possibly android image of the Antichrist been shown to be looney?
The original Greek word (eikon, G1504) translated as the "image" of the beast (Revelation 13:15) means something made in the likeness of something else, such as the image of a man engraved on a coin (Luke 20:24). So an android made in the likeness of the Antichrist could be referred to in the Greek as being an "eikon" of the Antichrist.
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What were the other three churches?
Also, the seven can be literal because they could refer to only those seven who sent messengers to John on Patmos.
For the "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).
Any symbolic uses of seven in the Bible do not require that all uses of seven in the Bible are symbolic. For example, just as the seven deacons in Acts 6:3-6 were literally seven people, so the seven churches in Revelation 1:11 were literally seven churches.
Regarding "to hear and obey", are you referring to Revelation 1:3:
"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand" (Revelation 1:3)?
If so, the original Greek word ("tereo", G5083) translated as "keep" in Revelation 1:3 can be used in the sense of obeying commandments (John 14:15). But almost all of Revelation does not consist of commandments, but of prophecies of future events (Revelation 1:1,3, Revelation 22:7) which are not things to be "obeyed". For example, how would believers "obey" the prophecy regarding the weird locust-like beings (Revelation 9:3-11)? Instead, "tereo"/"keep" in Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:7 is used in the sense of holding onto something precious (John 12:7, John 2:10b, John 17:11,12,15, Ephesians 4:3) instead of casting it away as worthless. We are to "keep"/hold onto all of Revelation as being the precious truth, from Jesus to the church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), just as we are to "keep"/hold onto Christian faith itself (2 Timothy 4:7b), even during the worst time for the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
Are you saying that John says Revelation 22:18? If so, it is Jesus who says that (Revelation 22:16-20a).
The prophecies of Revelation do entail future-telling, for Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.
Regarding "'These things' is the same phrase Jesus used to describe the abomination", are you referring to Matthew 24:34?
If so, Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' second coming and gathering together (rapture) of the church immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1 Thes. 4:15-17), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, second coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.
Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD re-establishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and second coming of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until seventy or eighty years (Ps. 90:10), or a hundred and twenty years (Gen. 6:3).
This doesn't require that the second coming will occur right before, like one year, before that generation will pass: that is, sixty-nine, or seventy-nine, or a hundred and nineteen years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the second coming and rapture (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6) will last seven years (Dan. 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (for example, 2020) earlier than 2021.
Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Mt. 24:22, Lk. 16:8b, Col. 3:12, 1 Thes. 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Mt. 24:22) until Jesus' second coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17; 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53) immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7 to 20:6).
Regarding "the abomination", are you referring to Matthew 24:15?
If so, that has not been fulfilled yet, for the abomination of desolation has to do with something (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) being placed standing in the specific "holy place" (that is, the inner sanctum) part of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), shortly before the Antichrist himself sits there and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).
Regarding "the very end of the nation of Israel", the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 re-establishment of Israel (after the terrible slaughter of six million Jews in World War II), just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was re-established in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming, for it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel's merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit.
Also, the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was re-established in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed before Jesus' second coming by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed back in 70 AD by a Roman army.
Regarding "destruction of the temple", are you referring to Matthew 24:1-2?
If so, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the second temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Mt. 24:2, for the stones of the second temple complex's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Mt. 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Mt. 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single second temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire second temple complex (Mt. 24:1). Indeed, Mt. 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Mt. 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the Dec. 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).
Also, Matthew 24:2's "here" can include not just the entire second temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Futurism does not deny that many Christians in the past/present have gone/are going through terrible tribulations. But neither does futurism deny the fact that no past or present tribulation in the general sense (Acts 14:22, John 16:33, Romans 5:3, Ephesians 3:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:4) has ever fulfilled the highly-detailed and chronological events of the specific tribulation described in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. Also, while Mt. 24:21 refers to the future, worldwide tribulation like has never affected the whole world before, Mt. 24:21 doesn't require that the future tribulation will be worse for every individual than, for example, Job's personal tribulation, or the Jews' tribulation in the Holocaust, or the tribulation of some people in the early church (e.g. Rev. 2:10). For some people in the church will be protected on the earth during the future tribulation (Rev. 12:6,14-16).
Regarding "completely conflicting images and symbols", what are these?
But Revelation is not bound by literalism, for not all of it is literal. Similarly, it is not bound by symbolism, for not all of it is symbolic.
For example, parts of Rev. 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).
Scripture.
The book of Revelation is a revelation from Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:1); it is the testimony of his angel to the church (Revelation 22:16).
Who said that it is?
How?
The passage you quoted simply means that everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so he can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).
With regard to Revelation, its original Greek has been interpreted into many different languages, so that it can be understood by believers in many different nations. And just as with its original Greek, so with its translations, nothing in the language of Revelation itself requires that it cannot be almost entirely literal.
Also, as you pointed out, the rules of 1 Corinthians 14 are not man-made ideas (1 Corinthians 14:37).
Also, the basic principle of 1 Corinthians 14, of making messages from God understandable to people, would support the idea of God's message in Revelation being almost entirely literal, instead of it consisting entirely of mysterious symbols.
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eclipsenow
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No, YOU'VE thrown it in the trash for all generations prior to the generation the book is actually ABOUT and TO! For example, what use is a zombie-apocalypse survival guide if I'm never going to face a zombie apocalypse? What use is a desert survival manual to someone who will NEVER, in their entire lives, go to the desert? What use is an antichrist survival and encouragement guide to a Christian living thousands of years before the antichrist? Ho hum, boring, it's not to me or about me; it's to them instead... I won't bother with that book.
I NEVER said Revelation was just a 'general description of life now' was a final summary of the book. If you read what I had to say in context, I've been saying that each vision-sequence is chock full of biblical symbols that preach a sermon to all Christians in all ages! Asking how that his helpful is as obtuse as asking how 1 Corinthians is helpful today? Well? It was Paul's letter written to the Corinthian church, so why is it of any use to me? It sets up principles and instructions for dealing with many different subjects and challenges and problems. It teaches us about order in church, authority, gifts, service, love. Some Partial Preterists read less biblical symbolism than I do, and more descriptions of Roman persecution of the church. For instance, those insect like things you think are aliens could possibly be Roman soldiers in head-dress. The point is that, whether symbolic or historical, symbolic or Partial Preterist, Revelation is describing situations that apply to all ages.
But if you throw it off into the future, and make it about things that no one but that generation can possibly experience, then it's no good to me. I can get the general message that Jesus will return one day from other parts of the bible. It may as well be thrown in the bin, because you've made it ALL about SPECIFIC things that simply may not happen in my lifetime. Just as Marantha has his set of futurist video's that he believes will happen in 4 days, you seem to have your own version of futurist fairy-dust sprinkled across android images of the antichrist and aliens. I'm not interested! I ignore most of your 'details' about Revelation because I know they all come from the wrong presuppositions and assumptions.
The 'hereafter' is just a version of the English that you are quoting.
There is nothing different about it, and no reason to add 2000 years. "What must happen after this..." Is simply the angel telling John the rest of the message is about to progress, and then we see John introducing the next chunk, and the next chunk, and the next chunk as he uses the same term through the rest of the book. "After this..." again and again. There is no place to add 2000 years.
Except android antichrists, aliens, and anything else that grabs your fancy from science fiction. Other than that, it's all biblical. Honest!
:o 
You know what? How about I just get a copy and paste answer system like yours and EVERY time you post your verbatim answer I'll just repost mine, and we'll see who dies of old age first? That would be a great conversation!
Because I thought you were suggesting that this was something the early church could understand and obey.
I've asked you this before: show me where an early church father actually uses the word android and understands what one was?
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eclipsenow
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Dr Paul Barnett taught history at Macquarie University, Sydney for many years, and was also a Bishop of North Sydney and ran historical tours of the bible lands. He wrote Revelation: Apocalypse Now and Then. ON page 9 he says:
Also, the seven can be literal because they could refer to only those seven who sent messengers to John on Patmos.
f
You know what? How about I just get a copy and paste answer system like yours and EVERY time you post your verbatim answer I'll just repost mine, and we'll see who dies of old age first? That would be a great conversation!
(In other words, we've been here before Pal and you've used this argument about 20 times before. I've responded before by accusing you of dodging the question and using a circular argument: you want Revelation to be literal so it actually describes some impossible to decipher future event/s, and because you require it to be literal you FIGHT against actually reading the word 'obey' literally! There's the irony for you. You CANNOT live by your own hermeneutic. You contradict yourself all the time. It's as if you're saying "Revelation is LITERAL, I tell you, so we're just going to ignore the word 'obey' here because otherwise ... it ... might ... not ... be a series of future timetables, but an actual sermon."
Each chapter has a point of encouragement or rebuke or warning or discipline for Christian believers. I don't have time to go into the specific message of each chapter, but I've read fantastic applications that are heart-warming and very encouraging from EVERY chapter of the book of Revelation! This book is ALIVE, and is written directly to you and I and every Christian who has ever lived. It's our marching orders. It's exciting, and frightening, and bold.
And you would reduce it to feel like reading a train timetable: one that might be implemented in a decade or so. Or not. Depending on which futurists we listen to.
And then, after dozens of failed prophecies, we go on to the NEXT futurist prophecy conference. And the NEXT one. The date is about to click past 22nd March. Will Israel be flooded, invaded, and / or have millions of refugees as predicted but many futurists? March 22! Are you hearing how silly your lot sound?
Why are we to keep it as precious if it's not to me or about me or helpful to me in my walk? Yes Jesus will return one day, I get that from other bits of the bible. But why do I need to know all the train-timetable-details? It doesn't help me because no futurist can ever agree on when what is going to happen, and which order, and who is who!
You know what? How about I just get a copy and paste answer system like yours and EVERY time you post your verbatim answer I'll just repost mine, and we'll see who dies of old age first? That would be a great conversation!
The Olivet discourse is tricky because it discusses a number of things, and I even think when Jesus mentions the temple being destroyed we are to remember what he wrote earlier on about his BODY being the temple. The gospel itself is in the background here.
But how does AD70 and the Return of Jesus separate out in the Olivet discourse?
In verse 2 Jesus says "These things" describing the destruction of the temple in AD70. It's the same phrase he uses in verse 33. "So also, when you see all *these things*, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
At the very gates. That's Titus. Titus we can anticipate. Titus we can flee from. Titus we can know.
The only reason some might be confused and place this chapter near the end is because Jesus *does* compare the false messiah's with his universal, inescapable, glorious return. That's verses 23-31, comparing Jesus very real, very unmistakable return with that of the false promises of false Messiahs. 31 talks about the end of the world, a subject the disciples had just asked about!
But in verse 32 we are suddenly back to then, to the imminent and *predictable* destruction of the temple and the need for Christians to get out of Jerusalem.
32 From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
In other words, when you see the Romans coming, get out of town! But when Jesus returns what can you do? Nothing. It's inescapable and everywhere.
But the end of the world? 'That day'? Instead of being like AD70, like Titus, predictable, local, escapable that day is unpredictable, unknowable, and utterly inescapable.
36 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
You have an almost autistic focus on the retaining wall OUTSIDE and AWAY from the temple buildings themselves, which WERE destroyed in AD70 as 1.1 million Jews were slaughtered and the sacrifice was laid desolate and the nation was split up!
Don't twist the greek! Read Luke 21 again. The word in Luke says TEMPLE, doesn't it!
Yeah, just clip your ruby slippers together 3 times and maybe it will be so.
The book of Revelation is a revelation from Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:1); it is the testimony of his angel to the church (Revelation 22:16).
OK, now you're geniunely weirding me out! YOU said it! And I quote:
That's your standard copy and paste every time this subject comes up. You contradict yourself as you write this. Here's my copy and paste again, just to remind you of the inadequacy and vacuous nature of your reply above... "Who said that it is?" as you try to dodge the worst excesses or your self-contradiction.
Do you realise how COMPLETELY you've just contradicted yourself here mate? To be 'literal' means to be absolutely confined to truth telling in the driest, most sensible, rational possible narrative, following ALL the rules of normal language. Then you go and insist that "it is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general". But being literal is to be the MOST 'bound by man-made categories for writing in general'. It is to communicate with the strictest truth telling prose possible.
So which is it? Bound by the rules of literal convention and truth telling clear language, or not bound by the rules of man-made categories of language, so that one can write MUFFFAMBO and WHATUSI margushi wooshi wooo and it's language worthy of Revelation? Which is it? Literal, or poetic? Historical narrative, or biography? Symbolic, or factual? What kind of writing is it? And anyway, WHO SAID that Scripture is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general? WHO SAID THAT? What is their proof? It seems to go against the very commands of God through Paul in 1 Corinthians 14.
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Futurism has not thrown Revelation chapters 6 to 22 in the trash for any generation. For just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians (for all scripture is profitable: 2 Timothy 3:16) despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians, despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.
Also, Christians do not have to experience every literal event in scripture, whether past literal events (for example, Genesis chapters 1-11) or future literal events (for example, Revelation chapters 6 to 18) for every scripture to be profitable to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16).
Regarding "chock full of biblical symbols", what Biblical symbols are you referring to? Also, as has been shown, Revelation is in fact almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (for example, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (for example, Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (for example, Daniel 7:4-7,17).
Just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.
The weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, and the subsequent army of two hundred million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19 could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", when in fact they could both have evolved (at different times) on this planet millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). They will not kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).
Regarding "There is nothing different about it", that's right, with regard to the Greek words used, just as it was said that:
"The 'hereafter' at the end of Revelation 4:1 is different from the 'After this' at the start of Revelation 4:1, not in the Greek, but in what they are referring to".
Regarding "There is nothing different about it", the 'hereafter' at the end of Revelation 4:1 is different from the 'After this' at the start of Revelation 4:1 (and at the start of some other chapters) insofar as what it is referring to. For the "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 refers to events that must actually "be", in the sense of actually being performed, sometime in the future, that is, all the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22; whereas the "After this I looked" at the start of Revelation 4:1 refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had been told what to write in the seven letters in Revelation chapters 2-3.
Regarding "no reason to add 2000 years", we must not add the words "two thousand years" before the word "hereafter" in the actual text of Revelation 4:1b, for we must not add any words to the actual text of Revelation (Revelation 22:18). But in order to interpret Revelation correctly, just as there is a requirement to insert some two thousand years between the time that Revelation was written and the fulfillment of Jesus' future second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so there is a requirement to insert some two thousand years between the time that Revelation was written and the fulfillment of the preceding, never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18.
Regarding "android antichrists", no reference has been made to that. What has been referred to is the possibility of the image of the Antichrist being an android. For the original Greek word (eikon, G1504) translated as the "image" of the beast (Revelation 13:15) means something made in the likeness of something else, such as the image of a man engraved on a coin (Luke 20:24). So an android made in the likeness of the Antichrist could be referred to in the Greek as being an "eikon" of the Antichrist.
Regarding "aliens", the universe is so vast (with something like 100 billion different galaxies, each containing something like 100 billion different stars) that even if only one star out of every ten billion stars has a planet with intelligent life on it, this would still mean that there are a trillion inhabited planets. This would be to the great glory of God, for he's the Creator of everything (Rev. 4:11). God could deal with intelligent life on other planets in the same way he deals with us: some individuals could go to a heaven when they die, while others could go to a hell. Or, the intelligent life on some other planets may have never fallen into sin, like Adam & Eve did, so that the intelligent life on those planets never became mortal. Any such unfallen, intelligent life could be living in sinless, immortal bliss on their planets like Adam & Eve did in the Garden of Eden before their fall. Also, ultimately, the destiny of saved people on this planet isn't to live forever in heaven like ghosts strumming harps on clouds, but to live forever in resurrected, immortal, physical bodies (1 Cor. 15:52-53, Rom. 8:23-25, Philip. 3:21, Lk. 24:39) on a new earth with God (Rev. 21).
Some people feel aliens can't exist because the Bible makes no mention of them. But not everything that exists has to be mentioned in the Bible (cf. Jn. 21:25). For example, the Bible makes no mention of Velcro, yet it exists. And the Bible makes no mention of the fact the earth orbits the sun, & not vice versa as many Bible believers mistakenly assumed for centuries. Such believers even mistakenly claimed the heliocentric system was a lie which was against the revealed knowledge of God in the Bible that the sun orbits the earth. Of course, the truth is nothing in the Bible requires a geocentric system. Similarly, nothing in the Bible requires aliens can't exist. Also, the argument that other inhabited planets can't exist because if they did the Bible would have told us about them, is like someone in the 1300's in Europe saying: "Other inhabited continents can't exist besides the ones in the Bible: Europe, Africa, and Asia. For if other inhabited continents did exist the Bible would have told us about them". Of course, the truth is the Bible made no mention of the other inhabited continents of North America, South America, & Australia, & yet they existed. Similarly, even though the Bible makes no mention of other inhabited planets, they could exist.
Some people feel we mustn't believe in the existence of aliens, for then we could be deceived by entities (such as Satan & other fallen angelic beings) claiming to be aliens. But the existence of aliens doesn't require all aliens must be good, just as the existence of angels doesn't require all angels must be good. We would have to evaluate the goodness of any alien in the same way we would have to evaluate the goodness of any angel: by the doctrine he teaches (Gal. 1:8), by his faithfulness to God's Word the Bible (2 Tim. 4:2-4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Jn. 8:31b, Mt. 4:4), by his obedience to YHWH God (Mk. 12:29-31, Deut. 6:4-5, Lev. 19:18b). Also, the Bible doesn't say Satan appears as a good alien, but it does say he can appear as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). So worrying about being deceived only by "aliens" is a dangerous distraction. We need to be careful of being deceived even by angels of light.
If the specific aliens some people claim to have had contact with (such as "the Greys") truly exist, they could be fallen angels or demons. Or they could be real aliens in the sense of material beings from some other star system. Or, if interstellar travel is physically impossible because of the practical limits which special relativity places on how fast matter can travel, they could be material beings from our own solar system who evolved (by God's created process of evolution) or were miraculously created by God long before humans, whether on this planet, or on the 2nd or the 4th planet from the sun, in some past eon when either or both of those planets was inhabitable.
None uses the word android, nor did they have to understand what one was. But Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 13:14-15 refers to a literal image (Greek: "eikon", something made in the likeness) of the Antichrist, which will appear to be alive, which will speak, and which people will have to worship or be killed. Christians in the past could understand this without having to know, for example, whether the image will be two-dimensional or three-dimensional (or both), or what it will be made of, or how it will be made to speak and appear to be alive. All futurism does is consider these things. And one possibility is that it could be an android.
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How many more? And in what cities were they located?
The original Greek word sometimes translated as obey has not been ignored, but discussed in detail. And the Greek word in no way requires that Revelation cannot be almost entirely literal, for the reasons given in the "obey" part of post 848.
The Bible gives believers clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mk. 13:23, Rev. chs. 6-18, 1:3, 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Pet. 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Mt. 24:4-5,23-25, Rev. 13:13-18, 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6).
That's like an unbeliever saying that the Bible can't help him because believers can't agree on what it means.
Regarding "when what is going to happen", Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD re-establishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and second coming of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until seventy or eighty years (Ps. 90:10), or a hundred and twenty years (Gen. 6:3).
This doesn't require that the second coming will occur right before, like one year, before that generation will pass: that is, sixty-nine, or seventy-nine, or a hundred and nineteen years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the second coming and rapture (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6) will last seven years (Dan. 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (for example, 2020) earlier than 2021.
Regarding "and which order", Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).
Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials/bowls (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials/bowls will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh vial/bowl (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.
Regarding "who is who", can you give some examples of what you mean?
How are we to connect the two?
The ultimate temple will be the Trinity itself on the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, which contains no temple building (Rev. 21:22). Jesus' individual human body is already a temple of God (Jn. 2:21), and at the time of his first coming, his body-temple coexisted with the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem, which was also indwelt by God at the same time (Mt. 23:21). And his body-temple also coexisted (and still coexists today) with the literal temple building in heaven (Rev. 11:19). There's now also the church-as-a-whole figurative temple building (Eph. 2:21), and the myriad different temples of every Christian's individual human body (1 Cor. 6:19). There will also be a 3rd, earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future tribulation (Rev. 11:1-2, Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36, 2 Thes. 2:4), and also a 4th earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future millennium (Zech. 14:20-21), which won't begin until after Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21).
In Matthew 24:34 "all these things" refers to all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' second coming and gathering together (rapture) of the church immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1 Thes. 4:15-17), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, second coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.
Mt. 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the context of Mt. 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?
Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).
In Luke 21, the original Greek word (hieron, G2411) translated as "temple" can refer to "the entire precincts" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the temple's Wailing Wall.
No, the opposite has been said. What was meant by the question "Who said that it is?" was who said that scripture is bound by man-made ideas regarding made-made categories for writings in general?
Revelation is not bound by literalism, for not all of it is literal. Similarly, it is not bound by symbolism, for not all of it is symbolic.
For example, parts of Rev. 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).
It doesn't, for the reasons given in the last part of post 848.
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Yeah, you've said all that 100 times. Well, you didn't say it, you typed it once and then copied it at me 100 times. Just quoting 2 Timothy 3:16 at me does not demonstrate HOW a futurist-Revelation is relevant to me! It simply ISN'T! I know you need to repeat 'almost entirely literally' at me as many times as you need to, because you're so insecure about it actually being SYMBOLIC, but your repetitive, Rain-man like behaviour doesn't convince anyone.
HOW is it helpful to me if it isn't about me or to me? I'm telling you buddy, I was saved by Jesus death 2000 years ago. THAT is a big deal. I know that one day, quite unannounced and unanticipated, Jesus will return. THAT is a big deal. But all the details and suffering of people in the last 10 years prior to Jesus return? Excuse me, but BORING if it doesn't happen to be my generation it's describing! I could care less. I sometimes get bored watching the News. What do I care if this invasion happens then that guy does something then an Android sings Bett Midler songs until people's ears bleed and they give into the Abomination that Causes Desolation simply to get some relief! What do I care about all your pedantic, boring, autistic levels of detail about the last 10 years of human history if I'm not in it?
I could care less. I'm saved. Jesus, God's infinite son, died for me. I've experienced quite terrible suffering as a result of a family illness, I've experienced churches where people have helped me incredibly and encouraged my faith, churches where people have used and abused me terribly, churches where the teaching has been whacko (in my youth) and churches were sound, expository, bible based teaching has been incredibly uplifting and challenging. These are the daily struggles of a Christian. I just don't have TIME to memorise, Asperger's like, a bunch of mind-numbing details about this or that which might (or might not!) occur in the next 20 or 30 or 50 years. WHO CARES!
But if it's a theological book of incredibly powerful symbols making sermons I'll never forget, sermons that help me when persecuted and tempted, sermons that show me the horror and terrible beauty of the Gospel to all suffering Christians across ALL the Last Days, then I'm hooked!
So, basically, dude, if you want to prove to me how Rev 6-22 actually helps me, why don't you actually answer the question instead of shoving 2 Tim 3:16 down my throat as if that means you've proved your lazy and ignorant literalistic hermeneutic is actually the right one! It's not! It's really ignorant because you stubbornly insist on clinging to a literal reading of Revelation when the vast majority of serious evangelical reformed bible scholars recognise the biblical symbolism and gospel sermon that it really is.
The past events are there for our instruction, for explaining how the most important event in history, the gospel of Jesus Christ, unfolds. MY reading of Revelation makes sense in the context of that gospel! Your reading of Revelation COMPETES FOR ATTENTION! It says, "Don't look so much at what Jesus did back on the cross, why not focus on ALL THESE THOUSANDS OF DETAILS about android antichrists and blah blah!" My reading of Revelation is that it is the gospel writ large in symbols. I love it. It's encouraging, and threatening, and rebuking.
Your reading is a boring train timetable. Why even bother reading Revelation, as you just insert what you want over the top? Go and get a Current Affairs Diploma and write an essay on the Middle East or something. It'll do you as much good.
Android Shmandroid.
What do the beasts horns mean? Are they literal horns?
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eclipsenow
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I quoted Dr Paul Barnett, a very godly bible scholar and professional historian. I doubt you have an ounce of his credentials, so you can cut your petty interrogation method. I've met him and know his family. They're all great and godly people. So cut the rubbish and just accept something a scholar says for once. If you really need to, go read a history of the early church or something!
Except that the words turn into sentences and paragraphs and become immediately recognisable as a GENRE of literature. So how do we recognise GENRE's, hey dude?
No, it DOESN'T spell out a bunch of details totally irrelevant to thousands of years of church history except some last generation! That's whacko.
Give me a break! Life blindsides us all the time if we let it. Talking on this FORUM blindsides me when I find out how low biblical preaching has become across the world, and especially in America. (Like Android images of the Antichrist: give me a break! )
Oh yeah, got a decade or even year in mind? Hmmmmm?
It's like saying you FUTURISTS are notoriously disagreed on this book, and us Covenant Amils are much more aligned.
Nah, that's the church, god's REAL kingdom now!
Nah, the AoD happened in AD70, retaining wall or no retaining wall. Wailing Wall Sschmailing schmall.
God did. God made the world and made us in his image, about to think, to relate, to use words. God brought his animals before Adam to see what he would name them. God spoke to Abram, God's son is called "The Word" as he is incarnate into this world (John 1). God speaks. He is not silent. God's word goes out into all generations and does not return empty. Speaking and writing God's message means using language forms in an understandable way. See 1 Corinthians 14. It is NOT berrgle whoompy dompty, but disciplined communication in recognisable words that Paul admires. Everything is to be done in order, not flergleybootkins.
God also uses the personality of the author. John writes in beautiful symbols in all his books, from the gospel and letters to Revelation. Jesus is not a lamp! He really isn't. Yet John calls him the light of the world, and uses that symbol to make points about those who live in the darkness. (John 1). God has made his kingdom grow through us and our words and our personalities.
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Why not?
The future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 should be relevant to every Christian, regardless of whether or not he thinks he will still be alive to go through it, just as the past fulfillment of, for example, Genesis chapters 1 to 11, should be relevant to every Christian, regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is relevant to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).
Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at that time will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16), is so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
How has it been shown to be symbolic, in the sense of it being entirely symbolic?
Also, why would anyone be insecure about a mere symbol, rather than being insecure about something that's real and literal?
Also, we can know that Revelation is almost entirely literal because of the reasons given in the "Revelation is in fact almost entirely literal" part of post 851.
How has the literalistic hermeneutic been shown to be lazy or ignorant?
Regarding the scholars you're referring to, you will need to provide their specific arguments based on the scriptures themselves (compare Isaiah 8:20b), and not on any man-made ideas (compare 1 Corinthians 1:20).
All the details of Revelation in no way compete with the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as, for example, all the (much more numerous) details of the Old Testament in no way compete with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Indeed, all the details in Revelation are a revelation from Jesus Christ himself (Revelation 1:1); they are all the testimony of his angel to the church (Revelation 22:16).
The horns aren't literal, but they are specific to certain, individual people who will be on the world stage in our future.
For the beast which comes up out of the earth (Rev. 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 16:13). He could be a (secretly apostate) pope who will begin his tenure by making a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"
He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Rev. 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Rev. 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Rev. 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 Jn. 2:22, 2 Jn. 1:7.)
The 10 horns/kings of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Rev. 13:1, 17:3,12) could be 10 men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, which could be the 10 horns in Dan. 7:24.
For Dan. 7's first three beasts (Dan. 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And Dan. 7's fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Dan. 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman Empire. And the ten horns/kings which come out of it (Dan. 7:7,24) could represent ten major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman Empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These ten nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The ten part-iron/part-clay toes of Dan. 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Dan. 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Dan. 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.
But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation (Dan. 2:42 refers to the ten as a singular "kingdom"). The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Dan. 7:8, 8:9), which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Dan. 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the ten major nations (Dan. 7:8) could mean the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman Empire. And before that, it was part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Dan. 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezek. 28:2, 2 Thes. 2:4).
The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of three of the ten major nations (Dan. 7:24): Egypt ("toward the south" of Lebanon: Dan. 8:9), Iraq and Syria ("toward the east" of Lebanon: Dan. 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine (i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land": Dan. 8:9). This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Dan. 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Dan. 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control over all ten of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Rev. 17:12) who will defer to him (Rev. 17:13), like, for example, when Napoleon gained control over different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.
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How have the questions asked been shown to be rubbish?
Why can't there simply be an answer to the simple question of how many more (than seven) churches were there in Roman "Asia"? And in what cities were they located?
Which specific history of the early church will answer the questions asked?
How has it been shown that the paragraphs of Revelation must be entirely symbolic, instead of Revelation being almost entirely literal?
Revelation can be almost entirely literal because, as scripture, it's not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. And nothing about Revelation's paragraphs in themselves requires that they can't be almost entirely literal.
The details aren't irrelevant to any generation, for the reasons given in the first part of post 851.
Why?
What's far-fetched about a (singular) android image of the Antichrist? For the original Greek word (eikon, G1504) translated as the "image" of the beast (Revelation 13:15) means something made in the likeness of something else, such as the image of a man engraved on a coin (Luke 20:24). So an android made in the likeness of the Antichrist could be referred to in the Greek as being an "eikon" of the Antichrist.
The future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 could begin in our lifetime. For Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD re-establishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and second coming of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until seventy or eighty years (Ps. 90:10), or a hundred and twenty years (Gen. 6:3).
This doesn't require that the second coming will occur right before, like one year, before that generation will pass: that is, sixty-nine, or seventy-nine, or a hundred and nineteen years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the second coming and rapture (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6) will last seven years (Dan. 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (for example, 2020) earlier than 2021.
Really?
Are the adherents of Covenant Amillennialism really "much more aligned" on what each part of Revelation is supposed to symbolize?
If so, what is the general consensus regarding what each detail in Revelation is supposed to represent?
Also, remember that (symbolicist) Covenant Amillennialism isn't the only Covenant theology, for there is also (literalist) Covenant Premillennialism, which also (correctly) refutes the mistaken ideas of Dispensationalism.
Regarding "that's the church", instead of referring to the church, the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 re-establishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was re-established in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming, for it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit.
Also, the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was re-established in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed, before Jesus' second coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed back in 70 AD by a Roman army.
Regarding "god's REAL kingdom", God's/Jesus' real kingdom has always been, and still is, Israel (Jn. 1:49, 12:13-15, 19:19, Lk. 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, Jesus will sit on the earthly throne of David (Lk. 1:32-33, Isa. 9:7) & restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Mt. 1:1, 21:15-16, Rom. 1:3), of the house of David (Lk. 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he'll restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isa. 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Sam. 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kin. 17:21a), & Jesus will fulfill the prophecy & prayer of 2 Sam. 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zech. 12:10-14, 13:1,6, Rom. 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are no believers outside of the church (Eph. 4:4-6).
After Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:3, Zech. 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, Zech. 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zech. 8:22, 14:9, Ps. 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isa. 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isa. 2:1-4, Zech. 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), for the church is Israel.
For all genetic Jews in the church remain Israel (Rom. 11:1), & all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).
The abomination of desolation didn't happen in 70 AD, because it has to do with something (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) being placed standing in the specific "holy place" (that is, the inner sanctum) part of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), shortly before the Antichrist himself sits there and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). This could occur about four years before the Wailing Wall is destroyed.
God didn't say that scripture is bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general.
For all scripture (including Revelation) was written by the inspiration of God himself (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it was not written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (compare 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of scripture (including Revelation) are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (compare Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation can't be almost entirely literal.
Indeed.
Part of 1 Corinthians 14 says that everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so he can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).
With regard to Revelation, its original Greek has been interpreted into many different languages, so that it can be understood by believers in many different nations. And just as with its original Greek, so with its translations, nothing in the language of Revelation itself requires that it cannot be almost entirely literal.
Also, the rules of 1 Corinthians 14 are not man-made (1 Corinthians 14:37).
Also, the basic principle of 1 Corinthians 14, of making messages from God understandable to people, would support the idea of God's message in Revelation being almost entirely literal, instead of it consisting entirely of mysterious symbols.
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eclipsenow
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Reading Genesis is totally different. That traces the unfolding plan of God which was fulfilled in Christ. We learn more about the gospel and how it works and how the Old Testament fits together by reading Genesis and God's promises to Eve, and unfolding promises to Abram (Abraham) etc, and how it is all fulfilled in the 'serpent crusher', Jesus himself. It's called Biblical Theology, and the Old and New Testaments feed back into each other with New interpreting the Old but the Old providing that background for the New to interpret.
Revelation, read your futuristic way, is just a distraction from the gospel. It's all these silly bits and pieces and nations and personalities and it takes so much STUDY to try and play Nostradamus with Revelation that way, so much WORK to fit all the bits in and come up with the silly contradicting schemes you futurists all come up with. It doesn't unpack the gospel, doesn't bring glory to Jesus, and doesn't build the church. The fights in here over various futurists schemes are unbelievable. And it's just not worth it. When God sent his own Son into the world, and every OT promise is fulfilled in Christ, the way you rabbit on and on and on and on and on and on about aliens and androids and all that rot just shows where your heart really is.
You've quoted a lot of verses here to try and look like you know something, but none of these verses support your argument. Sorry. You're just wrong. Try again.
You're just too obtuse to bother with sometimes.
You're insecure about your entire APPROACH to reading Genesis being wrong. Then you might have to drop androids and aliens and all your dogmatic, arrogant, crystal ball gazing schemes for the future. And, to a hardened futurist like you, where's the fun in that? Where's the fun in just having the GOSPEL to proclaim? You want something more exciting, more today, more prophetic to tell people.
But what if God doesn't share your enthusiasm for all these details? What if Revelation is mainly symbolic and these symbols add up to amazing sermons? What if you're entire campaign here is based on the wrong presuppositions, the wrong 'reading glasses' as you approach this book? THAT is why you are threatened by symbols.
You cannot know any such thing because your post 851 makes no new points whatsoever, repeats the same trite misunderstandings and ignorance of BASIC hermeneutic principles, and shows you to be completely ignorant of where to even start with the book. Other than those little details, we're all completely convinced!
(This last sentence was written in a style we call sarcastic, just in case you had trouble reading the genre. So was that one).Because you seem completely unaware what a vast number of evangelical, reformed theologians say about the basic hermeneutic principles for Revelation are. It's like trying to be an art critic without ever going to art school, or trying to conduct an orchestra without reading music. Every time you say it's literal it's like you've put a teapot on your head and announced, "I like smearing peanut butter all over my walls and couch, don't you?"
Dr Paul Barnett covers why Revelation is mostly symbolic. So does Richardson.
A great SHORT commentary on Revelation that helps unpack it quickly is also quite cheap. It's "Revelation Unwrapped" by John Richardson, and takes a mostly Reformed Amil Symbolic approach to the obvious and even more obscure Old Testament symbols used by John.
Try the Book Depository: under $6 and worldwide postage is FREE!
Revelation Unwrapped: Commentary on Revelation : Paperback : John Richardson : 9780952489429
Another great commentary that is also symbolist but also has a slightly more Historical emphasis is by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul lecturered in Ancient History at Macquarie University as well as being an ordained Bishop of North Sydney. He ran historical tours of the bible lands, and is uniquely qualified to speak of John's historical references in Revelation. Under $15.
Apocalypse Now and Then: Reading Revelation Today : Paperback : Paul Barnett : 9781875861415
They do for the reasons I cited above in this post.
That's a semantic game. I of course agree that this is Revelation's testimony about itself, but what does Revelation reveal? You don't get to claim this verse to justify reading Revelation literally, as it doesn't actually tell us HOW to read it. The book itself does as we encounter paragraph after paragraph of biblical symbols.
Oh, wait a minute! I thought you said the book was literal apart from a few instances with Jesus near the beginning. OK, now the horns are not literal... but the android bit is? Tell us the truth: you just make this up as you go along, don't you?
Or he could represent ALL false doctrines from false prophets, and speak heresies. And the first beast may just represent ALL beastly governments that persecute God's people. When they get together and give each other more power, the State drawing down on some heretic doctrine for added 'moral' authority, they both get even more power. For there will be true believers in these systems. Like Stalin's Communism, or Mao's little red book, and the pain these governments AND systems, or 'beasts' and 'false prophets', can inflict on God's people is immense.
'He' could say something like this in one contest, or 'Religion is poison, a seductive drug to pacify the proletariat so they do not rise up and throw out the bourgeoisie.'
The symbolic language in Revelation applies as a warning to ALL Christians in all ages, as it is written almost in a generic biblical symbolism that we find in the parables.
Blah blah blah, there you go proving the sheer COMMITMENT you have to filling in details that Revelation just doesn't spell out. You read this literally, don't you? Well HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY ADDING SO MUCH DETAIL TO THE BIBLE!?
I've heard cracking good sermons based on the biblical symbolism here, but when you literalist-futurists start going my eyes glaze over because:
1. It's so BORING! You make up your own version of the future through whatever subjective process your imaginations go through, and loosely attach Revelation to it, and it ends up boring me to tears. There's nothing really of the bible here, just futurist fantasies about how the world powers and various individuals are going to carry on. It's like listening to someone else raving on and on about their dream: and just as dull. Especially when futurists number 665 starts with their future dreams, and scolding 664. Then 666 arrives with their dreams for the future, etc... It's so DULL and I KNOW I'm not actually learning anything. That's why I skip past your 'dream sequences' when you go into a million miles of detail, because I flat out KNOW that this is just your imagination at work.
2. It's based on the wrong presuppositions about Revelation.
(Sighs and shakes head in frustration). Did Jesus have 7 horns on his head? What does the horn mean in the bible in the way JOHN uses it? Sure Daniel might have used it one way, but what does JOHN do when he applies the horn to Jesus, hey? Jesus 7 horns show he has God's perfect power. The 10 horns here show the state to appear to have much more power, but it's the wrong number: 10, not seven. That means, symbolically, that it is sheer brute force, not guided by God's characteristics in perfect power. It's human, not God, false-Messiah, not Messiah, false-prophet, not the Christ.
Yes, but as I said above, how did JOHN just use horns when describing Jesus, hey? We interpret Revelation by first asking how JOHN uses these symbols.
There you go again, adding FAR more details to Revelation than are actually there. And you have the EFFRONTERY and ARROGANCE to claim you read it literally? That's amazing, truly amazing, when you add all this junk in.
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eclipsenow
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Write to either Paul Barnett or a professor of New Testament history. They may be able to help you. As far as I quoted above, Paul Barnett does not say. But that's no reason to try and imply he is a liar by asking those questions in the tone you use.
Well, unless you're calling Paul Barnett a liar, he just did. But you seem to want more than that.
While we are on it, did you ever notice the Chiastic structure in the letters to the churches? Does that not tell you it is not literal, but highly arranged, even poetic?
Much more! There might be a few differences here or there, but generally, yes, much more.
That question is just rude: I do NOT have time to digest dozens of commentaries for you. If you want a good sample of some of the unity and a little of the diversity, try these 2 books.
My Commentaries:
A great SHORT commentary on Revelation that helps unpack it quickly is also quite cheap. It's "Revelation Unwrapped" by John Richardson, and takes a mostly Reformed Amil Symbolic approach to the obvious and even more obscure Old Testament symbols used by John.
Try the Book Depository: under $6 and worldwide postage is FREE!
Revelation Unwrapped: Commentary on Revelation : Paperback : John Richardson : 9780952489429
Another great commentary that is also symbolist but also has a slightly more Historical emphasis is by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul lecturered in Ancient History at Macquarie University as well as being an ordained Bishop of North Sydney. He ran historical tours of the bible lands, and is uniquely qualified to speak of John's historical references in Revelation. Under $15.
Apocalypse Now and Then: Reading Revelation Today : Paperback : Paul Barnett : 9781875861415
Well, good. I'm glad you see that. Can we also call "Covenant Premillennialism" Historic Premillennialism, because many of the early church fathers believed this.
I'm actually very glad to agree with you on this, and quite relieved that we have some small measure of agreement on the problems with Dispensationalism. But seriously, why do you go and WRECK this with 7 Holy Spirits, android antichrists, etc etc etc?
Just copying and pasting the same paragraph about 30 times at me is really quite rude, or shows you to be a little autistic? If that's the case, I'm sorry, and maybe I shouldn't even be discussing this with you.
Your behaviour is EXTREMELY frustrating, because you pretend to be polite and don't ventilate the way I do, but then just passive-aggressively throw back the same mantra's again and again and again, and merely shrug and question any new data I ever provide. I'm genuinely concerned that, maybe I've had you wrong all this time? Maybe you're not an internet troll, but are in fact... quite Aspergers?
Maybe you can't HELP building weird patterns into a book like Revelation when you read it?
Asperger syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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So does Revelation trace the unfolding plan of God. For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 show what God (and others) will do in the future. For those chapters are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.
The future events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in no way a distraction from the gospel of Jesus Christ, but are a revelation from Jesus Christ himself (Revelation 1:1). They are (like the rest of Revelation) the testimony of his angel to the church (Revelation 22:16).
What has been shown to be silly?
Also, study of the Bible it supposed to be work (2 Timothy 2:15).
Also, just as people should not reject Christianity per se simply because it is divided into different denominations, which cannot agree on what all the scriptures mean, so people should not reject futurism per se simply because it is divided into different schools (for example, pre-trib or post-trib, dispensational or covenantal), which cannot agree on what all the prophetic scriptures mean. People should nonetheless accept Christianity per se, because it is scriptural and nothing disproves it, just as they should accept futurism per se, because it is scriptural and nothing disproves it.
It doesn't distract from the gospel; it does bring glory to Jesus; and it does build the church, just as all scripture does (2 Timothy 3:16).
Also, Revelation chapters 6 to 18's detailed description of our future especially builds the church which is alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at that time will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16), is so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
How has that been shown?
How has it been shown to be wrong?
He must, for he is the author of all of them. For Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it was not written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (compare 2 Peter 1:21), so that all the details of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (compare Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b).
Revelation is almost entirely literal, for the reasons given in the "Revelation is in fact almost entirely literal" part of post 851.
How has it been shown that there has been any such misunderstandings or ignorance?
Regarding the theologians you're referring to, you will need to provide in this thread quotes (or paraphrases in your own words) of their specific arguments based on the scriptures themselves (compare Isaiah 8:20b), and not on any man-made ideas (compare 1 Corinthians 1:20).
What Biblical symbols?
Revelation includes both literal things and symbolic things.
For example, parts of Rev. 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).
Can you give some examples of what you mean by generic Biblical symbolism?
Nothing has been added to the Bible.
Also, Revelation itself already contains a huge amount of detail.
How do you know it's just imagination, and not a possibly accurate interpretation of how the scripture will be fulfilled in our future?
How has that been shown?
The seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Rev. 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Rev. 19:12).
Do you really?
I thought you said in a prior post that everything in Revelation is a past Biblical symbol.
So everything is past and something new (by John) at the same time?
How?
If it's a new use, how does the past use matter?
And how do you determine what the new use is, if it's different from the past use?
What has been shown to be junk?
*******
What tone? And how has it been shown to imply that anyone is a liar?
Can you give some examples of what you're referring to?
Can you show how Covenant Amillennialism is much more aligned (than Futurism) on what each part of Revelation is supposed to symbolize?
Can you provide some sample quotes (or paraphrases in your own words) of their specific arguments based on the scriptures themselves (compare Isaiah 8:20b), and not on any man-made ideas (compare 1 Corinthians 1:20)?
How does what has been said, about what the seven Spirits of God could be, or what the image of the Antichrist could be, wreck Covenant theology?
Why shouldn't any new data be questioned?
Also, what new data has been proven to be true?
Also, what new data, that has been proven to be true, has not been addressed?
What patterns are you referring to, and how have they been shown to be weird?
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eclipsenow
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If it's clear, and warns us, when it is going to happen? You get 300 words MAX. Write in point form, not your longer verbal free-association melange of boring details.
I want a summary of what you think Revelation is REALLY warning us about. A SHORT summary. Don't even bother copying and pasting in all the (totally unrelated) verses you do. I want it like this.
- Israel will rebuild the temple in 20 years
- The Android Image will tell governments to kill Christians
- So the bible warns us that Christians should....
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