Mar 22: they are at it again

[peterlindner]

God TESTED his children.
Judges 3: Ehud was carrying a false gift as a two edged dagger. When He killed the king, his loyalists didn't know it because of feet that were covered.

Revelations 1: Angel has brass feet...supernatural, from God, but brass is man made and false message.

Jesus: washed the feet...if you make known by cleaning the feet then you know that what you have is clean.

Israel's blessings to Joseph's children was reversed. Hands were crossed over. Gen 48 and 49. The Benjamite blessing is as a ravenous wolf.

God sent evil angels (psalm 78:49)(2Corinth11) and tempted (tested) Jesus.

Those that have ears to hear might be able to put these patterns together.
The book of Revelations is an angel message to test to see if you gained understanding from the rest of the Word. Are you going to listen to angels? Jesus didn't accept their temptation.
peter

 

[Marantha]

God TESTED his children.
Judges 3: Ehud was carrying a false gift as a two edged dagger. When He killed the king, his loyalists didn't know it because of feet that were covered.

Revelations 1: Angel has brass feet...supernatural, from God, but brass is man made and false message.

Jesus: washed the feet...if you make known by cleaning the feet then you know that what you have is clean.

Israel's blessings to Joseph's children was reversed. Hands were crossed over. Gen 48 and 49. The Benjamite blessing is as a ravenous wolf.

God sent evil angels (psalm 78:49)(2Corinth11) and tempted (tested) Jesus.

Those that have ears to hear might be able to put these patterns together.
The book of Revelations is an angel message to test to see if you gained understanding from the rest of the Word. Are you going to listen to angels? Jesus didn't accept their temptation.
peter

If you are saying what you seem to be saying in the bold type above, then it is one of the most incredible things I have ever read.

No doubt God tests his children.

You are implying that the Book of Revelation is a test from angels to mislead and we should not accept that temptation? Surely I must be misinterpreting what you said......................

All Glory to God
Marantha

 

[RDKirk]

I guess my real question is: So what?

If I'm doing for the Lord what I should have always been doing, it should make zero difference in anything I do tomorrow whether or not rapture will occur on March 22. Up until that very day, that very moment, my activities should not change.

I remember a period in November 83 when those of us on the Strategic Air Combat Operations Staff were furiously planning for immediate war with the Soviet Union (look up "Able Archer" in Wikipedia--at Strategic Air Command headquarters, while all that was going on we necessarily had to operate under the presumption that the war would not be called off).

During that time of incredible uncertainty, while some of us were preparing for the absolute worst to happen, most of us still had to go about our regular daily activities...because the worst might not happen. And in fact, it did not.

 

[peterlindner]

If you are saying what you seem to be saying in the bold type above, then it is one of the most incredible things I have ever read.

No doubt God tests his children.

You are implying that the Book of Revelation is a test from angels to mislead and we should not accept that temptation? Surely I must be misinterpreting what you said......................

All Glory to God
Marantha

YES. A test from God through angels. That is God's pattern. There are end time scriptures; they just aren't in Revelation.

I was thinking about the temptation from angels to Jesus. They atleast promised him something "good"(kingdom of God). Although they were not going to be able to deliver.

In Revelation the angels promise us hell fire, damnation, and burning and most people gobble it up. TEST FAILED.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

TEST FAILED.

That is not true. At the end we will know who passed and who failed.

 

[peterlindner]

That is not true. At the end we will know who passed and who failed.

Sure. everyone will know the end at the end. Doesn't take faith for that. I wonder what people do with all the Word that they can't eat. I suppose it gets collected back up in baskets.

 

[Bethwhite]

God TESTED his children.
Judges 3: Ehud was carrying a false gift as a two edged dagger. When He killed the king, his loyalists didn't know it because of feet that were covered.

Revelations 1: Angel has brass feet...supernatural, from God, but brass is man made and false message.

Jesus: washed the feet...if you make known by cleaning the feet then you know that what you have is clean.

Israel's blessings to Joseph's children was reversed. Hands were crossed over. Gen 48 and 49. The Benjamite blessing is as a ravenous wolf.

God sent evil angels (psalm 78:49)(2Corinth11) and tempted (tested) Jesus.

Those that have ears to hear might be able to put these patterns together.
The book of Revelations is an angel message to test to see if you gained understanding from the rest of the Word. Are you going to listen to angels? Jesus didn't accept their temptation.
peter

If you are saying what you seem to be saying in the bold type above, then it is one of the most incredible things I have ever read.

No doubt God tests his children.

You are implying that the Book of Revelation is a test from angels to mislead and we should not accept that temptation? Surely I must be misinterpreting what you said......................

All Glory to God
Marantha

Marantha, Yep, that's what he's saying.

I'm blown away by all the Revelation deniers on this forum.

It's evil and has eternal consequences.

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

The big day March 22 is coming up. I'm preparing my vocal chords for a good chuckle.

 

[Bethwhite]

The word raptured is NOT used in the passage.
How they got there is NOT described in the passage.
= You're just reading what you want INTO the passage.


The white robes, standing before God, salvation, etc, all apply to me right now. Did you know that? Eph 2: I'm already seated in heaven! The moment we become Christians we get all this, but, admittedly, in 'eschatological tension'. Now and not yet. We're there, already citizens of heaven, but we're still on the quest, still in the desert. Now, but not yet.


Nice theory, but wrong. As I've already shown in the example above, Revelation is NOT a timetable but a waltz around many different themes.


Irrelevant. Not sure how this supports your argument?

Yes, they are safe with God, but as I said that we already are the moment we are saved. But yes, I concede that John shows us a glimpse of the safety of the Saints in Heaven, I was just pointing out the implications of "eschatological Tension" so that you wouldn't argue too strongly for the Rapture because there is no Rapture, only Judgement Day as the one event!


That's RIDICULOUS! What, you read the 144,000 LITERALLY!? So only 144,000 Jewish virgin men get to be 'sealed' on earth? Wow, that's just so weird. Good luck with pushing those views.

Your problem appears to be a lack of familiarity with apocalyptic writing. You read these verses LITERALLY! That's like reading Jane Austen to build a 747, or a toaster manual to repair a high-end graphic designer's Macintosh Computer. Or, more to the point, it's like reading Shakespeare as a future timetable. It's just wrong. Go back and read Revelation 1, where John says he is writing to his generation, for the time is near, and it is soon, and he shares in their persecutions and tribulations! The 'great tribulation' had already started. It's called the Last Days, and we've been in them since Acts 2 and Hebrews 1!

I'm sorry that the idea of the resurrection to immortality (salvation) when Christ appears and gathers us to heaven is offensive to you.

It is written in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Revelation 7 is indeed describing the newly raptured church.

As I said before, your authority on Scripture is not Scripture, but commentaries and doctrines of men so conversing with you is futile.

Trust what God said.

For others who come along and read this:

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.


1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

"Whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him" (when our salvation comes) :

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


Here we are, after our salvation has come:

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

 

[eclipsenow]

Marantha is right here. I am excited, preparing myself and those around me for this incredible time. I hope you all would do the same.

Come Lord Jesus
Marantha

Incredible sure is the right word! At least, the 2nd meaning sure applies to these B-grade, embarrassing, egg-on-your-face video's you've been promoting. Be assured that there is no reason to give up your Christian faith when these things DO NOT HAPPEN, as the bible is still true: it's just these moronic video's have inserted whatever they want across the pages of God's word. You are right on one thing: God's word does not lie, but these video's sure do!

I just hope you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater when all your 'incredible' faith in these worthless video's is shown to be overly gullible and foolish.

incredible

2. not credible; hard to believe; unbelievable: The plot of the book is incredible.



Incredible | Define Incredible at Dictionary.com

 

[eclipsenow]

I'm sorry that the idea of the resurrection to immortality (salvation) when Christ appears and gathers us to heaven is offensive to you.

I'm sorry that you don't know how to read or ask polite questions, and have to patronise in every single sentence you ever write, ever. But if you're prepared to play by that game, so am I.

It is written in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

No it isn't. So there.

Revelation 7 is indeed describing the newly raptured church.

Just repeating yourself does not make it right. I'm sorry for you that you think it does, but sheer repetition does not an argument make.

As I said before, your authority on Scripture is not Scripture, but commentaries and doctrines of men so conversing with you is futile.

Conversing with YOU is futile, but I can't help it if you think YOU are the only authority worth trusting in.

Trust what God said.

No, let's be clear. You're asking me to trust YOUR GUT FEELING, not God's word. I'M THE ONLY ONE HERE QUOTING 2 TIMOTHY 3:16!

For others who come along and read this:

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Agreed, but this is not what we are discussing, is it? What we are discussing is why you apply the incorrect category of 'raptured' church to Revelation 7. I'm happy to accept that it shows the SECURE SALVATION of the church, which this Hebrews verse of course supports. That's not the point of contention. (In case you don't understand contention, it's the big word readers use to describe where we disagree. Get it?)

1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Yup, you did it again. None of us disagree with this. You have a real problem with sticking to the subject, don't you? I COMPLETELY agree that Revelation 7 shows us the saved, safe, secure church: all the believers in God all across time safely before his thrown. This is AFTER the great and glorious and terrifying Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Judgement shown repeatedly through the bible. This is a fast-forward scene showing us a glimpse of the safety we'll have in heaven with our Lord. I AGREE!

Where I disagree is where you would insert the word 'rapture' as if that is a separate thing to Judgement Day. Let me ask you this way:

Do you think the Rapture is a separate event to Return of the Lord on Judgement Day?

1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

I agree with this verse as well!
I disagree that it supports anything in your argument! Do you even know what you are discussing and where we are disagreeing?

"Whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him" (when our salvation comes) :

Agreed.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Agreed: all of this occurs on the one great and terrible day of the Lord's judgement.

Here we are, after our salvation has come:

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

Once again, I AGREE!

Maybe we actually agree? Will you just answer my question about how you view the 'rapture'? Most people who use that word separate out the being 'caught up' by God from the Judgement of God. But if we remember the imagery of the word 'caught up' is closely associated with Noah, we can see that his being 'caught up' in the ark is intimately associated with the immediate judgement of everyone outside the ark. Being 'taken' is being saved, being left behind is being drowned, immediately. For as the ark is 'caught up', it is 'caught up' on the drowning floodwaters of God's judgement.

I have a standard file I copy and paste at this point, but I'll leave it there for now. Please consider where I am actually disagreeing with you, and don't sarcastically chide me for being embarrassed about my salvation! That's called a straw-man argument, and only embarrasses your own ability to comprehend where we disagree.

 

[eclipsenow]

I guess my real question is: So what?

If I'm doing for the Lord what I should have always been doing, it should make zero difference in anything I do tomorrow whether or not rapture will occur on March 22. Up until that very day, that very moment, my activities should not change.

I remember a period in November 83 when those of us on the Strategic Air Combat Operations Staff were furiously planning for immediate war with the Soviet Union (look up "Able Archer" in Wikipedia--at Strategic Air Command headquarters, while all that was going on we necessarily had to operate under the presumption that the war would not be called off).

During that time of incredible uncertainty, while some of us were preparing for the absolute worst to happen, most of us still had to go about our regular daily activities...because the worst might not happen. And in fact, it did not.

Awesome quote! Although I disagree with the emphasis on the word 'rapture' here (as I see the Rapture as the Return of the Lord and Judgement Day all rolled into one), I completely agree with the eschatological tension built into your post AND your signature! We are now already citizens of heaven, so do we neglect our daily duties? Our families? Do we go slightly unhinged and become 'manic street preachers'? No! We go to work, we are good citizens of America (or Australia! Phew, I'm glad to be down-under not worrying about all those guns! ), we pray for our neighbours, we work hard and faithfully for our human bosses as unto the Lord, we witness where we can, and we share the gospel faithfully.

But we do NOT need to go manic and embarrass our Lord by shouting at strangers on the street, or selling all our worldly goods and running of to some Waco, Texas compound.

 

[Bethwhite]

I'm blown away by the sheer amount of believers who are having dreams about this coming week. I hadn't even looked to see what others have been shown. I've been too focused on what God was showing me.

Two people had dreams that show the rapture occurring as early as the 18th/19th - two days from now.

Because of time zones, the day and hour is unknown. One moment in time is a different day and hour for everyone all over the planet.

Given the sheer volume of warnings, dreams, understanding that is happening among Spirit-filled believers, something is up.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

 

[peterlindner]

It's George Carlin all over again. There are morons in front and idiots behind. Some are quoting angels and Eclipse is defending a position from talking hedgehogs and waiting for Prince Caspian.

 

[Bethwhite]

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

 

[eclipsenow]

I'm blown away by the sheer amount of believers who are having dreams about this coming week. I hadn't even looked to see what others have been shown. I've been too focused on what God was showing me.

Careful sister, as under Old Testament law you could be up for execution if it doesn't pan out the way your claiming God says it will. That would make you a false prophet.

Two people had dreams that show the rapture occurring as early as the 18th/19th - two days from now.

Because of time zones, the day and hour is unknown. One moment in time is a different day and hour for everyone all over the planet.

Given the sheer volume of warnings, dreams, understanding that is happening among Spirit-filled believers, something is up.

subjective mumbo jumbo

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

And what was that verse actually about?

Hey, sister, you never answered the verses that say we don't know!

1. WE ARE TOLD WE WILL NOT KNOW WHEN THE LORD WILL RETURN, SO WE SHOULD PATIENTLY STAY TRUSTING IN THE LORD FOR OUR DAY OF SALVATION.

Matthew 24 says:
"36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away..... 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

THAT'S how we must 'be ready'. If we do not trust in the Lord then:
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This is salvation or damnation stuff, not a bit of knowledge about a timetable).

Luke 12:40
"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
It does NOT say "You must know in advance so that you can be ready." It says "Be ready BECAUSE you will not know!"


Revelation 3:3
"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."
(Remember the gospel and hold it fast and repent!!! Stay Christian, or you might get caught off guard! Becoming lazy and slack is 'falling asleep' right here. The irony is that futurists are the ones who obsess over and read Revelation the most, but miss this clear message):
Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on, so that they may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
(It's not about knowing a date but staying clothed! Being prepared! Being in the gospel, not out of it. Being Christian. How sad it is that so many people spend so much time trying to nail Revelation to their timetables and chronologies when John says twice in this very book that Jesus will come like a thief!)

2. BIBLE SHOWS PEOPLE 'GUESSING' WRONGLY
Not only that, but guessing the date is bad because people mess it up!
2 Thessalonians 2:2 shows the heresy of full Preterism in action: they taught that the Lord had *already* returned. They messed it up!

3. 'FUTURE KNOWLEDGE' VERSES DO NOT STACK UP!
Some futurists argue that certain verses mean we must know. They point to verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
This verse is *not* saying Christians should know ahead of the event: that would clearly contradict all the verses we saw above. Instead it says we should not be *unprepared*, not caught in sin and out of faith.

4. WHAT GOOD IS KNOWING A DATE?
Why is knowing the date of the Lord's return even important? What are we meant to DO? How does knowing a date off in the future some time help us? How is trying to calculate that date not a distraction from our core gospel purpose? It doesn't actually help. We live busy lives, and I think our devotional reading could be far better spent in Biblical Theology and Systematic Theology and Apologetics and prayer than wasting endless hours trying to pin down some obscure date. A date many have guessed and published and failed and make a mockery of themselves and their Lord.

Knowing the date might even make some *relax* until then. Would knowing the date off in the future help some to flirt with a worldly lifestyle? To take it easy? In contrast, I can only see warnings against guessing the time of the Lord's return in the bible!

On the other hand, 'predicting' an early date to make your 'ministry' more urgent is the tactic of the JW's. It's ungodly and dishonest.

 

[SanFrank]

Paul and peter bickered too but we see that peter admired him in his letter and spoke well of him.

We are each at different stages in our christian walk. Lets remember that and love, respect and forgive one another.

Any other dates set?

 

[eclipsenow]

Paul and peter bickered too but we see that peter admired him in his letter and spoke well of him.

We are each at different stages in our christian walk. Lets remember that and love, respect and forgive one another.

Any other dates set?

Here here! However, the problem here is that BethWhite claims she is Paul, receiving direct instruction from the Holy Spirit, and scoffing at any 'human authorities' that I contribute. However, these 'authorities' are also subject to the objective test of the word of God. It's just that I believe they have expressed their arguments in a far clearer and more convincing argument than Beth's 'knowledge from her gut'.

Oh, and because she is 'Paul', she condescends in the most patronising and disgusting and spiritually superior manner possible. So I respond in kind: just to share the love around.

The more pressing personal challenges I face are losing a bit of weight, surviving a week at work, and trying to maintain a faithful Christian witness in the middle of it all. I wish I could be persuaded that we had promises that would 'jazz up' life here soon: but really, I'm not. Honestly. I just don't see it in the bible. Beth's just making stuff up to 'jazz up' her life. Maybe it's lacking an excitement about the basic gospel of Jesus Christ dying for her?

 

[Zanting]

Paul and peter bickered too but we see that peter admired him in his letter and spoke well of him.

We are each at different stages in our christian walk. Lets remember that and love, respect and forgive one another.

 

[RDKirk]

I'll still ask the question again: What are the people who expect rapture this Friday going to be doing until then?

Are their calendars full of meetings they know of people who need salvation?

Are they going to work this week preaching boldly in the breakroom instead of working--since clearly the priority is no longer getting that report completed before the end of the month.

Last chance to earn a few more of those crowns, make a few last deposits into that Heavenly 401K!