Paleo Hebrew

[mrs94]

Hi guys! Need some help on something. I posted this here because I wanted to catch more attention.

I was listening to a Pastor earlier rail against the Hebrew Roots movement. One of things he said was that the understanding of Paleohebrew pictographs came from the Kabbalah. Since I am just learning Hebrew and have been looking at some of that, I need help with discernment. I have enjoyed learning what names really mean when the pictograph of the letters has been put together. But, I don't want to get sucked down the path of Kabbalah either.

Please tell me what you think.

 

[mishkan]

Hi guys! Need some help on something. I posted this here because I wanted to catch more attention.

I was listening to a Pastor earlier rail against the Hebrew Roots movement. One of things he said was that the understanding of Paleohebrew pictographs came from the Kabbalah. Since I am just learning Hebrew and have been looking at some of that, I need help with discernment. I have enjoyed learning what names really mean when the pictograph of the letters has been put together. But, I don't want to get sucked down the path of Kabbalah either.

Please tell me what you think.

I think the fellow you were watching has his own mixture of issues to deal with.

Paleo-Hebrew

Paleo-Hebrew is a real script. But it dates from a time so early, that even Moses never heard of it. The Bible was never penned in anything like Paleo-Hebrew. There is some evidence that the tetragrammaton (YHVH) may have been preserved in its paleo form for some time, but that is merely decorative, and not substantive to interpretation. It is an issue in the Hebrew Roots camp only because some have become so enamored with the script that they miss the actual meaning of the texts they are reading.

Kabbalah

There is nothing inherently wrong with the Kabbalah, either. But one must be well-grounded in the plain meaning of the Biblical texts before delving into Jewish mystical philosophy. Mature kabbalists will even tell you that, prior to embarking on the study, one must be 40+ years old (experienced), married (mature/stable), and a master of the Torah texts.

Conclusion

So, I agree that there are valid concerns and issues within the Hebrew Roots community. But your speaker seems to have confused the priorities a bit, and gotten himself focused on the wrong issues.

 

[mrs94]

I think the fellow you were watching has his own mixture of issues to deal with.

Paleo-Hebrew

Paleo-Hebrew is a real script. But it dates from a time so early, that even Moses never heard of it. The Bible was never penned in anything like Paleo-Hebrew. There is some evidence that the tetragrammaton (YHVH) may have been preserved in its paleo form for some time, but that is merely decorative, and not substantive to interpretation. It is an issue in the Hebrew Roots camp only because some have become so enamored with the script that they miss the actual meaning of the texts they are reading.

Kabbalah

There is nothing inherently wrong with the Kabbalah, either. But one must be well-grounded in the plain meaning of the Biblical texts before delving into Jewish mystical philosophy. Mature kabbalists will even tell you that, prior to embarking on the study, one must be 40+ years old (experienced), married (mature/stable), and a master of the Torah texts.

Conclusion

So, I agree that there are valid concerns and issues within the Hebrew Roots community. But your speaker seems to have confused the priorities a bit, and gotten himself focused on the wrong issues.

The Pastor was wrong on multiple issues anyway. He was arguing against keeping Torah at all and actually said the 4th commandment was nailed to the cross. While I knew most of what he said was not biblically based...I wasn't sure about this issue.

I am new to this...and, just a few months ago..didn't know where to start. I knew Yeshua was God, had been crucified for sins and was resurrected, but, I threw almost everything else out and started over. This is just something else that I am testing to make sure that it is scriptural.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi mrs94,

Hebrew Roots can mean many things, not the least of which is sensationalism for the sake of notoriety. While I was once heavily involved, I have since come to understand that it has become a minefield of small specks of gold in large expanses of manure. Both gold and manure have their uses. But too often in Hebrew Roots, someone is peddling cow pies as a gold substitute.

On to the paleo-Hebraic scripts. It is widely understood that language is a gift from the Creator, not a construct of man and not an evolved skill. Most researchers will tell you that all language is based on visualizations of object - symbols. So there is merit in studying the ancient Hebraic scripts because most of the pictographic symbols are defined in scriptural Hebrew. The ancient letter Aleph is the symbol of an ox head. The word Aleph in Hebrew means ox. The letter Ayin is a pictograph of an eye. The word Ayin mean eye, and so on. Some of it is easy. Some, not so much. Sometimes the symbolism of the pictographs that make up Hebrew root words seems a little obscure, but there is almost always a relationship between the symbolism of the pictographs that is consistent within the context of the culture and normal actions of ancient man.

Understanding that letters have symbolic definitions helps illustrate how words and abstract thoughts are portrayed in scripture. Not a mean feat when you consider that ancient Hebrew is not well suited to abstract thought, except through figures of speech that contradicting the principle of compositionality. This is why difficult passages are difficult. The plain meaning of the text is often obscured in idiom, metaphor, simile, hyperbole, or personification; all of which are known to the Hebrew Oracles; some of which are lost to history.

Understanding symbolism can also reveal themes in scripture. For instance, the verses in an acrostic can be understood within the general meaning of the corresponding letter. Like the Aleph verses having to do with His strength, leadership and authority while the Bet (tent, dwelling or within) verses having to do with His Mishkan, family or the Spirit within. This feature of pictographs can also lead to defining larger themes within certain prominent 'sets' in scripture like the 'The Sevens'.

There is one place where David and I absolutely agree. You must strive to understand the plain meaning of the text first and foremost. For me that means understanding Hebrew poetry forms, figures of speech and midrashic homiletics. Personally I think studying the symbolism of the ancient Hebrew pictographs will get you there a lot faster than studying the mysticism that evolved out of the Jewish diaspora. But some people contend that it gives meaning to some difficult passages in scripture that would otherwise remain obscure. Who am I to judge except for myself. We each have our views.

David's cautions are valid. It is true that you shouldn't get so enamored with the script that you ignore the scriptures. But then again, we feel almost the same way about Jewish mysticism.

Blessings,

Hi guys! Need some help on something. I posted this here because I wanted to catch more attention.

I was listening to a Pastor earlier rail against the Hebrew Roots movement. One of things he said was that the understanding of Paleohebrew pictographs came from the Kabbalah. Since I am just learning Hebrew and have been looking at some of that, I need help with discernment. I have enjoyed learning what names really mean when the pictograph of the letters has been put together. But, I don't want to get sucked down the path of Kabbalah either.

Please tell me what you think.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I'm pretty sure we do have scriptures that were written in what is called variously Paleo-Hebrew, Sinaitic, Canaanite and Phoenician - whether they survived to this day or not - I'll try to substantialize that. The convential wisdom is it it fell out of favor when the script variously called Ashuri, Babylonic and Aramaic replaced it among the returnees from the Babylonian exile.

Paleo-Hebrew certainly has nothing to do with Kabbala. I've never heard Kabbalists mention Paleo-Hebrew.

 

[mishkan]

I'm pretty sure we do have scriptures that were written in what is called variously Paleo-Hebrew, Sinaitic, Canaanite and Phoenician - whether they survived to this day or not - I'll try to substantialize that. The convential wisdom is it it fell out of favor when the script variously called Ashuri, Babylonic and Aramaic replaced it among the returnees from the Babylonian exile.

I'd be intrigued to find we had any mss in Paleo. Never come across such a thing, myself.

Paleo-Hebrew certainly has nothing to do with Kabbala. I've never heard Kabbalists mention Paleo-Hebrew.

I suspect the fellow was conflating Paleo-Hebrew with gematria.

 

[Yahudim]

There is a study of the mystical properties of Hebrew letters within Kabbalah, but is has to do with the modern or 'square' script that originated in Babylon. Perhaps that is source of his confusion.

Concerning the ancient Hebrew scripts, many are now utilizing the categories of early, middle, late, and modern to differentiate between them.

I'd be intrigued to find we had any mss in Paleo. Never come across such a thing, myself.



I suspect the fellow was conflating Paleo-Hebrew with gematria.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I'd be intrigued to find we had any mss in Paleo. Never come across such a thing, myself.



I suspect the fellow was conflating Paleo-Hebrew with gematria.

Sharp eye!
I'll bet your right about that.

 

[mishkan]

There is a study of the mystical properties of Hebrew letters within Kabbalah, but is has to do with the modern or 'square' script that originated in Babylon. Perhaps that is source of his confusion.

That may well be true. You're probably correct.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Hi guys! Need some help on something. I posted this here because I wanted to catch more attention.

I was listening to a Pastor earlier rail against the Hebrew Roots movement. One of things he said was that the understanding of Paleohebrew pictographs came from the Kabbalah. Since I am just learning Hebrew and have been looking at some of that, I need help with discernment. I have enjoyed learning what names really mean when the pictograph of the letters has been put together. But, I don't want to get sucked down the path of Kabbalah either.

Please tell me what you think.

It’s not from Kabbalah, but it is truly ridiculous. Words do NOT gain meaning and should NOT be interpreted based on the letters in the word. It’s just a silly thing to do. It’s absolutely backwards.

The spoken word came about before the written word. When people wanted to represent what they were hearing, they tried to single out the sounds that were produced in their language. They did it by chosing a word that had the sound at the beginning of it and then coming up with a pictograph that represented that word. They then used that initial sound representation to represent the sound in other positions in other words.

It’s not that anyone ever said, “Well, the sound for B is ‘beit’ (house), so let’s see what words we can create out of thin air that have a connection to ‘house’ and create a language like this.” That’s absolutely backwards. This is not how a language contains or conveys meaning.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I'm pretty sure we do have scriptures that were written in what is called variously Paleo-Hebrew, Sinaitic, Canaanite and Phoenician - whether they survived to this day or not - I'll try to substantialize that. The convential wisdom is it it fell out of favor when the script variously called Ashuri, Babylonic and Aramaic replaced it among the returnees from the Babylonian exile.

Paleo-Hebrew certainly has nothing to do with Kabbala. I've never heard Kabbalists mention Paleo-Hebrew.

The Samaritan Pentateuch is written in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet. The entire Torah had to have been written in it originally. It is generally agreed that Ezra switched the writing tradition and rewrote the Torah (and the rest of the books that had been incorporated by his time) in the square script of Aramaic.

 

[Hoshiyya]

The Samaritan Pentateuch is written in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet. The entire Torah had to have been written in it originally. It is generally agreed that Ezra switched the writing tradition and rewrote the Torah (and the rest of the books that had been incorporated by his time) in the square script of Aramaic.

Thanks for the reply!
I believe you're right.
I had forgotten about the Samaritan.

I found this:

Ketef Hinnom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Ketef Hinnom ... is an archaeological site southwest of the Old City of Jerusalem, adjacent to St. Andrew's Church, now on the grounds of the Menachem Begin Heritage Center. The site consists of a series of rock-hewn burial chambers based on natural caverns. In 1979 two tiny silver scrolls, inscribed with portions of the well-known apotropaic Priestly Blessing of the Book of Numbers and apparently once used as amulets, were found in one of the burial chambers. The delicate process of unrolling the scrolls while developing a method that would prevent them from disintegrating took three years. They contain what may be the oldest surviving texts from the Hebrew Bible, dating from around 600 BCE."


"...Barkay initially dated the inscriptions to the late-7th/early-6th centuries BCE, but later revised this date downward to the early 6th century on paleographic grounds (the forms of the delicately incised paleo-Hebrew lettering) and on the evidence of the pottery found in the immediate vicinity. This dating was subsequently questioned by Johannes Renz and Wolfgang Rollig,[3] who argued that the script was in too poor a condition to be dated with certainty and that a 3rd/2nd century BCE provenance could not be excluded, especially as the repository, which had been used as a kind of "rubbish bin" for the burial chamber over many centuries, also contained material from the fourth century BCE."

 

[pat34lee]

It’s not from Kabbalah, but it is truly ridiculous. Words do NOT gain meaning and should NOT be interpreted based on the letters in the word. It’s just a silly thing to do. It’s absolutely backwards.

The spoken word came about before the written word. When people wanted to represent what they were hearing, they tried to single out the sounds that were produced in their language. They did it by chosing a word that had the sound at the beginning of it and then coming up with a pictograph that represented that word. They then used that initial sound representation to represent the sound in other positions in other words.

It’s not that anyone ever said, “Well, the sound for B is ‘beit’ (house), so let’s see what words we can create out of thin air that have a connection to ‘house’ and create a language like this.” That’s absolutely backwards. This is not how a language contains or conveys meaning.

I'm not going to argue this since there is no proof one way or the other but I will give my uneducated opinion.

The original languages and alphabets were given to man, not developed by man. Why do we see so little writing before a certain time? I am guessing the time most people turned to writing was when the languages were mixed. Before that time, everybody lived a long time and all spoke the same language, so there was little need for written material to convey information to future generations.

I think the original Hebrew was based on word pictures. As the language changed and words were added to the language, that started to change also.

Question: Is there any proof that paleo-Hebrew was phonetic and not pictographic?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I think the fellow you were watching has his own mixture of issues to deal with.

Paleo-Hebrew

Paleo-Hebrew is a real script. But it dates from a time so early, that even Moses never heard of it. The Bible was never penned in anything like Paleo-Hebrew. There is some evidence that the tetragrammaton (YHVH) may have been preserved in its paleo form for some time, but that is merely decorative, and not substantive to interpretation. It is an issue in the Hebrew Roots camp only because some have become so enamored with the script that they miss the actual meaning of the texts they are reading.

Kabbalah

There is nothing inherently wrong with the Kabbalah, either. But one must be well-grounded in the plain meaning of the Biblical texts before delving into Jewish mystical philosophy. Mature kabbalists will even tell you that, prior to embarking on the study, one must be 40+ years old (experienced), married (mature/stable), and a master of the Torah texts.

Conclusion

So, I agree that there are valid concerns and issues within the Hebrew Roots community. But your speaker seems to have confused the priorities a bit, and gotten himself focused on the wrong issues.

I would disagree with Moses never seeing this script. The paleo and ancient Hebrew script was most likely read and used by Abraham. What script did Shem and Noah use? Surely there were writings passed from Adam to Noah, and surely there were writings passed from Noah to his descendants. It is in man's nature to write. Moses never saw or read the Masoretic text.

The Torah was most certainly written in the ancient Hebrew script and is preserved by the Samaritan people, descendants of Joseph. YHWH is written in the script the same way it is preserved in the Masoretic text. I do not believe this was done for decorative purposes. I believe it was written this way to preserve the original form. The Masoretic is an Assyrian block script which came back from Babylon with Ezra and Nehemiah.

The largest collection of ancient Hebrew texts in North America can be found at Michigan State University and they are in the process of digitizing the collection for viewing online.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

The Samaritan Pentateuch is written in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet. The entire Torah had to have been written in it originally. It is generally agreed that Ezra switched the writing tradition and rewrote the Torah (and the rest of the books that had been incorporated by his time) in the square script of Aramaic.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I'm not going to argue this since there is no proof one way or the other but I will give my uneducated opinion.

The original languages and alphabets were given to man, not developed by man. Why do we see so little writing before a certain time? I am guessing the time most people turned to writing was when the languages were mixed. Before that time, everybody lived a long time and all spoke the same language, so there was little need for written material to convey information to future generations.

I think the original Hebrew was based on word pictures. As the language changed and words were added to the language, that started to change also.

Question: Is there any proof that paleo-Hebrew was phonetic and not pictographic?

What you’ve written here really is an uneducated opinion. The first writing systems were completely pictographic (like Egyptian hieroglyphics). Phoenician (what came to be “Paleo-Hebrew” through adoption) was phonetic. How do I know that it was phonetic? Because I can read it! The language of Paleo-Hebrew is the same language that we speak today in Israel, with some minor variations. I have read the tunnel inscription in Jerusalem that was etched by Hezekiah. I have read the Mesha Stele written in Moabite, which is essentially identical to old Hebrew. I’ve dealt with these inscriptions that are written in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, and it is no educated opinion that anyone who would attempt to turn ancient Hebrew into pictograms would make nonsense of the language.

Trust me as someone who hasn’t just begun to study Hebrew that I know what I’m talking about. And your thinking about the development of language in a general sense is also way off. Languages have undergone development. They were not given as a gift. They have gone through natural development through use and migration, as we can see with the divide between British and American English – and indeed to distinction of the various Romance languages that came from Latin. These things are within the perview of written history, and they cannot be denied. All languages, though we do not have records of every step, have gone through similar changes – including Hebrew.

 

[mishkan]

I would disagree with Moses never seeing this script. The paleo and ancient Hebrew script was most likely read and used by Abraham. What script did Shem and Noah use? Surely there were writings passed from Adam to Noah, and surely there were writings passed from Noah to his descendants. It is in man's nature to write. Moses never saw or read the Masoretic text.


The Torah was most certainly written in the ancient Hebrew script and is preserved by the Samaritan people, descendants of Joseph. YHWH is written in the script the same way it is preserved in the Masoretic text. I do not believe this was done for decorative purposes. I believe it was written this way to preserve the original form. The Masoretic is an Assyrian block script which came back from Babylon with Ezra and Nehemiah.


The largest collection of ancient Hebrew texts in North America can be found at Michigan State University and they are in the process of digitizing the collection for viewing online.

I stand corrected. Apparently, I picked up some incorrect notions of what is meant by "Paleo" Hebrew.

Thanks.

 

[GuardianShua]

I would disagree with Moses never seeing this script. The paleo and ancient Hebrew script was most likely read and used by Abraham. What script did Shem and Noah use? Surely there were writings passed from Adam to Noah, and surely there were writings passed from Noah to his descendants. It is in man's nature to write. Moses never saw or read the Masoretic text.

The Torah was most certainly written in the ancient Hebrew script and is preserved by the Samaritan people, descendants of Joseph. YHWH is written in the script the same way it is preserved in the Masoretic text. I do not believe this was done for decorative purposes. I believe it was written this way to preserve the original form. The Masoretic is an Assyrian block script which came back from Babylon with Ezra and Nehemiah.

The largest collection of ancient Hebrew texts in North America can be found at Michigan State University and they are in the process of digitizing the collection for viewing online.

This statement can not be confirmed, but there is a possibility that Enoch through to Abraham may have used cuneiform. When Abraham lived in Babylon cuneiform was in use there.

 

[dnc101]

I was listening to a Pastor earlier rail against the Hebrew Roots movement. One of things he said was that the understanding of Paleohebrew pictographs came from the Kabbalah. Since I am just learning Hebrew and have been looking at some of that, I need help with discernment. I have enjoyed learning what names really mean when the pictograph of the letters has been put together. But, I don't want to get sucked down the path of Kabbalah either.

Please tell me what you think.

I'm not qualified to get in the debate about the language here, so I'll just say I agree mostly with talmidim. But a lot of good info to think about all around.

As to the pastor you were listening to, it sounds like he is railing against something he has no understanding of. That is a polite way of saying he is lying. I've run into this attitude a lot from "Christians." They can't argue against the truth of the Word when it is pointed out, so they make false accusations, try to shut down debate, and engage in lashon hara against what so clearly threatens them. When it is just one person, it is one thing. But for a pastor to do this from the pulpit is wrong.

What I think is that you waste your time and pollute your mind listening to this man. If he is willing to lie so obviously about several things in this sermon, he will do it in others as well. Almost certainly it would be wrong to give to his ministry. Not telling you where to give, but I reevaluate my giving (tithes and otherwise) often based on things like you've described.

Dan C

 

[pat34lee]

What you’ve written here really is an uneducated opinion. The first writing systems were completely pictographic (like Egyptian hieroglyphics). Phoenician (what came to be “Paleo-Hebrew” through adoption) was phonetic. How do I know that it was phonetic? Because I can read it! The language of Paleo-Hebrew is the same language that we speak today in Israel, with some minor variations. I have read the tunnel inscription in Jerusalem that was etched by Hezekiah. I have read the Mesha Stele written in Moabite, which is essentially identical to old Hebrew. I’ve dealt with these inscriptions that are written in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, and it is no educated opinion that anyone who would attempt to turn ancient Hebrew into pictograms would make nonsense of the language.

Trust me as someone who hasn’t just begun to study Hebrew that I know what I’m talking about. And your thinking about the development of language in a general sense is also way off. Languages have undergone development. They were not given as a gift. They have gone through natural development through use and migration, as we can see with the divide between British and American English – and indeed to distinction of the various Romance languages that came from Latin. These things are within the perview of written history, and they cannot be denied. All languages, though we do not have records of every step, have gone through similar changes – including Hebrew.

Part of my post talked about the language changing over time. That is a given. We discussed that before. Languages tend to stagnate or degenerate. They do not evolve. Languages have been complete and complex from their beginning. Has there ever been a half-language found; one that is just developing rules for grammar and pronunciation with no parent language?

People can read Egyptian and Chinese. They are still pictographic scripts. How can we know that the original Hebrew was not strictly pictographic or a combination of pictographic and phonetic? Many, if not most of the ancient words in Hebrew have meanings that tie in with the meaning of the root words' letters. Later words brought into the language did not necessarily follow the same pattern. By the time they were using middle or late Hebrew, probably few if any new word meanings tied in with their letters' meanings.