Sabbath?

[mrs94]

My friend,

If you read the entire NT carefully you cannot fail to see the very many and very consistent teaching about the New Covenant replacing the Old. Thus many customary Jewish practices under Torah were no longer directly applicable for the new community, including holy days, kosher foods, circumcision and temple. The entire books of Romans, Galatians and Hebrews are on that general theme - the New now has replaced the Old.

Hanging on to one aspect, Sabbath, while missing the very much larger picture is just poor exegesis. Your statement "yet some little vague verses in the NT somehow undo it?" is a plank in one's eye as far as I understand your statement quoted above. Circumcision and kosher food were just as much fundamental components of Jewish life as was Sabbath keeping.

John
NZ

Don't mistake me for SDA...I am Messianic. I believe NONE of the Law was done away with. What I am saying is that a vague verse here and there in the NT is used to somehow "undo" what God made clear in the Old. That includes the dietary, festivals, Sabbath, etc. Christians have tried to understand Hebraic thought with a Greek mindset. As long as they do that, much of the scriptures will remain misunderstood.

Acts 21:
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will[c] hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,[d] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.

Wait, what? Paul was being accused of not keeping Torah and the brethren told him what to do to show people that was not true and he did it? What?

Second issue to point out of this scripture is the 3 DIETARY restrictions that were given to Gentiles.

Scripture is pretty clear if you just read it.

 

[visionary]

components of Rabbi Yeshua life too.. whom you declare to be emulating...hmmm

 

[ricker]

Yes, set money aside on the first day because 1. it could be seen as a "firstfruits" if it's given first and 2. so money didn't change hands on the Sabbath as is customary since it might be considered work.

Where does this verse show that Sabbath became Sunday again?

Grasping at straws, I see.

Nice diversion, the Sabbath never was changed to Sunday, it just became obsolete.

Money wasn't/isn't given on the Sabbath/ Sunday for offerings? Good one. I'd like to see documentation of that!

Where would you find the idea of "firstfruits" being associated with a day? Why would a person gather together their offerings on Sunday and hold them until the Sabbath meeting? Read the Bible for what it says!

 

[mrs94]

Grasping at straws, I see.

Nice diversion, the Sabbath never was changed to Sunday, it just became obsolete.

Proof?

Money wasn't/isn't given on the Sabbath/ Sunday for offerings? Good one. I'd like to see documentation of that!

No, you really wouldn't. If you were really interested you wouldn't insist that Sabbath was done away with as the Word of the Lord clearly says over and over again, that it will be FOREVER.

Where would you find the idea of "firstfruits" being associated with a day? Why would a person gather together their offerings on Sunday and hold them until the Sabbath meeting? Read the Bible for what it says!

Study the feasts of the Lord. Firstfruits is one...the day that Yeshua rose on. Just like Sabbath, which God made on the seventh day...it will be celebrated forever. YOU can change Sabbath, but God didn't.

Let's look at that scripture again.

1Cor 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Actually, they held their collections til Paul got there.

Would you like to actually debate scripture? And, any thoughts on the post that I posted previously proving Paul followed Mosaic Law? See Acts 21.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Study the feasts of the Lord. Firstfruits is one...the day that Yeshua rose on. Just like Sabbath, which God made on the seventh day...it will be celebrated forever. YOU can change Sabbath, but God didn't.

Let's look at that scripture again.

1Cor 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Actually, they held their collections til Paul got there.

Would you like to actually debate scripture? And, any thoughts on the post that I posted previously proving Paul followed Mosaic Law? See Acts 21.

but we aren't under the mosic law we are under the law of grace. we can't follow the old law. That's why Jesus died to make a new convent

 

[SayaOtonashi]

.for if there had been a Law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the Law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the Law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor" (Galatians 3:21–24)

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Jesus fulfilled the law so we are no longer under the mosic law.

Christ was born while the law was in force (Galatians 4.4).
b. Christ completed the requirements of the law while he was on earth. He obeyed it perfectly (Matthew 5.17-19; Romans 10.4; Galatians 3.13; Colossians 2.13-14; Hebrews 8-10).
c. Christ removed the need for the Mosaic Law or the Old Covenant. Therefore the purpose and force of the Mosaic Law ended with Christ (Ephesians 2.15-16; Hebrews 8-10).
8. How is the Church related to the Law?
a. The law was never given to the church. The church is not supposed to live under the Mosaic Law (Acts 15.5-29; Romans 3.21-22; 7.6; 2 Corinthians 3.7-11; Galatians 2.21; 5.1-13).
b. The unbeliever Jew may think that he is now under the law, but the believer Jew of the church age is now a part of the church and is not under the law (same church Scripture and 1 Corinthians 10.32).

 

[SayaOtonashi]

You have to reject that Jesus set a new convent.

"Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David. Behold, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. (Isaiah 55:3-4)

Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,...But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Jeremiah 31:31) Establishes a new covenant for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. (Luke 22:20)

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises... For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people. (Hebrews 8:6-10)

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Establishes a new covenant meaning that Mosic law is unless for Christians. Also you probably don't follow all the Mosaic Laws. For example a brother marrying his sister in law if his brother didn't have kids when his brother died was stopped by Jesus .In the Mosic Law it's accept . The Mosic Law goes beyond the ten commands it's mostly all the laws about you can stone a kid death for dishonoring parent.God allowed polygamy in the old testament. Lev, Deut are examples of the Mosaic Law.Jesus himself said he will make a new covenant so why say the Mosaic Law is in a effect

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Rom. 7:6 he says, “We have been released from the Law.” And in Col. 2:14 Paul declares that Christ took the Law out of our way and “nailed it to the cross.” Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law (Matt.5:17) which he did by his death on the cross.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1355-is-the-law-of-moses-torah-still-binding

The ten commands aren't the old covenant but rather all the books until the new testments are the old covenant. We muold st be perfect to follow all the covenant which is not the 10 commands but more than that it;s all the laws given with in the old covenant which you must follow. If you fail to do that then you have sinned for trying to keep that law.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Again Jesus was sent to die for own sins and to make a law of grace.
Are Followers of Jesus Under the Law or Grace?.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Grasping at straws, I see.

Nice diversion, the Sabbath never was changed to Sunday, it just became obsolete.

Money wasn't/isn't given on the Sabbath/ Sunday for offerings? Good one. I'd like to see documentation of that!

Where would you find the idea of "firstfruits" being associated with a day? Why would a person gather together their offerings on Sunday and hold them until the Sabbath meeting? Read the Bible for what it says!

Exactly when did the Sabbath lose it's blessing?

 

[mrs94]

Again Jesus was sent to die for own sins and to make a law of grace.
Are Followers of Jesus Under the Law or Grace?.

Sorry, Saya...I'm sure buried in this thread...most of these scriptures were addressed somewhere. I know that I've addressed several of them already. I simply do not have the time to keep going around in circles. If you would like to talk via PM, I'm up for that.

I will ask you this and please do not misunderstand me, I am not ignoring Paul, but can you prove your case using Jesus' Words or just the Old Testament...because Paul and the rest of the initial apostles could do that.

 

[mrs94]

On second thought...I'll just post a new thread

 

[ricker]

Study the feasts of the Lord. Firstfruits is one...the day that Yeshua rose on. Just like Sabbath, which God made on the seventh day...it will be celebrated forever. YOU can change Sabbath, but God didn't.

Let's look at that scripture again.

1Cor 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Actually, they held their collections til Paul got there.

Would you like to actually debate scripture? And, any thoughts on the post that I posted previously proving Paul followed Mosaic Law? See Acts 21.

You still haven't given a reason why these "firstfruits" should be gathered on the first day of the week, or if the Gentile churches ever followed the Old Covenant law concerning them.

 

[mrs94]

You still haven't given a reason why these "firstfruits" should be gathered on the first day of the week, or if the Gentile churches ever followed the Old Covenant law concerning them.

I didn't say that this HAD to be done as a "firstfruits" but that it was probably done as a "type of firstfruits". There were a lot of Jewish people in these congregations and they were still doing things the way they had always done them. But, still, how does this prove that Sabbath was changed to Sunday...just because they were gathering together and collected money? We do that now....you're reading your experienes into the Bible.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Again Jesus was sent to die for own sins and to make a law of grace.
Are Followers of Jesus Under the Law or Grace?.

How were people saved in the old testament? Was it though grace?

 

[ricker]

I didn't say that this HAD to be done as a "firstfruits" but that it was probably done as a "type of firstfruits". There were a lot of Jewish people in these congregations and they were still doing things the way they had always done them. But, still, how does this prove that Sabbath was changed to Sunday...just because they were gathering together and collected money? We do that now....you're reading your experienes into the Bible.

Your making a rather large assumption if you think everyone thinks the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. I couldn't disagree with you more, and so does the Augsburg Confession of 1530, pretty much the defining document of the Protestant movement.

For those who judge that by the authority of the Church the observance of the Lord's Day instead of the Sabbath-day was ordained as a thing necessary, do greatly err. Scripture has abrogated the Sabbath-day; for it teaches that, since the Gospel has been revealed, all the ceremonies of Moses can be omitted. And yet, because it was necessary to appoint a certain day, that the people might know when they ought to come together, it appears that the Church designated the Lord's Day for this purpose; and this day seems to have been chosen all the more for this additional reason, that men might have an example of Christian liberty, and might know that the keeping neither of the Sabbath nor of any other day is necessary.

 

[mrs94]

Your making a rather large assumption if you think everyone thinks the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. I couldn't disagree with you more, and so does the Augsburg Confession of 1530, pretty much the defining document of the Protestant movement.

Ok, so, there's 2 camps. The ones that claim Sabbath was changed and the ones that claim that Sabbath was done away with.

I have posted a plethora of scriptures in which Elohim says that Sabbath was to be kept forever AND scriptures that show that some of the festivals will be kept during the millenium. Do you know the ones that I am talking about?

These threads get to large and posts get lost.