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God or What?

Dave Ellis

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Thank you for the suggestion. Without having read it, it still seems that something had to exist originally. Maybe it was everything, or maybe it was enough of something to allow development into everything. I do not know. How big is the read? I would probably shy away from a massive undertaking.

The Audiobook is about 5.5 hours long... I listened to it over a few days while doing other stuff. You miss out on some diagrams that he'd have within the book itself, however they aren't really needed to understand the subject matter.

You can get it on iTunes, I think I paid about $11 for it.


Thank you. That is a much better explanation than mine. I do understand that, but I also thought there were instances of more than one species developing from a common origin. The development occurring over millions of years, of course, but still having the same the ancestor. It has been many years since I studied any of this with enthusiasm, so I am working off an old memory.

Right, in fact genetically we have determined that all living things come from a common ancestor at some point.

To expand on my example, say you had a population of wolves living on one side of a river that is impossible to cross. However, there happened to be a really cold winter and the river formed an ice dam, and dried up for a week or two, allowing things to cross.

Once the ice dam breaks and the river refills, you have two populations that will never be able to interbreed with each other, because they can't get to each other. So, over time the population on one side of the river will evolve one way, while the population on the other side will evolve differently. Eventually they will have diverged enough that even if they came back into contact, their DNA is too incompatible to breed even if they wanted to. That's called speciation, two organisms that can't interbreed are considered two different species.

Basically all you need is a natural feature that will create two or more separate populations of a species that can't interbreed in order for those populations to diverge from each other.
 
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quatona

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I do not understand your problem with the suggestion. Are you supposing that there was no beginning? If so, I have considered the same. Everything may have always existed, and it may simply change over time. Did I misunderstand you again?
I have no idea, and I didn´t mean to suggest any explanation.
All I meant to say was: Replacing "I don´t know" by the term "God" isn´t an explanation. Unless you give any specifics as to what you mean by God it isn´t even a concept.
 
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madaz

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but I also thought there were instances of more than one species developing from a common origin. The development occurring over millions of years, of course, but still having the same the ancestor.

That is correct, I highly recommend downloading this graphical representation of the tree of life. It is called the Hillis plot, it has 3000 species which have all had their genome sequenced to produce this wonderful tree of life. It shows the breaks in the lineage. You can download it here-

http://www.zo.utexas.edu/faculty/antisense/tree.pdf

The kingdoms can be easily read however you will need to zoom in to be able to read the name of each of the species. It only represents a small percentage of species but it is a good start involving years of work with powerful computers to get this far.
 
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KCfromNC

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If that satisfies your need for proof, I am happy for you. To me, that shows nothing more than the fact that you are throwing dice. The numbers turn up as they do and are controlled by whatever controls them.

So what similar experiment can I use to demonstrate the effects of your creator?

Everyone is not satisfied with God as the answer. In my original post, I stated that I have considered the possibility of no common origin and of multiple sources of the origin. For me, those did not work, but that in no way means that I am attempting to limit what others think. I believe that adding God into the mix accounts for existence, and I am only looking at others' opinions concerning existence. Nothing more.

Again, just curious what you think adding god to the mix actually explains. Seems like if you go from unknown to an unknowable all-powerful entity with mysterious motives you're not really saying something different.
 
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SithDoughnut

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What, other than randomness or purpose could account for existence? Some things that I have thrown around are that everything has always existed, that nothing actually exists now, that there is no common origin and multiple sources exists, and a few other equally dissatisfying ideas.

Have you ever considered "I don't know"?

Not everything has an answer currently, and we don't need to cling to whatever answer is available just so we can have one. The God hypothesis goes no further than "God did it". That's not an explanation, that's a guess. A very simple answer is that you don't know of one at the moment.
 
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Max S Cherry

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So what similar experiment can I use to demonstrate the effects of your creator?

I am not trying to offer proof, as I said in the original post. My intention with this thread was not to argue for any point in particular. I stated what I think, and I asked others to tell me what they think. It is my curiosity running amok and nothing more. What I said about randomness has nothing to do with proving anything in particular. I consider the problem with proof to be the primary (if not only) factor contributing to the existence of beliefs. You stated your dice experiment as if it proved randomness, and I was merely stating that it was not proof enough for me.

Again, just curious what you think adding god to the mix actually explains. Seems like if you go from unknown to an unknowable all-powerful entity with mysterious motives you're not really saying something different.

For me, it provides the answer. True, it is not through knowledge but belief. Perhaps, it does not move anywhere different to you, but for me, it does.

I think people took this thread's purpose to be declarative or even argumentative, but it really is just interrogative.
 
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Max S Cherry

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Have you ever considered "I don't know"?

Not everything has an answer currently, and we don't need to cling to whatever answer is available just so we can have one. The God hypothesis goes no further than "God did it". That's not an explanation, that's a guess. A very simple answer is that you don't know of one at the moment.

Certainly. As an agnostic man, "I do not know" is my answer to just about any question. However, I allow my beliefs to guide some things.

I think your response is a sensible as any.
 
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quatona

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Certainly. As an agnostic man, "I do not know" is my answer to just about any question. However, I allow my beliefs to guide some things.
Could you provide some practical examples in which your belief that the existence of the universe has been intended by some higher power makes a significant difference to the believe that there is no such intention behind it?

I´m asking because in RL I have theists all around me, and whenever we discuss a particular RL issue their theism and my atheism don´t seem to be of any significance for the discussion.
 
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Max S Cherry

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Could you provide some practical examples in which your belief that the existence of the universe has been intended by some higher power makes a significant difference to the believe that there is no such intention behind it?

I do not know if I am reading your question correctly. Are you meaning to ask for examples of how the belief that the universe is intended makes a difference to the belief that there is no intention, or are you meaning to ask for examples of how the belief that the universe is intended is different from the belief that there is no intention?

I´m asking because in RL I have theists all around me, and whenever we discuss a particular RL issue their theism and my atheism don´t seem to be of any significance for the discussion.


Hard to say anything about this because I do not know what real life (I am guessing that RL means real life?) issues you are referring to.
 
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quatona

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I do not know if I am reading your question correctly. Are you meaning to ask for examples of how the belief that the universe is intended makes a difference to the belief that there is no intention, or are you meaning to ask for examples of how the belief that the universe is intended is different from the belief that there is no intention?
The first - and I am not asking for academic differences but for practical differences.




Hard to say anything about this because I do not know what real life (I am guessing that RL means real life?) issues you are referring to.
Yes, RL was meant short for real life.
Pick any practical (not academic or philosophical) issue in regards you feel your distinction (intentional creation vs. unintentional coming about or "having always existed") makes a difference. You were the one who said your belief in intentional creation has consequences - so I am not the one to tell you in which cases it should make a difference. I´m just asking for examples for your statement.
 
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muichimotsu

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Everything has a common origin. For me, I say that the origin is God. He has existed *always*. So my amended point is that everything other than God has a common origin, God. This is as far as I need to go. God's purpose in creating everything else is whatever it is, and His means of doing so were and are whatever they were and are.

In terms of cosmology, this is contested at least in some way on the basis that we only know so much about the origin of our own universe up to the singularity/big bang. Assuming we could make projections in some way beyond that, it does beg a question of infinite regress and a final conclusion to it being a logical necessity. The problem with your claim is that it seems to entail special pleading for an anthropomorphic entity that is remarkably similar in its general properties to humans: it ascribes purpose to things it creates, it makes ethical judgments and proclamations, etc. I would not have a problem with a nonpersonal ground of being, like Paul tillich's theology, albeit it's still unfalsifiable and to an extent unnecessary to a complete metaphysics, since absolute metaphysics would render the discipline pointless, especially if we had certain proof of its truth.

Or....

Everything has a common origin. There is no God to have created anything, so how did everything get here? This is where I have difficulty. Before I was saved, I attributed everything to randomness. It was the most sensible solution I could find that did not break down under questioning. It meant that *stuff* (stuff being the pieces that everything is made from) existed, but randomness was the force acting upon them. Now, I am sitting on the other side looking back at it, and it seems to be loaded with difficulties.

The difficulty here is presuming everything had to be created in that it comes from nothing. If we assume there may have been some chaotic matter prior to the universe and some quantum entity manipulated it, it makes remote sense. The universe itself is not strictly random in that things aren't predictable, since clearly we're not in any real danger of our personal computers exploding as we type our messages to forums or such. The quantum fluctuations or such may have a factor on a subatomic or otherwise unseen level, perhaps the cosmic level to invert things.

As a nonbeliever and naturalist I do not attribute things to randomness, especially not physical things. Interactions or friends or the like could be connected to chance, but that's not the same thing as basic physical and natural laws. You and I interacting here is admittedly random, but the processes that govern the devices we use are not random, but quite predictable.

The difference might be between innate physical processes and laws and coincidental interaction between physical beings that also have the capacity to think and judge, creating interpretations of agency and purpose behind otherwise random events.

First, randomness is as uncertain as God: one can be proven as easily as the other. Second, if randomness is responsible for everything else existing, the times that *creative forces* (I am clearly using the term to suit my needs for lack of knowing a better way) had to line up are astonishing. In fact, it is so astonishing that it becomes even more fantastic than the idea of God.

Indeterminism and a capricious deity are certainly similar, which seems like you're equating a world with your God to a world where gasoline may or may not ignite when it encounters a spark, which would make me paranoid, if not outright insane. Your point is well met in a world of indeterminacy, but if your God is remotely powerful, then we have a world where people have not a care in the world, especially if we had some proof of this deity existing and managing the world. Either one creates problems, either because of excess or deficient uncertainty, which makes life interesting, if not a bit unnerving at times.

Before anyone gets his feathers ruffled, rest assured that I am aware that there are other options, but I do not see an option existing that does not rest on either randomness or purpose.

What, other than randomness or purpose could account for existence? Some things that I have thrown around are that everything has always existed, that nothing actually exists now, that there is no common origin and multiple sources exists, and a few other equally dissatisfying ideas

Randomness in the absolute sense would be one end of the spectrum and absolute purpose would be on the other. Both are probably fairly rare in terms of defended philosophical positions. Most people fall somewhere in between, though potentially leaning towards these two. But a lot of this amounts to the tendency of humans to find agency and purpose behind things that may, in fact, have no such thing.

A tree falling and not killing you, but smashing your house, may be seen as divine protection and have some telos behind it, but it's really just coincidence. The universe's existence is similar, though on a grander scale. It doesn't really have any ultimate purpose, nor do we. I've discussed this in a topic I may revive, but purpose as basically understood is a conceptual thing we appropriate to things, including ourselves. And this is preferable to having preset functions, which would make us automatons. A universe which is predictable, but still has no ultimate purpose is far better than either a predictable universe with ultimate purpose or an unpredictable one with no ultimate purpose.
 
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KCfromNC

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I am not trying to offer proof, as I said in the original post. My intention with this thread was not to argue for any point in particular. I stated what I think, and I asked others to tell me what they think. It is my curiosity running amok and nothing more. What I said about randomness has nothing to do with proving anything in particular. I consider the problem with proof to be the primary (if not only) factor contributing to the existence of beliefs. You stated your dice experiment as if it proved randomness, and I was merely stating that it was not proof enough for me.

Really? You believe that you - or at least someone - can reliably predict what numbers will come up? If so, that person would be making a lot of money in Vegas, for one thing. But yet no one does. Seems like there's lots of similar evidence that the process truly is random. Which means that unlike your original claim, there's a lot more in favor of random processes existing than for God existing.

Whether or not any of this common sense experience is applicable to a "time" before the universe as we know it existed is a much bigger question. I've found that answering "goddidit" tends to shut down exploring the question without adding anything positive.
 
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Max S Cherry

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The first - and I am not asking for academic differences but for practical differences.

I am not sure it makes any difference at all to the other, academic or practical. One is one view, and the other is the other. I do not think the answer can be known, so it is left to what man believes about it. There seem to be three possible responses: one, existence is intended; two, existence is random; or three, existence is partially intended and partially random. Of the three, the last one seems to me to be the oddest, but oddity does not speak to accuracy.

I am not sure that answers your question, but then again, I am not sure I even understood your question. If it seems I misunderstood, how about trying Questions for Dummies? I might be able to understand one of those.


Yes, RL was meant short for real life.
Pick any practical (not academic or philosophical) issue in regards you feel your distinction (intentional creation vs. unintentional coming about or "having always existed") makes a difference. You were the one who said your belief in intentional creation has consequences - so I am not the one to tell you in which cases it should make a difference. I´m just asking for examples for your statement.

Any consequence I list is likely to be considered academic or philosophical, and it is certainly to be considered "other-worldly" or some such. I do not subscribe to a universally accepted definition for what is and what is not real life. Real life to me includes life after death, but I imagine that to be a problem for people who do not believe in an afterlife.

If we limited real life to life on earth (and I am happy to do so if you require it), the only consequences I see arise from man having a purpose as opposed to man having no purpose. A man with a purposeful existence has reason to explore his existence, or in other words, he has a reason to exist/live. A man without a purposeful existence has no reason to explore his existence, or in other words, he has no reason to exist/live. A man with a purposeful existence is here for a reason obviously, but obviously, a man without a purposeful existence is a random occurrence.

Clearly, my understanding of this is personalized as it must be, and I do not anticipate others sharing my understanding. I suspect others will personalize their understanding, and they may find purpose without intent. I do not understand the position, but I understand that the position can exist.

Again, if I did not answer your question, it is from a lack of understanding what you are asking rather than a lack of trying. I am not sure how this pertains to the original question though, and I understood your position to be among the "I do not know" or perhaps the "I do not care" positions. There is nothing wrong with either of those positions, and I offered no argument against either of them. Your posts seem argumentative to me, and I am not sure why you feel/think that arguments are necessary in this thread. If I have taken your comments out of context, I apologize.
 
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Max S Cherry

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The problem with your claim...

I apologize if my intention for the thread was not clearly stated. There is no problem with my claim just as there are no problems with anyone's claim. I only wanted to see what people think/believe about existence, and it was never my intention to defend a particular claim or dispute any other claims.

...In terms of cosmology, this is contested at least in some way on the basis that we only know so much about the origin of our own universe up to the singularity/big bang...

As a nonbeliever and naturalist I do not attribute things to randomness, especially not physical things...

...but purpose as basically understood is a conceptual thing we appropriate to things, including ourselves. And this is preferable to having preset functions, which would make us automatons. A universe which is predictable, but still has no ultimate purpose is far better than either a predictable universe with ultimate purpose or an unpredictable one with no ultimate purpose.

I am not sure of your stated position. There seems to be several ideas present. Can you compress the thought a bit?
 
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Max S Cherry

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Really? You believe that you - or at least someone - can reliably predict what numbers will come up?

I did not say anything of the sort. I said that I did not know if randomness controlled the numbers that come up. Those are two different statements.

Seems like there's lots of similar evidence that the process truly is random.

Similar evidence, even in great amounts, do not equal proof. Evidence is evidence and nothing more.

Which means that unlike your original claim, there's a lot more in favor of random processes existing than for God existing.

I never claimed that there was any evidence of God's existence, and I did not claim that God's existence could be proven.

Whether or not any of this common sense experience is applicable to a "time" before the universe as we know it existed is a much bigger question. I've found that answering "goddidit" tends to shut down exploring the question without adding anything positive.

I figure each person will answer the question of how what exists came to exist in his own way, and that is the reason I started the thread.
 
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Loudmouth

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For me, it provides the answer. True, it is not through knowledge but belief. Perhaps, it does not move anywhere different to you, but for me, it does.

Why does it provide an answer? How is that answer useful for understanding how the universe came to be?

Or is it just emotionally satisfying?
 
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quatona

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I am not sure it makes any difference at all to the other, academic or practical. One is one view, and the other is the other. I do not think the answer can be known, so it is left to what man believes about it. There seem to be three possible responses: one, existence is intended; two, existence is random; or three, existence is partially intended and partially random. Of the three, the last one seems to me to be the oddest, but oddity does not speak to accuracy.

I am not sure that answers your question, but then again, I am not sure I even understood your question. If it seems I misunderstood, how about trying Questions for Dummies? I might be able to understand one of those.




Any consequence I list is likely to be considered academic or philosophical, and it is certainly to be considered "other-worldly" or some such. I do not subscribe to a universally accepted definition for what is and what is not real life. Real life to me includes life after death, but I imagine that to be a problem for people who do not believe in an afterlife.

If we limited real life to life on earth (and I am happy to do so if you require it), the only consequences I see arise from man having a purpose as opposed to man having no purpose. A man with a purposeful existence has reason to explore his existence, or in other words, he has a reason to exist/live. A man without a purposeful existence has no reason to explore his existence, or in other words, he has no reason to exist/live. A man with a purposeful existence is here for a reason obviously, but obviously, a man without a purposeful existence is a random occurrence.

Clearly, my understanding of this is personalized as it must be, and I do not anticipate others sharing my understanding. I suspect others will personalize their understanding, and they may find purpose without intent. I do not understand the position, but I understand that the position can exist.

Again, if I did not answer your question, it is from a lack of understanding what you are asking rather than a lack of trying. I am not sure how this pertains to the original question though, and I understood your position to be among the "I do not know" or perhaps the "I do not care" positions. There is nothing wrong with either of those positions, and I offered no argument against either of them. Your posts seem argumentative to me, and I am not sure why you feel/think that arguments are necessary in this thread. If I have taken your comments out of context, I apologize.
Thanks for putting so much effort in in trying. Much appreciated!

I don´t know what about my posts seems argumentative to you, but rest assured they aren´t. I´m completely relaxed - I am just having a question.
To tell from your response: Yes, apparently my question didn´t come across clearly. I don´t know how to put it any simpler, so I will try to be a bit more exhaustive in explaining.

You and I appeared to have agnosticism in common regarding the question "Is there an intentional force behind the universe or not?" - i.e. we both don´t know and think we can´t know.
What surprised me and prompted my question was your remark:
As an agnostic man, "I do not know" is my answer to just about any question. However, I allow my beliefs to guide some things.
(emphasis added)

I interprete this as saying that your belief that there is an intentional force behind the universe guides you in some things, i..e. that you would lead your life differently, make different decisions, act differently etc. than you would if you didn´t hold that belief.
Personally, I can´t imagine what these things are that this belief guides you in (if I held the belief that there is an intentional force behind the universe I would do just the same as I would if I believed there wasn´t).
So this is my question to you:
What are those things in which your belief that there´s an intentional force behind the universe guides you in? What about your life, your actions, your decisions would be different if you didn´t hold this belief?
 
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Max S Cherry

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Why does it provide an answer? How is that answer useful for understanding how the universe came to be?

It provides the answer to "where did existence come from" (or phrased in some way). The answer is God. I am not sure that it is useful in understanding the "how" it came to be.

Or is it just emotionally satisfying?

It is emotionally satisfying for sure. I am not saying that is all there is to it, but that is certainly an element.
 
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muichimotsu

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I am not sure of your stated position. There seems to be several ideas present. Can you compress the thought a bit?

I'll try, no promises it'll make any more sense afterwards


...In terms of cosmology, this is contested at least in some way on the basis that we only know so much about the origin of our own universe up to the singularity/big bang...

You said everything is alleged to have a common origin, but the difficulty comes in when we talk about the beginning of the universe, more particularly, this universe, if we're presuming there is a possibility of multiverse theory being true. But even if we accepted the common origin thesis, the question remains as to whether that origin is conscious or simply a natural force.

As a nonbeliever and naturalist I do not attribute things to randomness, especially not physical things...

You seemed to misrepresent atheists and such as attributing all things to randomness, which is certainly untrue when it comes to physical and material things, such as the computers we use, the lights, electricity, those sorts of things. Chance meetings, etc, that's different. Like if I met someone at a convention and we eventually married or some such thing.

...but purpose as basically understood is a conceptual thing we appropriate to things, including ourselves. And this is preferable to having preset functions, which would make us automatons. A universe which is predictable, but still has no ultimate purpose is far better than either a predictable universe with ultimate purpose or an unpredictable one with no ultimate purpose.

You seem to be giving something purpose that doesn't necessarily require it. The universe existing is something that preceded humans, one could claim, so the idea of purpose in the sense of giving a goal and function to something only arguably came about with human consciousness. That's the core of my problem: giving purpose and telos to things that don't need nor require it in and of themselves.
 
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Max S Cherry

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I don´t know what about my posts seems argumentative to you, but rest assured they aren´t. I´m completely relaxed - I am just having a question.

No problem at all. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

To tell from your response: Yes, apparently my question didn´t come across clearly. I don´t know how to put it any simpler, so I will try to be a bit more exhaustive in explaining.

Yeah, I told you I might need the question for dummies version!

You and I appeared to have agnosticism in common regarding the question "Is there an intentional force behind the universe or not?" - i.e. we both don´t know and think we can´t know.

You are correct. On that, we agree.

What surprised me and prompted my question was your remark: "As an agnostic man, "I do not know" is my answer to just about any question. However, I allow my beliefs to guide some things."

Gotcha now. I am slow on most days, and down right not smart on others.

I interprete this as saying that your belief that there is an intentional force behind the universe guides you in some things, i..e. that you would lead your life differently, make different decisions, act differently etc. than you would if you didn´t hold that belief.

I am seeing more clearly now.

Personally, I can´t imagine what these things are that this belief guides you in (if I held the belief that there is an intentional force behind the universe I would do just the same as I would if I believed there wasn´t).

Many people would no doubt share your confusion.

So this is my question to you:
What are those things in which your belief that there´s an intentional force behind the universe guides you in? What about your life, your actions, your decisions would be different if you didn´t hold this belief?

YES! I can finally answer your question. Whew. I was afraid that old age was getting the best of me.

The easy answer is "most everything" would be different and in fact was different when I lived strictly according to my agnostic thinking. I will not leave it at the easy answer, because you deserve more than that just for putting up with me.

Before I was saved, I did not have any morals unless one actually considers egoism to be a real morality which I have my doubts about now and did even when I adhered to the principles of self-interest alone. The ramifications of this I know are clear, but to highlight some of the more dangerous ones, I did not recognize crime, any value outside what I could personally experience, or even the right of others to be egoists. I behaved without conscience. I am one of the people others joke about when they say, "We need to make sure he is in church on time."

I could not believe that God exists (in the way I believe He exists) and maintain that He is not the "intentional force" behind existence.

Does that answer your question?
 
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