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The 2 witnesses in Revelation

Mazock

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I think the two witnesses will have some choice words for ALL denominations of the Christian faith. The church as a whole is too enshrined in tradition, just at the Pharisees were condemned for nullifying the law by following Talmudic tradition.

The two witnesses will most probably be rejected by the vast majority of Christians, because they will insist on holding onto their traditions.

So I certainly don't see Martin Luther of Billy Graham as the witnesses.

In fact,

I'm Anti-Pauline. I believe the witnesses will confirm my beliefs, and unfortunately the majority of today's churches would never reject Paul. They even allegorize Yeshua's words in order to justify Paul's teachings. (As opposed to bringing Paul's teachings in line with Yeshua)

Just think about that. Its such a controversial concept, and runs against everything we've been taught. I certainly had difficulty coming to that conclusion.

IF, we are still here, look for two actual MEN who can perform miracles, and pretty much be rejected by the ENTIRE world (Jewish, Christian, etc..) Because they will be speaking for God, and our flesh will not want to listen.
 
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Balshan

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The two witnesses were and are Martin Luther King and Billy Graham.

Their discussion in Heaven pertains to whether man follows reason or order, when witnessing to the truth.

The outcome of that discussion has not yet been fully realized, but will in my lifetime (of another 40 years) be realized.

Even though you have quoted two believers when we use terms like reason and order these are subjective ideals and are not absolute truth. We have no idea what they are discussing in heaven, so that is also a very subjective idea.
 
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Balshan

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On the two witnesses.. it occurred to me... one of the most significant things about Moses and Elijah was the message they brought with them and guess what both are in the warnings of Revelation...

Moses was all for getting the people out of Egypt and leading them to the Promised Land.



Elijah's message was on the worship aspect.
H

Thoughtful concept. Don't you think the message has always been escape out of sin, repent and follow the Lord.

Moses' last message was remember where God has brought you out from and don't forget to follow Ha Shem. Elijah don't be deceived by the false gods around you, there is only One, follow Him.

Worship is more that ritual sacrifice it is how we live every moment of the day.

The message the two witnesses will bring will be the same as the one in the Tanakh and the one Yeshua gave us. Repent and follow God, Yeshua is the way.

When will the world take notice and follow the message, unfortunately, even those who live with Yeshua reigning for a thousand years fall when given the chance. If the reign is correct interpretation of Revelation. There is nothing new under the sun.
 
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yedida

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Even though you have quoted two believers when we use terms like reason and order these are subjective ideals and are not absolute truth. We have no idea what they are discussing in heaven, so that is also a very subjective idea.


linked to wrong post
 
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yedida

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The two witnesses were and are Martin Luther King and Billy Graham.

Their discussion in Heaven pertains to whether man follows reason or order, when witnessing to the truth.

The outcome of that discussion has not yet been fully realized, but will in my lifetime (of another 40 years) be realized.

another stupid error on my part!! I need new glasses again!! oy vey
 
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Balshan

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Where is this Billy Graham and Martin Luther discussion?

I didn't think it was a serious contribution to the discussion on who the two witness will be. Of course I maybe wrong. What are the reasons these two names were proposed as the two witness, what makes them suitable to be the two witness? If you go along these lines, it could be Mother Theresa, Mary Slessor to add to the mix.
 
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Ryan L

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Hello. New here, but have been lurking around for awhile. This thread and the other 26 pages of speculation about who the Two Witnesses are has perked my interest. Growing up, I loved reading commentary on Revelation, and dreamed I was one of the two. With awesome, God given powers like that, who wouldn't want to be one of them? Sadly, I have accepted I will not be one of the two. Our rabbitzen at a bible study dropped who she thought the two were, and it floored me. So I studied it out, and would like to give a cliff notes version of who the two may be with permission. I believe, although not definitive, scriptures point to who they are more so than Martin Luther or Billy Graham (lol).
 
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yedida

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Hello. New here, but have been lurking around for awhile. This thread and the other 26 pages of speculation about who the Two Witnesses are has perked my interest. Growing up, I loved reading commentary on Revelation, and dreamed I was one of the two. With awesome, God given powers like that, who wouldn't want to be one of them? Sadly, I have accepted I will not be one of the two. Our rabbitzen at a bible study dropped who she thought the two were, and it floored me. So I studied it out, and would like to give a cliff notes version of who the two may be with permission. I believe, although not definitive, scriptures point to who they are more so than Martin Luther or Billy Graham (lol).


Rocky and Bullwinkel are as likely than those two, lol. :p
Share away! I'm intrigued. :wave:
 
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Ryan L

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Rocky and Bullwinkel are as likely than those two, lol. :p
Share away! I'm intrigued. :wave:

Thank you. I believe the Two Witnesses are Gabriel and Michael.

Revelations 11:1-3 “Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the] temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses…”

Where else do you find this parallel passage?

Zechariah 2:1-3 “Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 So I said, “Where are you going?” And he said to me, “To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it is and how long it is.” 3 And behold, the angel who was speaking with me was going out, and another angel was coming out to meet him,”

Hmmm…looks a bit suspicious here. This isn’t proof right here, but the comparisons are undeniable.

Revelations 11:4 “4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.”

Again look at the parallel in Zechariah 4:

Zechariah 4:1-2 “He said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.”

And further on asking a second time who these olive trees are:

Zechariah 4:11-14 “11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

But how do we know they are Michael and Gabriel? Let’s go back to where we first find 2 olive trees.

1 Kings 6:23 “ Also in the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim [angels] of olive wood, each ten cubits high.”

This is speaking of the sanctuary and what does it tell us about the earthly being an image of?

Hebrews 8:5 “who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain”

The pattern on earth was a direct replica of what it looked like in the heavenlies. Now Zacharias while performing his priestly duties was met by an angel, and what did he say?

Luke 1:19 “And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God…”

There were only 2 angels ever named in the bible (not including lucifer). And what does Gabriel say about Michael?

Daniel 10:21 “However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince”

Knowing there were 2 angels in the sanctuary, and Gabriel being one, Michael must be the other as this passage means they stand together against the forces. I don’t know of anywhere else in the bible of anybody, Moses, Elijah, Enoch as being referenced as the olive trees. I believe these passages speak that the two witnesses will be two angels. Gabriel and most likely Michael. Michael is the leader of God’s armies Revelation 12:7 and his name means asked as a rhetorical question, Who is like God? Gabriel means, Strong man of God?

But the're angels, and not human? Angels can take on human form and there are many examples of such.

Genesis 18:22 “Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord.”
Genesis 19:1 “Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.”
Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.”

This is the cliff notes, but I don’t see how the scriptures point to these 2 more then say Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Mr. Graham. For a more in depth teaching, I provided the url address below but I can't post links so you have to www it yourselves. Interesting, even if not 100% sure of it.

plaza1.net/Anthony/twowitnesses3.pdf
 
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Balshan

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Hello. New here, but have been lurking around for awhile. This thread and the other 26 pages of speculation about who the Two Witnesses are has perked my interest. Growing up, I loved reading commentary on Revelation, and dreamed I was one of the two. With awesome, God given powers like that, who wouldn't want to be one of them? Sadly, I have accepted I will not be one of the two. Our rabbitzen at a bible study dropped who she thought the two were, and it floored me. So I studied it out, and would like to give a cliff notes version of who the two may be with permission. I believe, although not definitive, scriptures point to who they are more so than Martin Luther or Billy Graham (lol).

Welcome to the discussion, feel free to share.
 
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visionary

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Thank you. I believe the Two Witnesses are Gabriel and Michael.

Revelations 11:1-3 “Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the] temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses…”

Where else do you find this parallel passage?

Zechariah 2:1-3 “Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 So I said, “Where are you going?” And he said to me, “To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it is and how long it is.” 3 And behold, the angel who was speaking with me was going out, and another angel was coming out to meet him,”

Hmmm…looks a bit suspicious here. This isn’t proof right here, but the comparisons are undeniable.

Revelations 11:4 “4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.”

Again look at the parallel in Zechariah 4:

Zechariah 4:1-2 “He said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.”

And further on asking a second time who these olive trees are:

Zechariah 4:11-14 “11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

But how do we know they are Michael and Gabriel? Let’s go back to where we first find 2 olive trees.

1 Kings 6:23 “ Also in the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim [angels] of olive wood, each ten cubits high.”

This is speaking of the sanctuary and what does it tell us about the earthly being an image of?

Hebrews 8:5 “who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain”

The pattern on earth was a direct replica of what it looked like in the heavenlies. Now Zacharias while performing his priestly duties was met by an angel, and what did he say?

Luke 1:19 “And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God…”

There were only 2 angels ever named in the bible (not including lucifer). And what does Gabriel say about Michael?

Daniel 10:21 “However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince”

Knowing there were 2 angels in the sanctuary, and Gabriel being one, Michael must be the other as this passage means they stand together against the forces. I don’t know of anywhere else in the bible of anybody, Moses, Elijah, Enoch as being referenced as the olive trees. I believe these passages speak that the two witnesses will be two angels. Gabriel and most likely Michael. Michael is the leader of God’s armies Revelation 12:7 and his name means asked as a rhetorical question, Who is like God? Gabriel means, Strong man of God?

But the're angels, and not human? Angels can take on human form and there are many examples of such.

Genesis 18:22 “Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord.”
Genesis 19:1 “Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.”
Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.”

This is the cliff notes, but I don’t see how the scriptures point to these 2 more then say Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Mr. Graham. For a more in depth teaching, I provided the url address below but I can't post links so you have to www it yourselves. Interesting, even if not 100% sure of it.

plaza1.net/Anthony/twowitnesses3.pdf
What you are saying reminds me of this verse...
1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
It does make sense... we are entering into the battle in which Satan is thrown down and knows his time is short.. man can not battle satan.. when a thousand humans can be slaughtered on one side by the wave of Satan's hands.. and ten thousand with his other hand. .. but alas.. I do not see angels heads separated from their bodyies for three days.. as in death...That part does not fit.. can you find anywhere where the angel dies?
 
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yedida

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What you are saying reminds me of this verse...It does make sense... we are entering into the battle in which Satan is thrown down and knows his time is short.. man can not battle satan.. when a thousand humans can be slaughtered on one side by the wave of Satan's hands.. and ten thousand with his other hand. .. but alas.. I do not see angels heads separated from their bodyies for three days.. as in death...That part does not fit.. can you find anywhere where the angel dies?


Yeah. The idea is plausible; and the dying part shouldn't even play into it. If these are angels, come as humans, it's okay - they will still be angels working as God wills, only. So it wouldn't be any big deal that they cannot be killed in the beginning. They are angels, they will live and proclaim God's word as long as He deems they should - they will finally be done in by their enemies when God decides it is time. Then it's 'Show's On' world!
I can live with them being Michael and Gabriel.
 
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Ryan L

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Yeah. The idea is plausible; and the dying part shouldn't even play into it. If these are angels, come as humans, it's okay - they will still be angels working as God wills, only. So it wouldn't be any big deal that they cannot be killed in the beginning. They are angels, they will live and proclaim God's word as long as He deems they should - they will finally be done in by their enemies when God decides it is time. Then it's 'Show's On' world!
I can live with them being Michael and Gabriel.

Someone I talked with questioned whether angels could die, and cited Luke 20:36 to try and prove their point: "for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

But I believe the above passage is talking about the heavenly realm of which death is not possible, but the earthly realm is a different ball game. Who alone is immortal?

1 Timothy 6:15-16 "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light..."

I believe when angels possess a human body, they have that body that would make them mortal. IMHO.
 
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visionary

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Someone I talked with questioned whether angels could die, and cited Luke 20:36 to try and prove their point: "for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

But I believe the above passage is talking about the heavenly realm of which death is not possible, but the earthly realm is a different ball game. Who alone is immortal?

1 Timothy 6:15-16 "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light..."

I believe when angels possess a human body, they have that body that would make them mortal. IMHO.
So what you are saying is that angels can possess human bodies and become mortal... I know in Satanic cults where the idea of procreating with humans gives way to sexual activities we would frown upon.. all in their efforts to gain the human body while keeping their angelic [??] powers. I never thought of good angels doing the same thing in order to have human bodies.. [Lord doesn't like the mixing of seed]
 
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Ryan L

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I also believe their message will knock many long held denominational believes off their rocker, and many will refuse their testimony due to stubborness or it doesn't fit in with their "theology" and "traditions." Their message will be the purest, most unadulterated message since Jesus was on earth that will really unnerve many people. Especially for those who reject Torah observance. This may be a rather large pill for some to follow. Especially for those who accept only Pauline scripture and their interpretation as the Torah being done with.
 
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visionary

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I also believe their message will knock many long held denominational believes off their rocker, and many will refuse their testimony due to stubborness or it doesn't fit in with their "theology" and "traditions." Their message will be the purest, most unadulterated message since Jesus was on earth that will really unnerve many people. Especially for those who reject Torah observance. This may be a rather large pill for some to follow. Especially for those who accept only Pauline scripture and their interpretation as the Torah being done with.
True.. but we must continue to work on the details.:thumbsup:
 
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