Atheists, What's the point?

[Hawisher]

If you're an atheist, that is, of course, your right. Whether you just don't like the Abrahamic God, or you think the idea of a creator is bunk, that's all well and good. I'm convinced that God is real. Moreover, I'm convinced that Jesus was a zombie and that he was God Incarnate. I've given my beliefs a great deal of examination and went through a period where I was an atheist. Most atheists I know have no problem with that.

I do know some atheists, though, and I know a lot of atheists on this forum, who have a problem with blind faith in God. I have to ask, why? Why would you try to 'convert' someone to atheism? I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm genuinely curious. From a theistic standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of believers to spread it. What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

Religion helps many people get through their daily struggles. It helps those who would otherwise give in to existentialism or despair find purpose. It comforts the grieving in a way that pure science tends not to.

What possible purpose is there for convincing someone God isn't real?
Even if you were correct (which I don't believe, but let's pretend), at best you would be like a playground bully who tells another kid that his imaginary friend isn't real. Being correct doesn't make that a good thing to do, and it certainly doesn't make it a nice thing to do. Moreover, convincing someone God isn't real doesn't have any of the benefits of dissuading someone from believing in an imaginary friend. You can't function in society while talking about your imaginary friend; you can while talking about God. Eventually, at some early point in life, a schoolboy will learn that his friend is not real, and you could make the argument that the earlier, the better. That is not true of religion. It is not inevitable, or even particularly likely, that a given man will "grow out of" his religion.

And why should he? As I said before, it gives one solace and comfort. Why try to take that away from him?

EDIT: No, it wasn't a good post. It was a crappy post. I was tired, and existential, and wasn't thinking straight. Un-rep it, please.

 

[madaz]

Im an atheist and I do not advocate atheism, I havent seen any atheists here here at CF advocate atheism either. Correct me if Im wrong. I belong to three (real world) atheist groups and none of them advocate atheism. Im sure some atheists do, but I expect it would be a very small percentage.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you're an atheist, that is, of course, your right. Whether you just don't like the Abrahamic God, or you think the idea of a creator is bunk, that's all well and good. I'm convinced that God is real. Moreover, I'm convinced that Jesus was a zombie and that he was God Incarnate. I've given my beliefs a great deal of examination and went through a period where I was an atheist. Most atheists I know have no problem with that.

I do know some atheists, though, and I know a lot of atheists on this forum, who have a problem with blind faith in God. I have to ask, why? Why would you try to 'convert' someone to atheism? I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm genuinely curious. From a theistic standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of believers to spread it. What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

Religion helps many people get through their daily struggles. It helps those who would otherwise give in to existentialism or despair find purpose. It comforts the grieving in a way that pure science tends not to.

What possible purpose is there for convincing someone God isn't real?
Even if you were correct (which I don't believe, but let's pretend), at best you would be like a playground bully who tells another kid that his imaginary friend isn't real. Being correct doesn't make that a good thing to do, and it certainly doesn't make it a nice thing to do. Moreover, convincing someone God isn't real doesn't have any of the benefits of dissuading someone from believing in an imaginary friend. You can't function in society while talking about your imaginary friend; you can while talking about God. Eventually, at some early point in life, a schoolboy will learn that his friend is not real, and you could make the argument that the earlier, the better. That is not true of religion. It is not inevitable, or even particularly likely, that a given man will "grow out of" his religion.

And why should he? As I said before, it gives one solace and comfort. Why try to take that away from him?

There are a lot of good answers to this question...so I'll start with those I deem best. To start, I think everyone has an innate desire to have others see things the way they do. Imagine a world where everyone disagrees on everything...it would be chaos. No matter what you believe...the world becomes more "manageable" if you will, when others agree.

Secondly, would you rather believe a comforting lie or an ugly truth? As an atheist...I value truth. I see it as an intrinsically good thing and almost always preferable to an untruth. Since I believe I know the truth...I therefore believe others would be better off knowing it as well. Admittedly, this is a hard point for you to grasp because you likely believe the "good" religion does outweighs the "bad" it does...I see it the other way around.

Thirdly, and this point relates to the last, I see all the damage religion does to people (especially on CF) and think of how much better their lives would be if they were atheist. If you like, I could begin linking you to threads on this forum where a person is struggling with a problem that is entirely caused by their mistaken beliefs and I would probably never run out of examples. People who think they're under attack by demons. People who resent a loved one because they love god more than them. People who hate themselves for being homosexual...or sinning in some other way. People who live in fear of the world around them because they see it as ungodly. People who hate others who don't meet some standard of Christianity they arbitrarily create. It's really an endless list and once I think I've seen it all....there is someone else with a problem I've never even considered. I'll never have these problems, I never will.

I know to a believer it must seem that you gain nothing from becoming atheist...to an extent that may be true. What you lose, however, may indeed make your life better than you could imagine. You lose so much fear, worry, shame, anxiety, hate ...so many problems that are nothing more than the creation of your own mind.

I hope this answers your question. I'd like to add that I do not actively try to "convert" anyone to atheism on CF because that would be against forum rules. If it appears I'm doing so in this post, it is solely because I don't see any other way to answer the OP.

 

[Hawisher]

There are a lot of good answers to this question...so I'll start with those I deem best. To start, I think everyone has an innate desire to have others see things the way they do. Imagine a world where everyone disagrees on everything...it would be chaos. No matter what you believe...the world becomes more "manageable" if you will, when others agree.

Secondly, would you rather believe a comforting lie or an ugly truth? As an atheist...I value truth. I see it as an intrinsically good thing and almost always preferable to an untruth. Since I believe I know the truth...I therefore believe others would be better off knowing it as well. Admittedly, this is a hard point for you to grasp because you likely believe the "good" religion does outweighs the "bad" it does...I see it the other way around.

Thirdly, and this point relates to the last, I see all the damage religion does to people (especially on CF) and think of how much better their lives would be if they were atheist. If you like, I could begin linking you to threads on this forum where a person is struggling with a problem that is entirely caused by their mistaken beliefs and I would probably never run out of examples. People who think they're under attack by demons. People who resent a loved one because they love god more than them. People who hate themselves for being homosexual...or sinning in some other way. People who live in fear of the world around them because they see it as ungodly. People who hate others who don't meet some standard of Christianity they arbitrarily create. It's really an endless list and once I think I've seen it all....there is someone else with a problem I've never even considered. I'll never have these problems, I never will.

I know to a believer it must seem that you gain nothing from becoming atheist...to an extent that may be true. What you lose, however, may indeed make your life better than you could imagine. You lose so much fear, worry, shame, anxiety, hate ...so many problems that are nothing more than the creation of your own mind.

I hope this answers your question.

The problems you cite are caused by stupid, not by religion. Come on. Stupid people will always find a way to be stupid. Speaking as a person who has been an atheist, it frankly isn't much fun.

 

[Hawisher]

Im an atheist and I do not advocate atheism, I havent seen any atheists here here at CF advocate atheism either. Correct me if Im wrong. I belong to three (real world) atheist groups and none of them advocate atheism. Im sure some atheists do, but I expect it would be a very small percentage.

... Other than Archeopteryx, Davian, and... a lot of others?

 

[IzzyPop]

If you're an atheist, that is, of course, your right. Whether you just don't like the Abrahamic God, or you think the idea of a creator is bunk, that's all well and good. I'm convinced that God is real. Moreover, I'm convinced that Jesus was a zombie and that he was God Incarnate. I've given my beliefs a great deal of examination and went through a period where I was an atheist. Most atheists I know have no problem with that.

I do know some atheists, though, and I know a lot of atheists on this forum, who have a problem with blind faith in God. I have to ask, why? Why would you try to 'convert' someone to atheism? I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm genuinely curious. From a theistic standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of believers to spread it. What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

Religion helps many people get through their daily struggles. It helps those who would otherwise give in to existentialism or despair find purpose. It comforts the grieving in a way that pure science tends not to.

What possible purpose is there for convincing someone God isn't real?
Even if you were correct (which I don't believe, but let's pretend), at best you would be like a playground bully who tells another kid that his imaginary friend isn't real. Being correct doesn't make that a good thing to do, and it certainly doesn't make it a nice thing to do. Moreover, convincing someone God isn't real doesn't have any of the benefits of dissuading someone from believing in an imaginary friend. You can't function in society while talking about your imaginary friend; you can while talking about God. Eventually, at some early point in life, a schoolboy will learn that his friend is not real, and you could make the argument that the earlier, the better. That is not true of religion. It is not inevitable, or even particularly likely, that a given man will "grow out of" his religion.

And why should he? As I said before, it gives one solace and comfort. Why try to take that away from him?

Simple answer? Ya'll started it. I could care less what people believe, but when my child gets to be taught lies in science class because Christians can't handle reality, I have issues. When my girlfriend has to change birth control prescriptions to one that has harsher side effects because of Christians forcing their morality on us, I want more atheists on my side. When thousands of billboards get erected proselytizing the Christian faith and we atheists have to sue to get a couple dozen, I think more atheists are a good thing.

You don't want your faith challenged? Stop trying to make me live my life according to the tenets of your religion.

 

[madaz]

... Other than Archeopteryx, Davian, and... a lot of others?

Elionai has posted a disproportionately high amount of anti-atheist related threads in a philosophy section. What do you expect?

Perhaps I should have used the word evangelize or preach (for want of a better word) instead of advocate.

 

[Davian]

Im an atheist and I do not advocate atheism, I havent seen any atheists here here at CF advocate atheism either. Correct me if Im wrong. I belong to three (real world) atheist groups and none of them advocate atheism. Im sure some atheists do, but I expect it would be a very small percentage.

... Other than Archeopteryx, Davian, and... a lot of others?

I'm curious. Please link to a few examples to where I have done this advocating.

 

[Davian]

If you're an atheist, that is, of course, your right.

Why, thank you.

Whether you just don't like the Abrahamic God, or you think the idea of a creator is bunk, that's all well and good. I'm convinced that God is real. Moreover, I'm convinced that Jesus was a zombie and that he was God Incarnate.

I will wait to see the movie.

I've given my beliefs a great deal of examination and went through a period where I was an atheist. Most atheists I know have no problem with that.

Neither do I.

I do know some atheists, though, and I know a lot of atheists on this forum, who have a problem with blind faith in God.

Not me.

I have to ask, why? Why would you try to 'convert' someone to atheism? I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm genuinely curious.

That is not my intent, and I do not think that is how I conduct myself.

From a theistic standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of believers to spread it. What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

I could only speak for myself, and that is not what I am looking to do.

Religion helps many people get through their daily struggles. It helps those who would otherwise give in to existentialism or despair find purpose.

This says nothing for the veracity of any religious claims.

It comforts the grieving in a way that pure science tends not to.

Science is a method, a means of exploring, and providing useful predictions. Who says it should have the ability to comfort?

What possible purpose is there for convincing someone God isn't real?

That is not my intent.

Even if you were correct (which I don't believe, but let's pretend), at best you would be like a playground bully who tells another kid that his imaginary friend isn't real.

No. At best, there would be a ripple effect, and religion, and decisions based on religion, would be seen to have no place in government and education.

But I am not banking on that.

Being correct doesn't make that a good thing to do,

How is correcting people on their scientific and philosophical claims, in the context of this forum, a bad thing to do?

and it certainly doesn't make it a nice thing to do.

Do people that visit and post in this forum not do so of their own volition?

Since when is science and philosophy supposed to be "nice"?

Moreover, convincing someone God isn't real doesn't have any of the benefits of dissuading someone from believing in an imaginary friend. You can't function in society while talking about your imaginary friend; you can while talking about God.

Does God talk back to you? Do you hear voices? You can tell us.

Eventually, at some early point in life, a schoolboy will learn that his friend is not real, and you could make the argument that the earlier, the better. That is not true of religion. It is not inevitable, or even particularly likely, that a given man will "grow out of" his religion.

People "grow out" of their religion all of the time.

What of the Clergy Project?

The Clergy Project - Home Page

Hundreds of religious leaders that "grew out" of their religious beliefs, and now, fortunately, find support in finding other avenues of employment.

And why should he? As I said before, it gives one solace and comfort. Why try to take that away from him?

Religion as a comfort blanket. If that it what you need it for, fine by me.

But, if you are going to prop up your religion using bad science as a crutch, and post that crutch here for all to see, what do you expect?

There are are other forums on this site, that you yourself have made use of, that are sheltered from (most) criticism.

Are you not happy posting there?

 

[quatona]

If you're an atheist, that is, of course, your right. Whether you just don't like the Abrahamic God, or you think the idea of a creator is bunk, that's all well and good. I'm convinced that God is real. Moreover, I'm convinced that Jesus was a zombie and that he was God Incarnate. I've given my beliefs a great deal of examination and went through a period where I was an atheist. Most atheists I know have no problem with that.

I do know some atheists, though, and I know a lot of atheists on this forum, who have a problem with blind faith in God. I have to ask, why? Why would you try to 'convert' someone to atheism? I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm genuinely curious. From a theistic standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of believers to spread it. What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

Religion helps many people get through their daily struggles. It helps those who would otherwise give in to existentialism or despair find purpose. It comforts the grieving in a way that pure science tends not to.

What possible purpose is there for convincing someone God isn't real?
Even if you were correct (which I don't believe, but let's pretend), at best you would be like a playground bully who tells another kid that his imaginary friend isn't real. Being correct doesn't make that a good thing to do, and it certainly doesn't make it a nice thing to do. Moreover, convincing someone God isn't real doesn't have any of the benefits of dissuading someone from believing in an imaginary friend. You can't function in society while talking about your imaginary friend; you can while talking about God. Eventually, at some early point in life, a schoolboy will learn that his friend is not real, and you could make the argument that the earlier, the better. That is not true of religion. It is not inevitable, or even particularly likely, that a given man will "grow out of" his religion.

And why should he? As I said before, it gives one solace and comfort. Why try to take that away from him?

Remind me: Where and when have I made an attempt to deconvert anyone?
Actually, I am glad that religion is there for people who need such.

However: If you are talking about the discussions here - I would expect a philosophy forum to be the place to discuss philosophical questions, and I would expect anyone who spends their time here to be interested in such discussions. This is not the place for being concerned with sheltering people´s imaginary friends (your hypothetical). It seems to me there are plenty of "feelgood" places for Christians here on CF; places where their beliefs and their arguments for God are unchallenged and accepted as a premise. So the actual question is not why I am here but why a person is here to whom philosophical discussion is a threat to his belief in his precious "imaginary friend".

Even in discussions with Elioenai and his ilk I have never argued for atheism. All I have done is investigate and address their poor arguments for a God existing. The question is always "Is this a good argument?", not: "Do I agree with what it is an argument for?".

On another note, you mustn´t forget that atheism is not a worldview. My lack of belief in gods is pretty insignificant for myself. What is significant to me are my convictions - not the stuff that I lack belief in.

And on a final note: A lot of effort of atheists to argue against religion is caused not by the private beliefs people may have, but by the attempt to establish their beliefs as facts in our societies. In short: People are welcome to have imaginary friends (I personally would prefer to say "unevidenced friends") to their hearts´ desire, but these friends don´t e.g. belong in science classes, and these friends´ allegedly "objective morals" don´t get to decide our legislation.

 

[Tiberius]

I do know some atheists, though, and I know a lot of atheists on this forum, who have a problem with blind faith in God. I have to ask, why?

Wait...

Are you actually asking why I have a problem with being asked and even expected to believe in something for which there is absolutely NO testable evidence? No way at all that I can verify it for myself?

Why would you try to 'convert' someone to atheism? I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm genuinely curious. From a theistic standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of believers to spread it. What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

I personally don't encourage anyone to be an atheist.

I encourage EVERYONE to critically examine everything they believe to be true about the world and reach a conclusion based solely on the evidence, not from personal bias.

Religion helps many people get through their daily struggles. It helps those who would otherwise give in to existentialism or despair find purpose. It comforts the grieving in a way that pure science tends not to.

And that's wonderful. But you don't need to claim that evolution is wrong or that the Bible is literally true for that.

What possible purpose is there for convincing someone God isn't real?
Even if you were correct (which I don't believe, but let's pretend), at best you would be like a playground bully who tells another kid that his imaginary friend isn't real. Being correct doesn't make that a good thing to do, and it certainly doesn't make it a nice thing to do. Moreover, convincing someone God isn't real doesn't have any of the benefits of dissuading someone from believing in an imaginary friend. You can't function in society while talking about your imaginary friend; you can while talking about God. Eventually, at some early point in life, a schoolboy will learn that his friend is not real, and you could make the argument that the earlier, the better. That is not true of religion. It is not inevitable, or even particularly likely, that a given man will "grow out of" his religion.

And why should he? As I said before, it gives one solace and comfort. Why try to take that away from him?

Do you think it is wrong for a child to eventually stop believing in Santa Claus?

 

[quatona]

So what do you think is the point for a Christian website to create a philosophy forum and an ethics&morality forum for Christians and non-Christians - when critical thinking isn´t welcome and to be held back as soon as a Christian´s non-intellectual comfort zone is affected?

 

[quatona]

Speaking as a person who has been an atheist, it frankly isn't much fun.

Cognitive dissonance may be fun - it may not be healthy, on the long run, though. So please don´t appeal to me to ignore my intellectual facilities just because doing without them is more fun.
Besides, if being an atheist wasn´t fun to you, you did it wrong.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If you're an atheist, that is, of course, your right. Whether you just don't like the Abrahamic God, or you think the idea of a

Thank you. Being a Christian is your right as well.

I do know some atheists, though, and I know a lot of atheists on this forum, who have a problem with blind faith in God. I have to ask, why?

You don't see a problem with blind faith?

Why would you try to 'convert' someone to atheism?

I wouldn't know how. I might engage in debate at times, but I'm not trying to convert anyone.

What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

Some atheists are antitheists (anti-religion) who believe that religion on balance leans towards creating harm in the world. What they get out of spreading atheism is less of that harm.

Religion helps many people get through their daily struggles. It helps those who would otherwise give in to existentialism or despair find purpose. It comforts the grieving in a way that pure science tends not to.

Yes.

Even if you were correct (which I don't believe, but let's pretend), at best you would be like a playground bully who tells another kid that his imaginary friend isn't real. Being correct doesn't make that a good thing to do, and it certainly doesn't make it a nice thing to do.

It is tough love if one teaches rationality, which is arguably a benevolent act. It's not about "being correct", but about opening eyes.

How do you feel about Christians spreading Christianity by converting others? Are they bullies?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ana the Ist]

The problems you cite are caused by stupid, not by religion. Come on. Stupid people will always find a way to be stupid. Speaking as a person who has been an atheist, it frankly isn't much fun.

Whether or not you consider your fellow Christians stupid doesn't change the fact that their problems are often entirely the result of their faith.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

... Other than Archeopteryx, Davian, and... a lot of others?

My ears are burning.

What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

I don't think that spreading atheism is the goal per se. I certainly didn't join this forum with that goal in mind (in fact, I was a Christian at the time I joined).

Religion helps many people get through their daily struggles. It helps those who would otherwise give in to existentialism or despair find purpose. It comforts the grieving in a way that pure science tends not to.

Many theists believe that a world without deities is nihilistic and so they make assumptions about what atheists must believe with regard to purpose, meaning, beauty, morality, and so on. They then insist that we can't appreciate beauty or act morally or have any purpose in life. What you perceive as "spreading atheism" may instead be a sincere attempt to dislodge these widespread misconceptions about atheists.

What possible purpose is there for convincing someone God isn't real?
Even if you were correct (which I don't believe, but let's pretend), at best you would be like a playground bully who tells another kid that his imaginary friend isn't real. Being correct doesn't make that a good thing to do, and it certainly doesn't make it a nice thing to do. Moreover, convincing someone God isn't real doesn't have any of the benefits of dissuading someone from believing in an imaginary friend. You can't function in society while talking about your imaginary friend; you can while talking about God. Eventually, at some early point in life, a schoolboy will learn that his friend is not real, and you could make the argument that the earlier, the better. That is not true of religion. It is not inevitable, or even particularly likely, that a given man will "grow out of" his religion.

And why should he? As I said before, it gives one solace and comfort. Why try to take that away from him?

If a man receives solace and comfort from believing that he is Napoleon would we say "Let him continue to believe that it is true because he finds comfort in it"? If a student in a geology class writes a paper on the age of the Earth, insisting that it is 6000 years old, should the teacher give him an A simply because he finds comfort in the notion of a young Earth? When a scientist performs an experiment that convincingly demolishes a prevailing theory, should she abstain from publishing her findings because they may cause discomfort among some of her colleagues? To quote Dawkins, "the consolation-content of a belief does not raise its truth-value."

And what of other religious believers? Should this not apply to those who seek to convert others to their religion? "Stop evangelising! Can't you see that he is already quite comfortable!"

 

[tonybeer]

I think the problem comes when people start trying to tell others how they should act based on their beliefs. Even worse is trying to legislate based on a faith position.

We've seen it with anti abortion and anti gay sentiment. It is even more extreme, in some Muslim countries where you can be imprisoned or even killed for having the wrong beliefs or even just the lack of a belief in God.

I know lots of believers do just keep their view to themselves and don't try and control other peoples lifes, but some do.

All religions ultimately have a set of rules and rewards you if you follow them. These rules aren't always moral and can have dire implications for other people.

 

[Ken-1122]

The problems you cite are caused by stupid, not by religion. Come on. Stupid people will always find a way to be stupid.

Didn't your Jesus say that a tree is known for the fruit it bears? My point is, there is something about Christianity that causes a lot of people to think this way. Calling them stupid simply ignores a big problem

Speaking as a person who has been an atheist, it frankly isn't much fun.

Speaking as a person who has been a Christian, it frankly isn't much fun.

Ken

 

[motherprayer]

Interesting... This conversation was... ah, peacable. I mean, credit where credit is due, my Christian brethren could take lessons from my atheist brethren here.

Jus saying...

 

[Ken-1122]

From a theistic standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of believers to spread it. What does an atheist get out of spreading atheism?

From an atheist standpoint, conversion makes sense, because there is a benefit to those who know and believe the truth, and therefore a moral imperative on the part of non believers to spread it. That is what an atheist get out of spreading atheism.

K