Divine Invitation

[Steve Petersen]

'The Jim Crow laws were state and local laws in the United States enacted between 1876 and 1965. They mandated de jure racial segregation in all public facilities in Southern states of the former Confederacy, with, starting in 1890, a "separate but equal" status for African-Americans.'

Kinzer's insistence that Gentiles leave MJ congregations, and go back to church, and that Jewish and Gentiles converts should be 'separate but equal' is a virtual analog of Jim Crow laws.

 

[Avodat]

Sad to see, but it seems that FFOZ is falling into the sway of Mark Kinzer. Much of what Kinzer has said in his book Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism I might agree with; but his notion of a 'bilateral ecclesia' that is 'equal but separate' really tees me off. He wants Gentiles out of Messianic congregations and back in church. I am not sure to what degree Boaz Michael has adopted this philosophy, but his new book Tent of David seems to be at least encouraging this for SOME Gentile Messianics. I hope it does not continue to evolve into the 'equal but separate' stance of Kinzer.

Jim Crow is apparently alive and well at the UMJC; pray he is shown the door at FFOZ.

I agree. Mishkan - the academic Journal (not David on here), did a peer review on Kinzer's book. It contains some interesting critiques of his work.

I wonder when (if) he will bring out part two, that he promised to write?

I was not very convinced about his passive evangelism theory, either, but then I was not very convinced by UK Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks' book that we should all live in The Home We Built Together.

 

[macher]

Kinzer's insistence that Gentiles leave MJ congregations, and go back to church, and that Jewish and Gentiles converts should be 'separate but equal' is a virtual analog of Jim Crow laws.

Mainstream Messianic Judaism has relationships with the Church. However I don't see that Messianic Judaism keeps Gentiles out and/or discourages Gentiles from being a member of a Messianic Jewish congregation.

It seems from this discussion the ones that claim to be Messianic don't think or find it hard to believe in the reality of the existence of the Church in regards to relationship/fellowshiping.

It's like that Messianic'ism is the real deal.

 

[ContraMundum]

Sad to see, but it seems that FFOZ is falling into the sway of Mark Kinzer. Much of what Kinzer has said in his book Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism I might agree with;

OK...I've got to read that book. Getting cited a lot.

but his notion of a 'bilateral ecclesia' that is 'equal but separate' really tees me off. He wants Gentiles out of Messianic congregations and back in church. I am not sure to what degree Boaz Michael has adopted this philosophy, but his new book Tent of David seems to be at least encouraging this for SOME Gentile Messianics. I hope it does not continue to evolve into the 'equal but separate' stance of Kinzer.

Jim Crow is apparently alive and well at the UMJC; pray he is shown the door at FFOZ.

I think Boaz Micheal has met with the same kind of despair that many Jews have when it comes to the Messianic movement. His book on Messsianic Judaism struck a few chords with me.

 

[Steve Petersen]

OK...I've got to read that book. Getting cited a lot.



I think Boaz Micheal has met with the same kind of despair that many Jews have when it comes to the Messianic movement. His book on Messsianic Judaism struck a few chords with me.

You can save yourself some time and read the summary of the book I wrote here:

Posts 1, and 5 and above:

http://www.christianforums.com/t6166901/

 

[ContraMundum]

First I would like to publicly state that I have wronged ContraMundum.​

I made some assumptions about this man that were incorrect and my statements about him, based on those assumptions were likewise incorrect. For this and for the personal pain I now know that my remarks must have had on him, I now make a public apology for all of my brothers and sisters to witness. I was wrong.

He is my brother in Messiah no matter our differences in doctrine and viewpoint. I am truly sorry for any pain I caused. That said, our differences remain. I hope to conduct our discussion of these differences in a much more civil manner.

ContraMundum, I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me. I know I have wronged you and I am truly sorry.

Of course. Forgiven, forgiven, forgiven.

Brother, please take this criticism in the spirit it is offered, but no one can keep all 613 laws without violating them, as I am sure a Torah teacher of your stature is fully aware. I keep hearing this same phrase used in relation to this argument from people that know better and I can only marvel as to why they say it. I know that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female..." but I don't see that I am obligated to the laws of nidda.

We are in accord on this.

You say, "The more I read your stuff and compare it to proper MJ position statements... etc.". This is not as if it is my stuff. This is the majority view held here in this place.

I don't think so. As far as I can tell, the OL'ers are between 2-4 of the regular posters here. Most of the other posters hold various other positions or are still in the process of working through the issue.

It is reflected in the SoP, one based on the majority opinion - polled, voted, agreed upon by this forum membership and ratified by Christian Forums administration. This is not the FFOZ, the MJAA, the UMJC, or any other Alphabet organization claiming rights they do not possess. This is a forum that reflects the majority view of its membership on Torah observance. You should probably get over that.

I'm still not convinced everyone here agrees on what constitutes Torah observance for those following the Messiah, regardless of background. I think every person here considers themselves Torah observant, but each of us would practice that differently and understand it differently. This diversity has always been present in history too. Judaism has it. Perhaps this is something some here have a hard time dealing with, due to their Christian background.

You say. "Also, your take on what constitutes being "Torah positive" as per SoP... etc." Why make this about me? This sounds like your problem is with the Messianic site adviser and not me. All of our statement about Torah observance are supposed to be positive. Look around. In this thread alone there have been numerous statements about Torah observance that do not endorse it.

I don't think people are saying that they are against observance per se. I have not seen it. I have seen what I interpret to be a call for proper understanding and application of the Torah. At least that's what I'm getting out of it.

If my view were just an empty echo of those organizations, I would spend time in their forums where I could get my ego stroked ad nausium. Besides, judging by your tone, my views would get about as much traction over there as they do in General Theology. I'm OK with that. That is why I like it here, where the concept of Torah observance is protected by the SoP. I have said this too many times, but it still bears repeating. There are many places on the web where anyone can go to discuss how and who are NOT obligated to keep the Law. This isn't one of them.

I think this is a good forum for discussing things. Probably the right one. What is protected here is essentially the right to observe Torah and also the ban on preaching that the Torah is "done away with" etc.

You seem to be making assumptions about me. You might want to learn from my mistake. I made assumptions about you and had to eat my words. Btw, I am still very sorry about that. Seriously. I was wrong. I'm sorry.

Your brother in Him,
Phillip

No probs. In due course, we may have an accord.

 

[yedida]

OK...I've got to read that book. Getting cited a lot.



I think Boaz Micheal has met with the same kind of despair that many Jews have when it comes to the Messianic movement. His book on Messsianic Judaism struck a few chords with me.

Let me begin by stating that i understand that a convert is a full-fledged Jew, I get that. I applaud it. But, I must say, that I wonder big time about converts that were christain, converted and now are christians again.
Having said that, I've heard that Michael is what I've just described. 'nuf said.

 

[ContraMundum]

You can save yourself some time and read the summary of the book I wrote here:

Posts 1, and 5 and above:

http://www.christianforums.com/t6166901/

Thanks Bro, I am curious enough to actually read it now.

 

[Avodat]

Thanks Bro, I am curious enough to actually read it now.

Go for it - it is well worth reading whether or not you end up agreeing with all he has said. Kinzer gets it spot on at times and at other times, in my view, he misses the mark BUT... most peer reviews I have seen make the point that Kinzer raises significant challenges for Jews, Christians and MJ's. It is for these reasons that I would commend his book - you cannot read it and walk away un-challenged.

I came to similar overall conclusions as Kinzer when I did a paper on this subject - and also ended up with deep challenges for Judaism, Christianity and MJ's. The problem now is whether those challenges will be picked up by the three 'groups' - if I remember correctly, Kinzer had indicated he was going to write another book on how we can meet these challenges.

 

[macher]

Go for it - it is well worth reading whether or not you end up agreeing with all he has said. Kinzer gets it spot on at times and at other times, in my view, he misses the mark BUT... most peer reviews I have seen make the point that Kinzer raises significant challenges for Jews, Christians and MJ's. It is for these reasons that I would commend his book - you cannot read it and walk away un-challenged.

I came to similar overall conclusions as Kinzer when I did a paper on this subject - and also ended up with deep challenges for Judaism, Christianity and MJ's. The problem now is whether those challenges will be picked up by the three 'groups' - if I remember correctly, Kinzer had indicated he was going to write another book on how we can meet these challenges.

I read Steve's review. I agree with Kinzer. However I'm not so he's advocating that Gentiles go back to church though. From what I read he's writing on the reality that there is the Church present and how all this can be applied with the
Church being present. Unless I missed that he's advocating Gentiles to go back to the Church.

Also I believe Kinzer notes about solidarity with the Church and Messianic Judaism, that there is solidarity.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I read Steve's review. I agree with Kinzer. However I'm not so he's advocating that Gentiles go back to church though. From what I read he's writing on the reality that there is the Church present and how all this can be applied with the
Church being present. Unless I missed that he's advocating Gentiles to go back to the Church.

Also I believe Kinzer notes about solidarity with the Church and Messianic Judaism, that there is solidarity.

It is in one of the last chapters; I can't remember which. That review is a few years old. You will need to read the book to find it.

 

[Yahudim]

This Weeks Episode: 'Divine Invitation'

'Thank you and welcome', the Usher lied. 'Are you with the Groom's family or that of the Bride?' demanded the thin man while peering down his bespectacled nose through 50 shades of disdain.

'Family of the Groom!', the guest smiled. 'Brother in fact!' he continued, with a tinge of pride in his voice. He tugged at his lapels to square his tuxedo jacket to his shoulders while standing a little straighter (if that were even possible). His smile beamed. But alas, it was not contagious.

'Oh, I see...' The usher's eyes squinted and his nose wrinkled as his disdain meter climbed. 'Gentile? Adopted? New to the family?', he drawled loudly, with a slightly nasal intonation. You could have heard a pin drop. The usher smiled. The diminutive wedding planner and his entire entourage behind him turned to stare. The crowd began to notice.

'May I see your genealogy please?', asked the Usher, a little louder than before. His expression was flint. The guest visibly winced, looking more than a little uncomfortable. Quickly and clumsily, he fumbled for his invitation and silently surrendered it. All smiles were gone.

'Thank you.' said the Usher in an even louder voice, adding a nasty flourish. It was clear, he wanted to make certain everyone was at least listening, if not hosting an openly hostile and wide-eyed stare.

'I see you are no blood relation to the bride.' he declared to the waiting assembly. 'Please sit here and hold your peace. Someone will be with you shortly' and the welcome ended, such as it was.

The wedding planner, a small and carelessly cruel man, then commence his approach with a roll of his eyes, as if on cue. 'You cannot wear THAT', came the imperious declaration punctuated with the wave of a limp hand. Go with Leon and change.' With a snap of his finger and a defiant turn of his head, the little man swaggered off.

'LEON', he bellowed, secretly delighted at the increasing attention. 'Please take this poor misguided soul to the dressing area and show him what to wear.' he casually tossed over his shoulder: 'He's in the wedding party!'

The door slammed open with resounding force as the guest returned. Everyone turned and tried half-heartedly to suppress their reaction. Most giggled behind their hands and whispered. Others laughed openly. Some just stared impartially like the man's discomfort was of no concern of theirs.

The guest was obviously livid. His face red, eyes narrow and nostrils flared; he clenched his fists in anger. The trust he gave with the surrendering his suit for the change demanded, had obviously been betrayed. 'Where is my tux', he demanded? 'I don't think this...' gesturing to the yellow sequined bride's maid gown, matching clutch and blonde Shirley Temple wig, 'is very funny!' He was pitifully alone in that assessment though.

The Usher positioned himself between the obviously agitated guest and the wedding planner; his face averted and hands raised with palms out, in the universal gesture of non-aggression. But his thoughts belied his body language when he simply stated, 'You will be notified of your opinion when it is appropriate for you to have one.' Both he and the little wedding planner departed arm in arm, the entourage in obedient attendance, leaving the stunned guest to deal with the ridicule that followed.

'This is not what I was told!' he screamed.

'Gentiles, what are you going to do?', came the not so quiet whisper as the scene faded. You could hear the crowd murmur in agreement...

ANNOUNCER'S VOICE:Thank you for watching today's episode of 'Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate' and for all of your continued support. Please stay tuned for scenes from next week.

This program was brought to you by 'Scriptural Divide', The Wash and Sanctioned Proportional Inverse Nomianism (SPIN) for Gentiles foundation, 'providers of high-end rhetorical blather for nearly 2000 years' and our friends at 'Separate But Equal' The Quorum United Against Control & Knowledge (QUACK) Coalition, A holy owned subsidiary of the Department of Redundancy Department and the Unnatural Guard, 'putting His good Word and your good offerings to our good use'.

Now back to our regularly scheduled deprogramming...

 

[aniello]

'Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate'

Si, e la verita.

 

[Yahudim]

'Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate'

Si, e la verita.

Grazie Caro Fratello

 

[mishkan]

Too wild! Very creative, chaver.

This Weeks Episode: 'Divine Invitation'

'Thank you and welcome', the Usher lied. 'Are you with the Groom's family or that of the Bride?' demanded the thin man while peering down his bespectacled nose through 50 shades of disdain.

'Family of the Groom!', the guest smiled. 'Brother in fact!' he continued, with a tinge of pride in his voice. He tugged at his lapels to square his tuxedo jacket to his shoulders while standing a little straighter (if that were even possible). His smile beamed. But alas, it was not contagious.

'Oh, I see...' The usher's eyes squinted and his nose wrinkled as his disdain meter climbed. 'Gentile? Adopted? New to the family?', he drawled loudly, with a slightly nasal intonation. You could have heard a pin drop. The usher smiled. The diminutive wedding planner and his entire entourage behind him turned to stare. The crowd began to notice.

'May I see your genealogy please?', asked the Usher, a little louder than before. His expression was flint. The guest visibly winced, looking more than a little uncomfortable. Quickly and clumsily, he fumbled for his invitation and silently surrendered it. All smiles were gone.

'Thank you.' said the Usher in an even louder voice, adding a nasty flourish. It was clear, he wanted to make certain everyone was at least listening, if not hosting an openly hostile and wide-eyed stare.

'I see you are no blood relation to the bride.' he declared to the waiting assembly. 'Please sit here and hold your peace. Someone will be with you shortly' and the welcome ended, such as it was.

The wedding planner, a small and carelessly cruel man, then commence his approach with a roll of his eyes, as if on cue. 'You cannot wear THAT', came the imperious declaration punctuated with the wave of a limp hand. Go with Leon and change.' With a snap of his finger and a defiant turn of his head, the little man swaggered off.

'LEON', he bellowed, secretly delighted at the increasing attention. 'Please take this poor misguided soul to the dressing area and show him what to wear.' he casually tossed over his shoulder: 'He's in the wedding party!'

The door slammed open with resounding force as the guest returned. Everyone turned and tried half-heartedly to suppress their reaction. Most giggled behind their hands and whispered. Others laughed openly. Some just stared impartially like the man's discomfort was of no concern of theirs.

The guest was obviously livid. His face red, eyes narrow and nostrils flared; he clenched his fists in anger. The trust he gave with the surrendering his suit for the change demanded, had obviously been betrayed. 'Where is my tux', he demanded? 'I don't think this...' gesturing to the yellow sequined bride's maid gown, matching clutch and blonde Shirley Temple wig, 'is very funny!' He was pitifully alone in that assessment though.

The Usher positioned himself between the obviously agitated guest and the wedding planner; his face averted and hands raised with palms out, in the universal gesture of non-aggression. But his thoughts belied his body language when he simply stated, 'You will be notified of your opinion when it is appropriate for you to have one.' Both he and the little wedding planner departed arm in arm, the entourage in obedient attendance, leaving the stunned guest to deal with the ridicule that followed.

'This is not what I was told!' he screamed.

'Gentiles, what are you going to do?', came the not so quiet whisper as the scene faded. You could hear the crowd murmur in agreement...

ANNOUNCER'S VOICE:Thank you for watching today's episode of 'Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate' and for all of your continued support. Please stay tuned for scenes from next week.

This program was brought to you by 'Scriptural Divide', The Wash and Sanctioned Proportional Inverse Nomianism (SPIN) for Gentiles foundation, 'providers of high-end rhetorical blather for nearly 2000 years' and our friends at 'Separate But Equal' The Quorum United Against Control & Knowledge (QUACK) Coalition, A holy owned subsidiary of the Department of Redundancy Department and the Unnatural Guard, 'putting His good Word and your good offerings to our good use'.

Now back to our regularly scheduled deprogramming...

 

[Yahudim]

Too wild! Very creative, chaver.

I rather enjoyed it. Laughter doeth good like medicine!

 

[ContraMundum]

Go for it - it is well worth reading whether or not you end up agreeing with all he has said. Kinzer gets it spot on at times and at other times, in my view, he misses the mark BUT... most peer reviews I have seen make the point that Kinzer raises significant challenges for Jews, Christians and MJ's. It is for these reasons that I would commend his book - you cannot read it and walk away un-challenged.

I came to similar overall conclusions as Kinzer when I did a paper on this subject - and also ended up with deep challenges for Judaism, Christianity and MJ's. The problem now is whether those challenges will be picked up by the three 'groups' - if I remember correctly, Kinzer had indicated he was going to write another book on how we can meet these challenges.

I've been a bit slack here. I went to download it and instead downloaded a whole bunch of other books on the topic- mostly by Lustiger, who's position on this topic I find very compelling, and one that seems to have almost been entirely overlooked in this debate, but one which comes from an amazingly mature mind and with carefully explored conclusions.

More later.

 

[macher]

I've been a bit slack here. I went to download it and instead downloaded a whole bunch of other books on the topic- mostly by Lustiger, who's position on this topic I find very compelling, and one that seems to have almost been entirely overlooked in this debate, but one which comes from an amazingly mature mind and with carefully explored conclusions.

More later.

You have a link to Lustiger.

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On

​

This thread is closed.
Please remember that only MJ members may debate here.


Mod Hat Off​

 

[Tishri1]

Reopening this after a move to everything Torah sub forum

Mjs teaching only , everyone else.... Just questions please