Did Christ really pay the sin debt?

[OrthodoxyUSA]

grape fruits weren't created by God...

Really? Where does that come from?

Just being nosey... but can I ask your age?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Koakku]

Yes, he paid all of it.

 

[Lilly Owl]

The Old Testament bears no mention of hell fire as punishment for our sins. Rather, it refers to Sheol. As is referenced throughout the Bible.
Hades and Hell were added later. Some say by the authority of the Catholic church.
Regardless, it is a curiosity that NT scriptures say Jesus took the sin of the world upon himself on the cross. That John 3:16 promises God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
That Timothy, under Paul's authorship, says Jesus saved the world from sin especially those that believe, and yet Sin is still a factor in the world.
That people are either born sinners, due to inherited sin from Adam. Or depending on the philosophy one believes and all due to scripture too, someone is born perfect but then stands to sin later on when they're accountable.

That sin still exists as a factor in the world does pose an interesting paradox. If Jesus came to save the world from that, why's it still here?
And is our salvation just a matter of believing he had the best of intentions, when in truth he failed?
Because he certainly didn't succeed if sin still exists.

 

[BrokenGhost]

That sin still exists as a factor in the world does pose an interesting paradox. If Jesus came to save the world from that, why's it still here?
And is our salvation just a matter of believing he had the best of intentions, when in truth he failed?
Because he certainly didn't succeed if sin still exists.

Because only those washed in His blood are no longer enslaved by sin. It's not that He failed, but that all will not receive salvation.

 

[Stryder06]

Christ created all things. You're using the Jewish interpretation.



God be gracious to me a sinner.

I know that Christ created all things. I'm saying that the Father is also involved. The Spirit too for that matter.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Because only those washed in His blood are no longer enslaved by sin. It's not that He failed, but that all will not receive salvation.

Interesting... did you know that the phrase "washed in the blood" comes from when we put the bread into the wine?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Tiredknight]

Really? Where does that come from?

Just being nosey... but can I ask your age?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Are you serious? You think God created Grape Fruits?

EVEN though it was created in the 18th century in barbados? It is a type of the jamacian sweet orange which was a hybrid from asia? And then it was Pink. The red Color did not come around until 1929 with the company Ruby red.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I know that Christ created all things. I'm saying that the Father is also involved. The Spirit too for that matter.

OK... was it The Father that made Adam and Eve leave, or was it Christ?

They were told what the concequences would be for eating of the tree. Just like one would warn me that if I fall down drunk I will scrape my knees.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Tiredknight]

OK... was it The Father that made Adam and Eve leave, or was it Christ?

They were told what the concequences would be for eating of the tree. Just like one would warn me that if I fall down drunk I will scrape my knees.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

The bible does not say who drove them out, other then it says there driven out and angel was placed at the entrance with a fiery sword.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The bible does not say who drove them out, other then it says there driven out and angel was placed at the entrance with a fiery sword.

Would you agree that it was a physical person that walked in the garden?

How many of the triune Godhead are physical?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Lilly Owl]

Because only those washed in His blood are no longer enslaved by sin. It's not that He failed, but that all will not receive salvation.

Romans 8:29 (NRSV)


29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family.

Lamentations 3:37-38


37 Who can command and have it done,
if the Lord has not ordained it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

 

[Hentenza]

The Old Testament bears no mention of hell fire as punishment for our sins. Rather, it refers to Sheol. As is referenced throughout the Bible.

The concept of sheol in many passages of the OT means much more than just a grave. For example,

Psalms 16:10-11
10 For You will not abandon my soul to [i]Sheol;
Nor will You [j]allow Your [k]Holy One to [l]undergo decay.
11 You will make known to me the path of life;
In Your presence is fullness of joy;
In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.

Specifically, this includes the spiritual world, to which the grave is merely the entrance.

Psalms 9:17

17 The wicked will [m]return to [n]Sheol,
Even all the nations who forget God.

Since death is the soul's point of departure from the body, there is more involved in hell than the body's burial in a grave.

Deuteronomy 32:22
22 For a fire is kindled in My anger,
And burns to the lowest part of [f]Sheol,
And consumes the earth with its yield,
And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Graves contain one level but here there is a lower level which describes a worst state than just dead.

Daniel 12:2
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting [a]contempt.

Looks familiar? (Matt. 25:46)

Isaiah 66:22-24
22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All [a]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have [b]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all [c]mankind.”


That's a vivid description of hell matching John's description is Revelation.



How about some intertestamental Jewish belief about hell?


4 Maccabees


10:11 but you, because of your impiety and bloodthirstiness, will undergo unceasing torments."



12:12 Because of this, justice has laid up for you intense and eternal fire and tortures, and these throughout all time will never let you go.



13:15 for great is the struggle of the soul and the danger of eternal torment lying before those who transgress the commandment of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Lilly Owl The Old Testament bears no mention of hell fire as punishment for our sins. Rather, it refers to Sheol. As is referenced throughout the Bible.

The concept of sheol in many passages of the OT means much more than just a grave. For example,

Psalms 16:10-11
10 For You will not abandon my soul to [i]Sheol;
Nor will You [j]allow Your [k]Holy One to [l]undergo decay.
11 You will make known to me the path of life;
In Your presence is fullness of joy;
In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.
.

Sheol/Hades sounds like a spooky place!

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

In contrast to Lazarus, the rich man was buried in Hades. An understanding of the original meaning of the Greek word hades is necessary to grasp the message of the parable. Regarding the possible etymology of this word, the The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states that hades ". . . comes from idein (to see) with the negative prefix, a-, and so would mean the invisible . . . In the LXX hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb. she'ol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is the land of darkness . . ." (p. 206, vol. 2).

Most likely, hades originally meant "unseen." Later, it came to refer to the hidden state of those buried in the earth. Symbolically, this parable shows that a point would come when the House of Judah would become "unseen" by God, out of favor because of their unbelief. There would come a time when the Jews as a whole would no longer be God's favored nation. God would harden their hearts, leading them to reject their Messiah (John 1:11).

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.

 

[Stryder06]

OK... was it The Father that made Adam and Eve leave, or was it Christ?

They were told what the concequences would be for eating of the tree. Just like one would warn me that if I fall down drunk I will scrape my knees.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

I believe it was Christ that told them they had to leave. What I'm saying however is that the Father, Son, and Spirit were in agreement that they had to go. The decision was made in Heaven, and Christ delivered it to them on earth.

 

[Tiredknight]

Would you agree that it was a physical person that walked in the garden?

How many of the triune Godhead are physical?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

That is an interesting question. I say none of them and only 1 of them...all at the same time.

I believe that Jesus did not have a physical body till he was born of Mary.

IF I was to make a choice I would say that God the Father walked them out Physically. Because the bible does say that God the father would walk and talk with adam in the cool of the day. Does that mean that the per-incarnate Christ was never there, no but the bible just doesn't say.

 

[Tiredknight]

I believe it was Christ that told them they had to leave. What I'm saying however is that the Father, Son, and Spirit were in agreement that they had to go. The decision was made in Heaven, and Christ delivered it to them on earth.

The bible does not support this.

 

[Stryder06]

The bible does not support this.

I wouldn't say it if it didn't.

 

[Hentenza]

Sheol/Hades sounds like a spooky place!

That it is.

 

[Cribstyl]

So according to most, the penalty for sin is not actually death, but is eternal torment in hell fire. If this then is the case, how is it that Christ paid our sin debt?

Who do you know that does not agree with the scriptures that 'the wages of sin is death?' The question is whether they mean death of the body or death of the soul. A fact to consider is that; if everyone will rise from the grave to be judged, how can you say that Jesus did not die to save our souls from Hell?
The bible proves that the devil is a spirt and God created Hell for him and his angel.


Your thread objective reflects the SDA state of the dead doctrine. It reject what Jesus taught about seperation of body and soul and the reality of hell. Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Good luck with your false teaching about Hell.

Your question method rejects the scriptures presented and causes your reasoning to seem as a measure of knowledge.

 

[Tiredknight]

I wouldn't say it if it didn't.

Ok well then show your claim with scripture back up...