Did Christ really pay the sin debt?

[thesunisout]

And you should read verse 1-22...

I've read them..show me where the contradiction is. As I just pointed out, the verse makes no sense with death meaning a physical death, since those in Christ still die physical deaths. Could you respond to that?

 

[Tiredknight]

I've read them..show me where the contradiction is. As I just pointed out, the verse makes no sense with death meaning a physical death, since those in Christ still die physical deaths. Could you respond to that?

"
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Speaks of Physical death and a Physical change and new nature apart from sin.

"
For he that is dead is freed from sin.8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." all referring to Physical death.


"
5What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death." Physical obedience in the christian Mortality.

other Scriptures correlate. Like Paul talking about Jesus being the new Adam, and through one man death entered the world (Physical) and Jesus death(Physical) taking all the wrath of God, Granting Immortality through he blood of Christ (Spiritual)

 

[thesunisout]

"
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Speaks of Physical death and a Physical change and new nature apart from sin.

Is being baptized into his death a physical death? No, this is talking about the spiritual regeneration we undergo when we are born again. The old man is buried with Christ, and the new man is raised to life. This is spiritual, not physical.


For he that is dead is freed from sin.8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Is being dead with Christ to be physically dead? Does any of this free us from physical death? No, it does not.

"
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." all referring to Physical death.

If that were true then we would no longer die physical deaths. Christ died for sin, and He was raised to life..therefore we are dead to sin and alive through Christ. If we are dead to sin, then why we do we die, if the wages of sin is death? Your definition makes no sense at all. If this is all referring to physical death then we shouldn't die since we are dead to sin. You have proved yourself wrong with these verses.
"

"
5What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death." Physical obedience in the christian Mortality.

These are talking about the sanctification process and do not support your case. I don't really understand why you're talking to make this distinction in the first place. What is your point?

"
other Scriptures correlate. Like Paul talking about Jesus being the new Adam, and through one man death entered the world (Physical) and Jesus death(Physical) taking all the wrath of God, Granting Immortality through he blood of Christ (Spiritual)

We are speaking specifically about Romans 6, and verse 23.

Are you going to address my post? Here it is again:

"Yes, it is Romans 6:23...and you have to look at the contrast. Look at it again:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Is not the one who is saved by the blood of Christ still going to die? Why then are they contrasted against one another if death in this verse refers to physical death? If that were true then the verse makes no sense at all since those saved by Jesus will still die a physical death. No, this is talking about eternal death, just as being saved with Christ is eternal life. The meaning is obvious if you examine why death is framed in opposition to eternal life."

 

[Cribstyl]

The wages of sin is death, which is the second death in the lake of fire.

That's right.

This is why the dead will be raised up for judgment.

 

[Stryder06]

My only conclusion is that you didn't read what I wrote.

The only payment that could ever suffice for the gap between the sinner and God is the self-sacrifice of the God-man, the only thing that could ever atone for the sins of the elect and bring them out of hell satisfying the Holy and Just Triune God's Holiness and Justice is the outpouring of God's Grace and Justice in a single act upon the Cross, this is what he chose, this is how he satisfies his Justice, his Holiness, his Grace, his Mercy.

I read what you wrote, but it would seem as if you're still not understanding the question. Christ paid the penalty for sin so that those who accept Him can be saved. Those who reject Christ must pay that penalty themselves.

If the penalty/payment/debt owed for sin is eternal suffering in Hell fire, then Christ didn't fulfill that debt, so our payment remains.

 

[Optimax]

That doesn't really answer the question. I don't see how faith plays into it either. If the punishment (debt) for sin is eternal suffering in hell, then the debt remains unpaid.

The "punishment" of hell is only to those who refuse to accept the "payment" for sin that Jesus made.

Jesus paid the debt in full.

We are required to choose though, if we will accept Him or not.

 

[Stryder06]

The "punishment" of hell is only to those who refuse to accept the "payment" for sin that Jesus made.

Jesus paid the debt in full.

We are required to choose though, if we will accept Him or not.

The question is what is that debt?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There is no such thing as a sin debt.

Are you saying that the idea of humans having a "sin debt" doesn't exist? Just want to make sure I don't misunderstand you.

You may be wondering why we are discussing the origin of men when
we set out to talk about the Word's becoming Man. The former subject is
relevant to the latter for this reason: it was our sorry case that
caused the Word to come down, our transgression that called out His
love for us, so that He made haste to help us and to appear among us.

It is we who were the cause of His taking human form, and for our
salvation that in His great love He was both born and manifested in a
human body. For God had made man thus (that is, as an embodied spirit),
and had willed that he should remain in incorruption. But men, having
turned from the contemplation of God to evil of their own devising, had
come inevitably under the law of death. Instead of remaining in the
state in which God had created them, they were in process of becoming
corrupted entirely, and death had them completely under its dominion.

For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back
again according to their nature; and as they had at the beginning come
into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to
returning, through corruption, to non-existence again. The presence and
love of the Word had called them into being; inevitably, therefore when
they lost the knowledge of God, they lost existence with it; for it is
God alone Who exists, evil is non-being, the negation and antithesis of
good. By nature, of course, man is mortal, since he was made from
nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he
preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature
is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt. So is it affirmed in
Wisdom: "The keeping of His laws is the assurance of incorruption."
And being incorrupt, he would be henceforth as God, as Holy Scripture
says, "I have said, Ye are gods and sons of the Highest all of you: but
ye die as men and fall as one of the princes."

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Stryder06]

There is no such thing as a sin debt.





God be gracious to me a sinner.

I meant to ask you about this. I read what you quoted and wasn't finding any correlation as to how this showed that there isn't a sin debt. Mind explaining it to me?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The question is what is that debt?

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA There is no such thing as a sin debt.

I meant to ask you about this.
I read what you quoted and wasn't finding any correlation as to how this showed that there isn't a sin debt. Mind explaining it to me?

Here is a rather unique perspective on that:

[link courtesy of "Lamb-links"]

http://www.christianforums.com/t4677762-5/#post31188562
Did you know debt means sin?

Did everyone pay off their Christmas bills, yet?

I didn't charge this year, ha, ha ... I paid cash, of course I still owe a small amount on one
credit card for misc. items, but I intend to get that down as soon as possible so I can use
the card for emergencies only.

How many times have you said that ...?

Debt free is where it's at ...

I bet debt free people even give more when the plate gets passed ...

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another
has fulfilled the law Romans 13:8

debt noun
1 syn EVIL 2, sin, wickedness, wrong
2syn INDEBTEDNESS 1, arrearage, liability, obligation
3something (as money) that is owed <struggling to keep ahead of his debts>

Here is the proper definition:

debt

noun 1.something that is owed or that one is bound to pay to or perform for another: a debt of $50. 2.a liability or obligation to pay or render something: My debt to her for advice is not to be discharged easily. 3.the condition of being under such an obligation: His gambling losses put him deeply in debt.
4.Theology. an offense requiring reparation; a sin; a trespass.

 

[Optimax]

The question is what is that debt?

That "debt" is the nature (sin) of the devil mankind received when Adam disobeyed God.

Jesus sacrifice of himself made it possible for any person to "get rid" of that "nature" by accepting Jesus' sacrifice for himself, personally, and being born again with a new "nature" from God.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I meant to ask you about this. I read what you quoted and wasn't finding any correlation as to how this showed that there isn't a sin debt. Mind explaining it to me?

Now, how is it that I would show you something that doesn't exist?

I was showing you what does exist.

Until we get into western theology... there is no such thing. It wasn't explained that way. It was explained the way Athanasius gives it in "On the Incarnation."

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Stryder06 I meant to ask you about this.

I read what you quoted and wasn't finding any correlation as to how this showed that there isn't a sin debt. Mind explaining it to me?

Now, how is it that I would show you something that doesn't exist?

.

Ya gotta point there


.

 

[Stryder06]

That "debt" is the nature (sin) of the devil mankind received when Adam disobeyed God.

Jesus sacrifice of himself made it possible for any person to "get rid" of that "nature" by accepting Jesus' sacrifice for himself, personally, and being born again with a new "nature" from God.

So the debt owed to God is the sin nature?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Have you ever read: Sinners in the hands of an angry God?

It's a fine example of bad theology.

Select Sermons - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Stryder06]

Now, how is it that I would show you something that doesn't exist?

I was showing you what does exist.

Until we get into western theology... there is no such thing. It wasn't explained that way. It was explained the way Athanasius gives it in "On the Incarnation."

God be gracious to me a sinner.

The wages of sin is death. This means the sinner has to make payment (thus a debt is owed). The explanation provided by you doesn't seem to say much of anything in that agrees with what the bible says.

 

[Stryder06]

Have you ever read: Sinners in the hands of an angry God?

It's a fine example of bad theology.

Select Sermons - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Can't say that I have. I'm not big on reading sermons

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

When God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden... did he infer in any way that they owed God a debt.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The wages of sin is death. This means the sinner has to make payment (thus a debt is owed). The explanation provided by you doesn't seem to say much of anything in that agrees with what the bible says.

I see that a lot here on GT [the Sabbath comes to mind]


.

 

[Optimax]

So the debt owed to God is the sin nature?

That sin nature if not removed by being born again or from above is a "debt" we cannot pay.

A person that suffers physical death without being born again, condemns themselves to hell which is a spiritual prison for eternity.