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Objective morality, Evidence for God's existence

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I doubt that he is "hateful".

Rather, he is twisting his brain in knots trying to defend his dogma. That's the sort of thing that happens when one places anything higher than reason.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Really? You don't think he's worth that epithet? He's trying to JUSTIFY GENOCIDE. He thinks that the people harmed in mass murder ARE THE MURDERERS.

If his god commanded him to kill an innocent child in the street, he would do so, and consider that he had DONE A MORAL GOOD.

I'm at a loss f'r words here.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Really? You don't think he's worth that epithet? He's trying to JUSTIFY GENOCIDE.

And I believe it is a purely intellectual exercise for him.

I don't mean to diminish the issue of genocide, which is a great evil, but to describe someone as "hateful" suggests to me that someone is literally filled with the emotion of hate. I don't know that this is true of him.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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And I believe it is a purely intellectual exercise for him.

I don't mean to diminish the issue of genocide, which is a great evil, but to describe someone as "hateful" suggests to me that someone is literally filled with the emotion of hate. I don't know that this is true of him.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Ah. A good point. I stand corrected. Well, technically I hang upside down from the bowsprit, but you get the point.
 
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madaz

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Still waiting for someone to debate me on the topic of their choice in an agreed upon format.

Until then, I will not be addressing the various emotional responses and comments

I'll accept your invitation Elioenai26, but we must debate on a forum where there is no netiquette eg. Atheistforums or Facebook. but strictly only under these rules.

r1) The participants need to be willing to change their minds on a topic if there is a rational justification and evidentiary support to do so.

This is the basis of a reasonable and rational discourse.

r2) If a particular argument is demonstrated to be faulty due to a logical fallacy, the participant in question agrees to cease using this argument ever again.

This rule ensures that any logical fallacies presented are dealt with appropriately.

r3) If a particular claim is shown to be based on a source which either does not understand the topic or misrepresents the actual topic, the participant in question will agree that this source is now deemed unreliable regarding this field.

This rule is in place to ensure accountability of sources. If a source is demonstrated to be unreliable regarding a particular topic or field, it needs to be acknowledged as such.

r4) The participants agree that the position with the most supporting evidence and an absence of falsifying evidence is the most likely to be accurate.

This rule deals with the probability of one position being more accurate over another. It is closely akin but not identical to Occam's Razor.

r5) The person making the claim that something exists or something occurred has the burden of proof in providing evidence for the claim.

This rule simply establishes where the burden of proof lies.

r6) If a claim is made and it is shown to be either logically inconsistent or unsupported / falsified by evidence, the participant is not to move onto another claim without first accepting that the previous claim has been successfully refuted.

This rule is in place to ensure intellectual honesty and accountability of claims made. If a claim is successfully refuted as either logically inconsistent or unsupported / falsified by evidence, this must be acknowledged before moving on.

r7) The participants will not simply post a link farm but provide their understanding of what they are linking to.

This rule is in place to prevent the participants from "thread bombing" a list of links with no reference as to what they are or why they are posted. It is up to "you" to do the work in establishing your position.

r8) References to peer review journals by experts in the relevant field are preferred over WLC website goddoexist dot com (hypothetical)

This rule is in place to ensure that references in peer reviewed journals, written by people who are credentialed in the specific field are preferred as a reputable source over uncredentialed, non-peer reviewed works.

r9) Do not post a link to a 1 hour video without quoting the section which backs your position and provide a reference e.g. at 37:21 so and so describes how ......

This rule is in place for common courtesy. I can see no reason for you to object to this rule unless your intent is to post links to long videos with no reference to where in the video your supporting reference is or even what the relevance.

r10) 3 post maximum on your turn. Any posts beyond the 3 post maximum for your turn can be ignored. This will ensure that each proponent will definitely know when the other has finished their turn.

This rule is in place to ensure an orderly process of point, counter-point discussion.

r11) Repeated failure to adhere to the rules can result in a termination of the discussion.

This rule is in place to provide an end point to the discussion if repeated breaches of the previous 10 rules occur.

One post per turn is preferred (definitely no more than 3). Please take your time with this there is no rush. Don't feel you have to respond immediately. Remember once you post, your turn is over and you then have to wait for me to respond. I live in Australia so allow a delay for time difference.

Do you accept?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Still waiting for someone to debate me on the topic of their choice in an agreed upon format.

Until then, I will not be addressing the various emotional responses and comments.

In fact, I offer the invitation to Rilke's Granddaughter to debate on whatever topic she wishes.

What purpose will a debate serve that isn't met by the current form of conversation?
 
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KCfromNC

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Not at all.

But in this forum, everyone makes claims one way or the other. Claims come in one's expression of their views on a particular topic and are usually expressed in the form of an answer to a question. The question oftimes being here in these forums: "Does God Exist?"

This kind of discussion is off topic for a thread about objective morality. Please respect the OP's continued requests to keep the discussion on topic.
 
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KCfromNC

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Several things to note:

1. They were not following orders from God. How do I know this? Well quite simple, God, assuming He exists as you are assuming by your hypothetical, is the Greatest Conceivable Being - Anselm, and therefore the Highest Good. The Highest Good would not order genocide, which is what the Holocaust essentially was.

This assumes there is some sort of objective morality external to God to measure his actions against. If so, God can't be the source of this morality which contradicts your original premise #1.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Except for premise (1) does not argue that God is the source of morality, so your objection is aimed at a strawman.

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

If it isn't argued for, it is strongly implied.

I doubt that you are suggesting that morality is the source of God. And if God and morality just happen to co-exist, that seems pretty arbitrary if one isn't the source of the other.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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E

Elioenai26

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1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

If it isn't argued for, it is strongly implied.

I doubt that you are suggesting that morality is the source of God. And if God and morality just happen to co-exist, that seems pretty arbitrary if one isn't the source of the other.


eudaimonia,

Mark

One's opinion of the implications of the argument have no bearing on the conclusion of the argument derived from the two premises.
 
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Gadarene

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1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

If it isn't argued for, it is strongly implied.

I doubt that you are suggesting that morality is the source of God. And if God and morality just happen to co-exist, that seems pretty arbitrary if one isn't the source of the other.


eudaimonia,

Mark

If the connection between God and morality isn't necessary then one could easily demolish the first premise with a correlation-isn't-necessarily-causation type argument.
 
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Eudaimonist

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One's opinion of the implications of the argument have no bearing on the conclusion of the argument derived from the two premises.

My opinion regards the implications of the premise. That certainly does have bearing on any argument that is based on those premises.

Your approach seems to me either sophistic or overly rationalistic, or both.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Elioenai26

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If the connection between God and morality isn't necessary then one could easily demolish the first premise with a correlation-isn't-necessarily-causation type argument.

The first premise of the moral argument states:

If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

Now, I challenge you to build a case against that premise. You see in order to build a case against it, you must first know how it is constructed, and what weaknesses if any, are inherent in its formational structure. I will save you the time, there are none.

The only way for you to attack (1) is to offer some undercutting defeater or rebutting defeater to (1) to demonstrate why its denial is more plausibly true. I will wait for your response.
 
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E

Elioenai26

Guest
My opinion regards the implications of the premise. That certainly does have bearing on any argument that is based on those premises.

Your approach seems to me either sophistic or overly rationalistic, or both.


eudaimonia,

Mark

No just philosophic.

The point still remains, the first premise of the moral argument does not argue that God is necessarily the source of morality. The formulation of the first premise is engineered to bear the minimal burden or epistemic weight for the premise to be sound. In fact, the conclusion of the argument does not even argue that God is the source of objective morality. It simply concludes that God exists.

So any objection raised in the manner in which you are trying to raise it will be aimed at a strawman. That is why no one who is offering an argument against the moral argument in an academic setting will try to level the charge against it that you are. They know it is a fallacy.
 
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E

Elioenai26

Guest
I'll accept your invitation Elioenai26, but we must debate on a forum where there is no netiquette eg. Atheistforums or Facebook. but strictly only under these rules.

r1) The participants need to be willing to change their minds on a topic if there is a rational justification and evidentiary support to do so.

This is the basis of a reasonable and rational discourse.

r2) If a particular argument is demonstrated to be faulty due to a logical fallacy, the participant in question agrees to cease using this argument ever again.

This rule ensures that any logical fallacies presented are dealt with appropriately.

r3) If a particular claim is shown to be based on a source which either does not understand the topic or misrepresents the actual topic, the participant in question will agree that this source is now deemed unreliable regarding this field.

This rule is in place to ensure accountability of sources. If a source is demonstrated to be unreliable regarding a particular topic or field, it needs to be acknowledged as such.

r4) The participants agree that the position with the most supporting evidence and an absence of falsifying evidence is the most likely to be accurate.

This rule deals with the probability of one position being more accurate over another. It is closely akin but not identical to Occam's Razor.

r5) The person making the claim that something exists or something occurred has the burden of proof in providing evidence for the claim.

This rule simply establishes where the burden of proof lies.

r6) If a claim is made and it is shown to be either logically inconsistent or unsupported / falsified by evidence, the participant is not to move onto another claim without first accepting that the previous claim has been successfully refuted.

This rule is in place to ensure intellectual honesty and accountability of claims made. If a claim is successfully refuted as either logically inconsistent or unsupported / falsified by evidence, this must be acknowledged before moving on.

r7) The participants will not simply post a link farm but provide their understanding of what they are linking to.

This rule is in place to prevent the participants from "thread bombing" a list of links with no reference as to what they are or why they are posted. It is up to "you" to do the work in establishing your position.

r8) References to peer review journals by experts in the relevant field are preferred over WLC website goddoexist dot com (hypothetical)

This rule is in place to ensure that references in peer reviewed journals, written by people who are credentialed in the specific field are preferred as a reputable source over uncredentialed, non-peer reviewed works.

r9) Do not post a link to a 1 hour video without quoting the section which backs your position and provide a reference e.g. at 37:21 so and so describes how ......

This rule is in place for common courtesy. I can see no reason for you to object to this rule unless your intent is to post links to long videos with no reference to where in the video your supporting reference is or even what the relevance.

r10) 3 post maximum on your turn. Any posts beyond the 3 post maximum for your turn can be ignored. This will ensure that each proponent will definitely know when the other has finished their turn.

This rule is in place to ensure an orderly process of point, counter-point discussion.

r11) Repeated failure to adhere to the rules can result in a termination of the discussion.

This rule is in place to provide an end point to the discussion if repeated breaches of the previous 10 rules occur.

One post per turn is preferred (definitely no more than 3). Please take your time with this there is no rush. Don't feel you have to respond immediately. Remember once you post, your turn is over and you then have to wait for me to respond. I live in Australia so allow a delay for time difference.

Do you accept?

One of the main purposes in my desire to debate is to have the people here who have been faithful in objecting to my various posts be witnesses to the debate. This would not be feasible unless the debate was held in this forum.
 
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Ken-1122

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Still waiting for someone to debate me on the topic of their choice in an agreed upon format.

Until then, I will not be addressing the various emotional responses and comments.

In fact, I offer the invitation to Rilke's Granddaughter to debate on whatever topic she wishes.
What are you waiting for? I asked you a question on post #554 and you have yet to respond. Care to start there?

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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The first premise of the moral argument states:

If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.

Now, I challenge you to build a case against that premise. You see in order to build a case against it, you must first know how it is constructed, and what weaknesses if any, are inherent in its formational structure. I will save you the time, there are none.

The only way for you to attack (1) is to offer some undercutting defeater or rebutting defeater to (1) to demonstrate why its denial is more plausibly true. I will wait for your response.
You haven’t stated why God must exist in order for moral values to exist. Explain exactly why God’s existence is necessary for objective moral values to exist, then I will attempt to build a case against your claim.

K
 
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