Objective morality, Evidence for God's existence

[Elioenai26]

What you just said agrees with him.

Those are mythical themes a customs from the Canaanites?

Are you even serious or are you just being facetious?

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

Those are mythical themes a customs from the Canaanites?

Are you even serious or are you just being facetious?

Read it as applying to denominations and orthodoxy. You just pointed out that the winners dictate orthodoxy. It doesn't make them right.

 

[Elioenai26]

Genocide: Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)

God ordered genocide. He ordered the murder of innocents.

No where in that definition do I see: "an act of judgment by God on a group of people, who after having been given several hundred years time to ammend their brutal and wicked ways were given additional warning and still refused to repent before being judged for their actions."

I do not see that in the definition but also would like to remind you of the following:



The situation is thus:

1. The Amalekites are a predatory, raiding, and nomadic group; and are descendants of Esau (and hence, distant cousins to Israel).
2. They would have been aware of the promise of the Land TO Israel, from the early promises to Esau's twin Jacob.
3. They did NOT live in Canaan (but in the lower, desert part of the Negev--a region south of where Judah will eventually settle), and would NOT have been threatened by Israel--had they believed the promises of God.
4. As soon as Israel escapes Egypt--before they can even 'catch their breath'--the Amalekites make a long journey south(!) and attack Israel.
5. Their first targets were the helpless:
   
   Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. 19 When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget! (Deut 25.17-19).
   ​
6. Before the attack on Amalek is initiated by Israel, the innocent are told to 'move away' from them: Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. (I Sam 15.5f). This action would have also served to give the people of Amalek plenty of notice (i.e., time to 'move away' themselves), and the impending attack by Saul--especially with the troop counts reported!--would hardly have been a surprise. Some of them would likely have fled--we KNOW all of them were not killed, since they 'lived to fight/raid again' in David's time (I Sam 27,30) and even in Hezekiah's time (200-300 years later!, 1 Chr 4.43).

Kaiser notes in EBC: Exodus 17.8:

Amalek's assault on Israel drew the anger of God on two counts: (1) they failed to recognize the hand and plan of God in Israel's life and destiny (even the farther-removed Canaanites of Jericho had been given plenty to think about when they heard about the Exodus--Josh 2.10); and (2) the first targets of their warfare were the sick, aged, and tired of Israel who lagged behind the line of march (Deut 25:17-19).
​

But Amalek continues to repeatedly oppress, terrorize, and vandalize Israel for between 200 and 400 more years! And yet, Amalekites were freely accepted as immigrants to Israel during this period.
Let's note again that

(1) they had plenty of access to 'truth' (at LEAST 400 years since Jacob and Land-promise), plus enough information about the miraculous Exodus to know where/when to attack Israel;
(2) even their war conduct was cruel by current standards(!);
(3) the semi-annihilation was a judgment;
(4) God was willing to spare the innocent people--and specifically gave them the opportunity to move away;
(5) children living in the households of stubbornly-hostile parents (who refused to flee or join Israel earlier) died swiftly in the one-day event (instead of being killed--as homeless orphans--by a combination of starvation, wild beasts, exposure, disease, and other raiders; or instead of being captured and sold as foreign slaves by neighboring tribes, for the older ones perhaps?)--they are victims of their fathers' terrorist and oppressive habits toward Israel;
(6) the innocent members of the community (Kenites) and any change-of-heart Amalekites who fled are delivered (along with their children of the household).

A big shout out goes to Glenn Miller over at the http://www.christianthinktank.com/ for his invaluble work and contribution to these issues for the Kingdom of God!

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

No where in that definition do I see: "an act of judgment by God on a group of people, who after having been given several hundred years time to ammend their brutal and wicked ways were given additional warning and still refused to repent before being judged for their actions."

I do not see that in the definition but also would like to remind you of the following:

The situation is thus:
[*]The Amalekites are a predatory, raiding, and nomadic group; and are descendants of Esau (and hence, distant cousins to Israel).
[*]They would have been aware of the promise of the Land TO Israel, from the early promises to Esau's twin Jacob.
[*]They did NOT live in Canaan (but in the lower, desert part of the Negev--a region south of where Judah will eventually settle), and would NOT have been threatened by Israel--had they believed the promises of God.
[*]As soon as Israel escapes Egypt--before they can even 'catch their breath'--the Amalekites make a long journey south(!) and attack Israel.
[*]Their first targets were the helpless:
Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. 19 When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget! (Deut 25.17-19).

[*]Before the attack on Amalek is initiated by Israel, the innocent are told to 'move away' from them: Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. (I Sam 15.5f). This action would have also served to give the people of Amalek plenty of notice (i.e., time to 'move away' themselves), and the impending attack by Saul--especially with the troop counts reported!--would hardly have been a surprise. Some of them would likely have fled--we KNOW all of them were not killed, since they 'lived to fight/raid again' in David's time (I Sam 27,30) and even in Hezekiah's time (200-300 years later!, 1 Chr 4.43).
Kaiser notes in EBC: Exodus 17.8:
Amalek's assault on Israel drew the anger of God on two counts: (1) they failed to recognize the hand and plan of God in Israel's life and destiny (even the farther-removed Canaanites of Jericho had been given plenty to think about when they heard about the Exodus--Josh 2.10); and (2) the first targets of their warfare were the sick, aged, and tired of Israel who lagged behind the line of march (Deut 25:17-19).
But Amalek continues to repeatedly oppress, terrorize, and vandalize Israel for between 200 and 400 more years! And yet, Amalekites were freely accepted as immigrants to Israel during this period.
Let's note again that

(1) they had plenty of access to 'truth' (at LEAST 400 years since Jacob and Land-promise), plus enough information about the miraculous Exodus to know where/when to attack Israel;
(2) even their war conduct was cruel by current standards(!);
(3) the semi-annihilation was a judgment;
(4) God was willing to spare the innocent people--and specifically gave them the opportunity to move away;
(5) children living in the households of stubbornly-hostile parents (who refused to flee or join Israel earlier) died swiftly in the one-day event (instead of being killed--as homeless orphans--by a combination of starvation, wild beasts, exposure, disease, and other raiders; or instead of being captured and sold as foreign slaves by neighboring tribes, for the older ones perhaps?)--they are victims of their fathers' terrorist and oppressive habits toward Israel;
(6) the innocent members of the community (Kenites) and any change-of-heart Amalekites who fled are delivered (along with their children of the household).

A big shout out goes to Glenn Miller over at the http://www.christianthinktank.com/ for his invaluble work and contribution to these issues for the Kingdom of God!

God ordered the extermination of an entire people, including innocents. The motivation is NOT A FACTOR. My definition applies.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

God ordered the extermination of an entire people, including innocents. The motivation is NOT A FACTOR. My definition applies.

If your god ordered the extermination of every Muslim, would you go along? Would you agree that was right? Would you kill and rape the women and butcher the children as god ordered you to?

 

[Illuminaughty]

They would have been aware of the promise of the Land TO Israel, from the early promises to Esau's twin Jacob

They may not have believed that or may have even had their own alternate mythology that said the land belonged to them. Unless God shows up in person in some miraculous way to have a chat with me I'm certainly not going to give up my property because someone claimed that God told them my city actually belonged to them.

The Amalekites are a predatory, raiding, and nomadic group; and are descendants of Esau (and hence, distant cousins to Israel).

The Jewish records make them out to be the bad guys. I'm sure if the Amalekites would have won they would have talked about the predatory raiding Israelites. Even the Israelite own records shows them as raiding, sacking cities, and exterminating everyone who lived in them. All the people in the region seemed a little blood thirsty by modern western standards.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

No where in that definition do I see: "an act of judgment by God on a group of people, who after having been given several hundred years time to ammend their brutal and wicked ways were given additional warning and still refused to repent before being judged for their actions."

I do not see that in the definition but also would like to remind you of the following:

The situation is thus:
[*]The Amalekites are a predatory, raiding, and nomadic group; and are descendants of Esau (and hence, distant cousins to Israel).
[*]They would have been aware of the promise of the Land TO Israel, from the early promises to Esau's twin Jacob.
[*]They did NOT live in Canaan (but in the lower, desert part of the Negev--a region south of where Judah will eventually settle), and would NOT have been threatened by Israel--had they believed the promises of God.
[*]As soon as Israel escapes Egypt--before they can even 'catch their breath'--the Amalekites make a long journey south(!) and attack Israel.
[*]Their first targets were the helpless:
Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. 19 When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget! (Deut 25.17-19).

[*]Before the attack on Amalek is initiated by Israel, the innocent are told to 'move away' from them: Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. (I Sam 15.5f). This action would have also served to give the people of Amalek plenty of notice (i.e., time to 'move away' themselves), and the impending attack by Saul--especially with the troop counts reported!--would hardly have been a surprise. Some of them would likely have fled--we KNOW all of them were not killed, since they 'lived to fight/raid again' in David's time (I Sam 27,30) and even in Hezekiah's time (200-300 years later!, 1 Chr 4.43).
Kaiser notes in EBC: Exodus 17.8:
Amalek's assault on Israel drew the anger of God on two counts: (1) they failed to recognize the hand and plan of God in Israel's life and destiny (even the farther-removed Canaanites of Jericho had been given plenty to think about when they heard about the Exodus--Josh 2.10); and (2) the first targets of their warfare were the sick, aged, and tired of Israel who lagged behind the line of march (Deut 25:17-19).
But Amalek continues to repeatedly oppress, terrorize, and vandalize Israel for between 200 and 400 more years! And yet, Amalekites were freely accepted as immigrants to Israel during this period.
Let's note again that

(1) they had plenty of access to 'truth' (at LEAST 400 years since Jacob and Land-promise), plus enough information about the miraculous Exodus to know where/when to attack Israel;
(2) even their war conduct was cruel by current standards(!);
(3) the semi-annihilation was a judgment;
(4) God was willing to spare the innocent people--and specifically gave them the opportunity to move away;
(5) children living in the households of stubbornly-hostile parents (who refused to flee or join Israel earlier) died swiftly in the one-day event (instead of being killed--as homeless orphans--by a combination of starvation, wild beasts, exposure, disease, and other raiders; or instead of being captured and sold as foreign slaves by neighboring tribes, for the older ones perhaps?)--they are victims of their fathers' terrorist and oppressive habits toward Israel;
(6) the innocent members of the community (Kenites) and any change-of-heart Amalekites who fled are delivered (along with their children of the household).

A big shout out goes to Glenn Miller over at the http://www.christianthinktank.com/ for his invaluble work and contribution to these issues for the Kingdom of God!

There is no evidence the Amelekites knew any of these things. You attempt to justify genocide and murder through non-biblical rationales.

Fail.

 

[Elioenai26]

God ordered the extermination of an entire people, including innocents. The motivation is NOT A FACTOR. My definition applies.

That is your opinion.

Remember how you told me that I needed to support my statements instead of just giving my opinion?

Well, same goes for you Ms. Rilke.

 

[Elioenai26]

If your god ordered the extermination of every Muslim, would you go along? Would you agree that was right? Would you kill and rape the women and butcher the children as god ordered you to?

When has God ordered the extermination of a group of people because they were Muslim?

When has God ordered the murder and rape of women and the butchering of children?

Spare me the emotional tirades and exaggerated hypotheticals. They are so unbecoming.

 

[Illuminaughty]

Genocide can happen based on a variety of differnt motives. Alleging that it was based on a certain motivation doesn't prevent it from being genocide. Amakelites were violent = /= it's impossible to commit genocide against them.

 

[Elioenai26]

They may not have believed that or may have even had their own alternate mythology that said the land belonged to them. Unless God shows up in person in some miraculous way to have a chat with me I'm certainly not going to give up my property because someone claimed that God told them my city actually belonged to them.

I assure you, the Amalekites were well aware of Israel's miraculous deliverance from the Egyptians by God's power and providence.

And you are not them so that assertion is immaterial.

The Jewish records make them out to be the bad guys. I'm sure if the Amalekites would have won they would have talked about the predatory raiding Israelites.

Heresay and utter speculation.

 

[Illuminaughty]

When has God ordered the murder and rape of women and the butchering of children?

Do children breathe because they were supposed to kill everything that breathed in the cities they took in the verse I provided? Some translation have it saying "leave no person alive".

In another verse they are supposed to put all the boys to death as well as the women who were not virgins. They were allowed to keep the young virgin girls for themselves though. I wonder why they would want virgin girls?

"17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Numbers 31:17-18 (New International Version)

 

[Illuminaughty]

I assure you, the Amalekites were well aware of Israel's miraculous deliverance from the Egyptians by God's power and providence

I'm sure you can provide evidence then right?

And you are not them so that assertion is immaterial.

Not really. The "you got to give us this cause God said so" didn't work on them either. That's why the Jews had to fight them for the land. I was saying I can empathize with them there.

 

[Elioenai26]

I'm sure you can provide evidence then right?

Just use the same source you've been using for the other scripture verses you've taken out of context. The evidence is there.

 

[Illuminaughty]

Just use the same source you've been using for the other scripture verses you've taken out of context. The evidence is there.

Can you quote that part discusses the Amalekites knowledge of God having given the land to the Jews? Do they quote an actual Amalekites there or is it a Jewish person making the claim for them ? How do we know the claims are accurate?

Note also that the definition of genocide isn't dependent on god saying something or not either.

 

[Elioenai26]

Do children breathe because they were supposed to kill everything that breathed in the cities they took in the verse I provided?

God has never ordered the butchering of children. Spare me the hyperbolic over exaggeration. You want so desperately to take a handful of scripture and paint God as some cosmic sadomasochist who thrives off of butchering babies. The truth of the matter is that if God exists, he is the Creator of life and He can give life and take life. You also seem to forget that God has not remained aloof from the evils of this world but sent His own Son, born as a baby, to die for the sins of the world.

 

[Illuminaughty]

God has never ordered the butchering of children.

I agree but the authors of the verses I quoted seem to think otherwise.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

That is your opinion.

Remember how you told me that I needed to support my statements instead of just giving my opinion?

Well, same goes for you Ms. Rilke.

I did. Definition of genocide:

"Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." (Article 2 CPPCG)

I have highlighted the relevant portions, since you appear to have missed it.

Now, let's look at what God ORDERED:

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

QED

You will also notice that bit about killing children and infants? Something you claimed didn't happen?

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

God has never ordered the butchering of children.

May I quote your Bible? 1 Samuel 15:3

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

Note that bit about "put to death" "children and infants"?

 

[Illuminaughty]

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:18,19

No killing of kids right?