The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

[drstevej]

God sees all of humanity "In Christ." Of course we know that not all of humanity want to be "In Christ" these are the lost that will be revealed at his appearing.

This makes no sense. It is contradictory unless God is wrong.

 

[gmm4j]

You should probably stop equating election with justification.

The two are not synonymous.

Election happened in eternity past. Justification happens in time when we believe in Christ. This is true of both Calvinism and non-Calvinism. It's almost like you keep forgetting that even synergists believe in election. Even synergists believe that God chose the elect before the foundation of the world.

When you guys make silly arguments against Calvinism pertaining to election, you are equally arguing against your own position without realizing it. Personally, I get a chuckle out of this.

Skala,

Above you said, "Justification happens in time when we believe in Christ."

Do you mean this? If so, how is one made alive in Christ (regeneration) while still under the penalty of death (prior to belief and justification)?

 

[drstevej]

Regeneration and justification are simultaneous. The logical order is R >> J. There is no temporal sequence.

 

[gmm4j]

So, does that mean justification is prior to faith? Faith is the fruit of regeneration (simultaneous with justification), isn't it?

 

[drstevej]

Nope. All three are temporally simultaneous. The logical order in Calvinistic theology is R >> F >> J

 

[gmm4j]

Nope. All three are temporally simultaneous. The logical order in Calvinistic theology is R >> F >> J

Wow, all at once.

Rom 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 2:16
So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:24-25
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 3:30
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith

There is always a “time sequence” involved with a cause and effect scenario. Cause always comes first in time, followed by the effect. To say that regeneration and faith are simultaneous, and then state that regeneration makes faith possible is contradictory. If regeneration is necessary to make faith possible (regeneration/cause/first – results in – faith/effect/second), then regeneration must come first in a “time sequence.” This, however, is not what the bible teaches. Scripture teaches that faith comes first followed by justification and regeneration.

 

[gmm4j]

When we believe in Christ we not only receive pardon, but we also receive renewal. I am told that the teaching of certain people, nowadays, is that the believer only gets pardon to begin with and a long time afterwards he gets the clean heart. But I say, on the authority of God's Word, that no man is pardoned unless he has a clean heart! God gives the clean heart at the time He gives the pardon! You must never divide the renewing of the Holy Spirit from the pardon of sin. They go together and he that receives the pardon of sin receives a new birth — and is made a new creature in Christ Jesus then and there. The work of regeneration and the act of faith which brings justification to the penitent sinner are SIMULTANEOUS and must, in the nature of the case, always be so. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
http://greatchristianquotes.com/Quotes/simultaneous.htm


Even in Spurgeon’s quote arguing for a simultaneous view, he says, “When we believe in Christ we not only receive pardon, but we also receive renewal.” Later he states that this is simultaneous, but he lays out the correct order in this initial sentence, first belief and then the reception of pardon and renewal.

 

[Robert Pate]

This is the way that I see it.

Justification: God's work for us in Jesus Christ. The fulfilling of the law and the atonement for sin. This was for our justification. Because of the work of Christ God sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ." (Justified) Hebrews 10:14.

Sanctification: God's work in us by the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit is to glorify Christ and to work in the life of the believer making him a witness for Christ and his Gospel.

These are two separate aspects of salvation and should never be confused. If you mix these two up you will create a heresy. The Holy Spirit does not save. Christ is the savior.

They are all present in each other in the trinity but their works are different.

The Father stays in heaven.
The Son comes into the world as the savior.
The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son and works in the life of the beliver.

 

[gracewriterrandy]

The word "may" in 2 Tim. 2:10 does not imply doubt concerining the outcome. It is a subjunctive used in a purpose clause. An English example of this usage might be "I went to the market that I might buy milk." It does not imply that I might or might not buy milk, but that my purpose in going was to buy milk. Our purpose in preaching the gospel is that the elect might come to faith. The God who has ordained the end of all things, has also ordained the means by which those ends are accomplished. "How shall they hear without a preacher?"

 

[gracewriterrandy]

The word "may" in 2 Tim. 2:10 does not imply doubt concerining the outcome. It is a subjunctive used in a purpose clause. An English example of this usage might be "I went to the market that I might buy milk." It does not imply that I might or might not buy milk, but that my purpose in going was to buy milk. Our purpose in preaching the gospel is that the elect might come to faith. The God who has ordained the end of all things, has also ordained the means by which those ends are accomplished. "How shall they hear without a preacher?"

 

[gracewriterrandy]

Not everything God has planned has occurred. Predestination is God's blueprint. The existence of a blueprint does not obviate the need for building the house. Try living in a blueprint.

 

[Arcoe]

Not everything God has planned has occurred. Predestination is God's blueprint. The existence of a blueprint does not obviate the need for building the house. Try living in a blueprint.

Why does God need a blueprint? Is something going to happen that God did not know about in eternity past? Since everything is present before God, a blueprint is only needed to change the future. If God needs a blueprint, then logically, He does not know what will happen in the future, and has to plan for its occurrence, and somehow make it come to pass as His plan indicates.

Does man presently need a blueprint to build the Empire State building? Will the blueprint change the way it is built now? No, the construction has already happened, and a blueprint is worthless. A blueprint is only useful for something which hasn't occurred. So, I ask, what will happen in the future that God doesn't know about? Does God need a blueprint for future destiny of man? To say He needs a blueprint is denying His omniscience.

 

[gracewriterrandy]

God knows all that will occur because he has planned all that will occur. If everything stood present to God's view in eternity past, it must have been fixed in eternity past. Whether you believe it was predestined or not, it was settled in God's mind before creation.

The issue is the Scriptures make it clear God did far more than merely see it. He works All Things according to the counsel of his will. He planned it and he controls it.

My point with the blueprint illustration is that the plan is not the building.

 

[Arcoe]

God knows all that will occur because he has planned all that will occur. If everything stood present to God's view in eternity past, it must have been fixed in eternity past. Whether you believe it was predestined or not, it was settled in God's mind before creation.

The issue is the Scriptures make it clear God did far more than merely see it. He works All Things according to the counsel of his will. He planned it and he controls it.

My point with the blueprint illustration is that the plan is not the building.

Yet, if God had to plan something for the future, then He didn't know what would happen in the future. You deny omniscience if you adhere to this view.

 

[Arcoe]

God knows all that will occur because he has planned all that will occur. If everything stood present to God's view in eternity past, it must have been fixed in eternity past. Whether you believe it was predestined or not, it was settled in God's mind before creation.

The issue is the Scriptures make it clear God did far more than merely see it. He works All Things according to the counsel of his will. He planned it and he controls it.

My point with the blueprint illustration is that the plan is not the building.

Tell me, at point in eternity past, did God not know what would happen in the future that He had to create a blueprint for it?

 

[nobdysfool]

On other Christian Forums.

You should go back to them. What you're saying that Calvinism teaches is emphatically NOT what Calvinism teaches. Short answer, you're bearing false witness. That is the truth of the matter. Please, if you cannot tell the truth, it would be better to be silent.

 

[gracewriterrandy]

You have missed my point entirely. I did not say God needed a blueprint. From all eternity his purpose has stood present in his mind.

My point is that simply because God has purposed or planned an event, doesn't mean that event has occurred. He works all things according to the counsel of his will. In doing so, he uses means. One of the means he uses to bring about the salvation of those he has purposed to save is the preaching of the gospel. I likened the purpose of God to a blueprint and the preaching of the gospel to the construction of the building. I didn't think anyone would be so obtuse as to think I meant a real blueprint.

Do you believe God has any control at all over the events of history or do things just happen willy nilly?

 

[gracewriterrandy]

These guys don't seem to be bothered a great deal by what the Scriptures teach do they ?

 

[gmm4j]

These guys don't seem to be bothered a great deal by what the Scriptures teach do they ?

I know what you mean.

 

[Robert Pate]

You should go back to them. What you're saying that Calvinism teaches is emphatically NOT what Calvinism teaches. Short answer, you're bearing false witness. That is the truth of the matter. Please, if you cannot tell the truth, it would be better to be silent.

I have in my possession the writings of the Synod of Dordrecht also known as "The Canons of Dort."

I probably know more about Calvinism than you do.

The Canons of Dort are the Calvinist other Bible. I don't know why they need writings other than the Bible. Other religions need the same thing. The Mormons need the book of Mormon. Catholics need the catechism.

What I am saying in my opening post is that the witness of the apostles refutes Calvinism. The apostles did not think like Calvinist nor did they act like Calvinist. They were running all over Asia preaching the Gospel to who ever would hear it. They did not teach predestinationism. THEY PREACHED THE GOSPEL.