Literalism noticed by John

[Interplanner]

This thread is here because Judaism in the 1st century was pretty literalistic in ordinary talk, in ethics and in prophecy. Here are the 1st 10 times John mentions it.

CRASS LITERALISM IN PHARISEE THEOLOGY IN JOHN

R. Brinsmead was the first teacher I know who addressed the fact that there are several times when Jesus caught and corrected a very strict, literal mindset in Pharisee Judaism, in John’s Gospel. It is found in ethics, interpretation and eschatology.

Here are 10 examples.

2:20: “It has taken us 46 years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”

3:4: “How can a man be born when he is old?” Hmmm.

4:11: “Sir, you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?” (Samaritan Judaism)

4:33: “Could someone have brought him food?” (disciples)

5:45: “Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.” (an indirect example)

6:26, 30: “to ‘see’ miracles” (the crowd meant witness them; Jesus meant understand); “What miraculous sign will you give? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert…” Jesus: (33) “The bread of God is he who comes down from heaven…” 41: “The Jews (Pharisee) grumbled about him because…”

6:57: Here begins the literalism about ‘flesh’: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” several times

7:15: “Where did this man get such learning without having studied?” Sort of a institutionalization of literalism.

7:24: “Stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgement” speaks of their literalism in ethics.

7:39: “Will he go live among the Greeks?”

--Inter

 

[JLB777]

This thread is here because Judaism in the 1st century was pretty literalistic in ordinary talk, in ethics and in prophecy. Here are the 1st 10 times John mentions it.

CRASS LITERALISM IN PHARISEE THEOLOGY IN JOHN

R. Brinsmead was the first teacher I know who addressed the fact that there are several times when Jesus caught and corrected a very strict, literal mindset in Pharisee Judaism, in John’s Gospel. It is found in ethics, interpretation and eschatology.

Here are 10 examples.

2:20: “It has taken us 46 years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”

3:4: “How can a man be born when he is old?” Hmmm.

4:11: “Sir, you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?” (Samaritan Judaism)

4:33: “Could someone have brought him food?” (disciples)

5:45: “Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.” (an indirect example)

6:26, 30: “to ‘see’ miracles” (the crowd meant witness them; Jesus meant understand); “What miraculous sign will you give? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert…” Jesus: (33) “The bread of God is he who comes down from heaven…” 41: “The Jews (Pharisee) grumbled about him because…”

6:57: Here begins the literalism about ‘flesh’: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” several times

7:15: “Where did this man get such learning without having studied?” Sort of a institutionalization of literalism.

7:24: “Stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgement” speaks of their literalism in ethics.

7:39: “Will he go live among the Greeks?”

--Inter

3:4: “How can a man be born when he is old?” Hmmm.

Is one literally reborn spiritually, when they are born again or is this just a figure of speech and should be taken as such and not literally acted upon.


JLB

 

[ebedmelech]

Jesus used figurative language to cause them to stumble! This is not hard to see because Jesus stated it fulfills prophecy!

Jesus explained it to his disciple in Matthew 13:10-16:

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.
17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

This was an act of the FATHER!

 

[Interplanner]

Yes you should. But before you get there, there is Nic's problem: there is no spiritual life at all. That's not being said by Jesus to a Greek homosexual who grew up in the shadow of Aphrodite's shrine. Nic was a leader in Judaism, in its ethics, interpretation, eschatology.

In the same sense, when Paul says to be transformed from the pattern of this world in Rom 12, it is being driven along by what was just said in Rom 11. 'The pattern' is to think God has favorite people-groups or ethnos. Or that he works with one, then another, then another, so that each one can be cocky in turn. The 'world' is the religious world which tends to operate that way. The Gospel (ie, the mercies of God) upsets all those tables.

--Inter

 

[JLB777]

Yes you should. But before you get there, there is Nic's problem: there is no spiritual life at all. That's not being said by Jesus to a Greek homosexual who grew up in the shadow of Aphrodite's shrine. Nic was a leader in Judaism, in its ethics, interpretation, eschatology.

In the same sense, when Paul says to be transformed from the pattern of this world in Rom 12, it is being driven along by what was just said in Rom 11. 'The pattern' is to think God has favorite people-groups or ethnos. Or that he works with one, then another, then another, so that each one can be cocky in turn. The 'world' is the religious world which tends to operate that way. The Gospel (ie, the mercies of God) upsets all those tables.

--Inter

So in your mind, nothing literal happens to our spirit when we are born again?


JLB

 

[Interplanner]

Yes, of course. This question however has almost nothing to do with what John is refering to so frequently. He showed over and over that the mentality of Judaism at the time was crass-literal. When Jesus said John was Elijah, it was a novel rendering. Judaism had all kinds of expectations and a clockwork of things that would happen. To bridge beyond their mindset, Jesus stretched them even futher: "John was Elijah--if you can accept it." Whoever heard of such imprecision? But it was quite true in Christ. If you realized that the sacrifice Christ was going to make was actually the inauguration of the kingdom of God and the messianic age--if you could accept that, John was Elijah. The Gospel always demands bravery. Both or neither. There is no accepting the Gospel without absolute risk to one's self.

--Inter

 

[Biblewriter]

As usual, you are confusing the failure of the Jews to recognize commonly used figures of speech with accepting explicit statements of the Bible at face value.

These are two entirely different applications of scriptural principles. One is a failure to understand obvious figures of speech, while the other is simple belief of what God explicitly said.

If Israel will never have the boundaries so explicitly and precisely defined in Ezekiel 47:13-20, then God lied when he said, "This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel:" (Ezekiel 47:13)

Who should we believe, God, or you?

 

[ebedmelech]

As usual, you are confusing the failure of the Jews to recognize commonly used figures of speech with accepting explicit statements of the Bible at face value.

These are two entirely different applications of scriptural principles. One is a failure to understand obvious figures of speech, while the other is simple belief of what God explicitly said.

If Israel will never have the boundaries so explicitly and precisely defined in Ezekiel 47:13-20, then God lied when he said, "This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel:" (Ezekiel 47:13)

Who should we believe, God, or you?

Not when you understand exactly what's going on in Ezekiel 40-47!

It is NOT a literal temple in the first place! Ezekiel is in a vision and this is a "heavenly" temple as the one we read of starting in Rev 11:19.

Ezekiel clearly says he was "in the visions of God" (40:2), and therefore this is a revelation to Ezekiel from God. This is what Ezekiel is seeing. The idea that this temple will be built is a huge misreading of scripture.

I know where you stand on it...but as you read those chapters and Ezekiel is being escorted in the vision by "a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze," (Ezekiel 40:3).

Thinking this is a temple to be built is a big mistake! It is the "heavenly temple" that John speaks of in Revelation and he makes the distinction that this is "the temple in heaven" in several verses, but for my point I will use Rev 15:5:


After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened.

 

[JLB777]

Not when you understand exactly what's going on in Ezekiel 40-47!

It is NOT a literal temple in the first place! Ezekiel is in a vision and this is a "heavenly" temple as the one we read of starting in Rev 11:19.

Ezekiel clearly says he was "in the visions of God" (40:2), and therefore this is a revelation to Ezekiel from God. This is what Ezekiel is seeing. The idea that this temple will be built is a huge misreading of scripture.

I know where you stand on it...but as you read those chapters and Ezekiel is being escorted in the vision by "a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze," (Ezekiel 40:3).

Thinking this is a temple to be built is a big mistake! It is the "heavenly temple" that John speaks of in Revelation and he makes the distinction that this is "the temple in heaven" in several verses, but for my point I will use Rev 15:5:


After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


showing himself that he is God.

The temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt!

The Lawless one will reveal himself from the temple!


JLB

 

[ebedmelech]

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


showing himself that he is God.

The temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt!

The Lawless one will reveal himself from the temple!


JLB

Please show where in Ezekiel it says this temple will be built. Especially comsidering that this is before Israel and Judah returned from their exiles, and Ezekiel's "temple vision" is before Ezra and Nehemiah restored the temple.

I'll be waiting. Also tell us why Christ never even mentions the temple being rebuilt.

 

[Interplanner]

The Thess. letters were about 1st cent. Judea. That's why Paul is so put out with his oppenents. "The wrath of God has come on them completely." Almost makes you think he knew the events of 66+ would be as awful as they were.

--Inter

 

[Biblewriter]

Please show where in Ezekiel it says this temple will be built. Especially comsidering that this is before Israel and Judah returned from their exiles, and Ezekiel's "temple vision" is before Ezra and Nehemiah restored the temple.

I'll be waiting. Also tell us why Christ never even mentions the temple being rebuilt.

"And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places." (Ezekiel 43:7)

Jesus never mentioned this temple because there was no need to repeat what He had previously said through the Holy Spirit as revealed through Ezekiel.

 

[ebedmelech]

"And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places." (Ezekiel 43:7)

Jesus never mentioned this temple because there was no need to repeat what He had previously said through the Holy Spirit as revealed through Ezekiel.

Absolutely not. You just chopped a portion of this vision! Let's look at all of it:

6 Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me.
7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,
8 by setting their threshold by My threshold and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger.
9 Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever.

The error of what you're saying looms large when you include all of the passage...because Israel turned around and crucified Christ...they never put aside their "spiritual" harlotry and therefore you're doing faulty exegesis Biblewriter...remember what Jesus said..."I am the door"?

Rightly divide the word my friend! That is conditional within the vision Israel never repented.

 

[Biblewriter]

Absolutely not. You just chopped a portion of this vision! Let's look at all of it:

6 Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me.
7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,
8 by setting their threshold by My threshold and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger.
9 Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever.

The error of what you're saying looms large when you include all of the passage...because Israel turned around and crucified Christ...they never put aside their "spiritual" harlotry and therefore you're doing faulty exegesis Biblewriter...remember what Jesus said..."I am the door"?

Rightly divide the word my friend! That is conditional within the vision Israel never repented.

It says that they are to put away their harlotry because of what God is going to do. It does not say that God will do this if they put away their harlotry.

 

[ebedmelech]

It says that they are to put away their harlotry because of what God is going to do. It does not say that God will do this if they put away their harlotry.

No it doesn't...if that were true why would God say "So I have consumed them in My anger."

Take note that "consumed" is in the past tense. More than that...follow up with the conditional statement God says to Ezekiel in verses 10, 11:

10 “As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11 If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.

Notice God said *if*...they didn't!

 

[Biblewriter]

No it doesn't...if that were true why would God say "So I have consumed them in My anger."

Take note that "consumed" is in the past tense. More than that...follow up with the conditional statement God says to Ezekiel in verses 10, 11:

10 “As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11 If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.

Notice God said *if*...they didn't!

That is not what it says. It says "if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them." That is very different from saying "I will do it if they repent."

The knowledge of what God will do is reserved for those who have repented. But He will do what He intends regardless of what any man does.

 

[YeShallTread]

Absolutely not. You just chopped a portion of this vision! Let's look at all of it:

6 Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me.
7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,
8 by setting their threshold by My threshold and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger.
9 Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever.

The error of what you're saying looms large when you include all of the passage...because Israel turned around and crucified Christ...they never put aside their "spiritual" harlotry and therefore you're doing faulty exegesis Biblewriter...remember what Jesus said..."I am the door"?

Rightly divide the word my friend! That is conditional within the vision Israel never repented.

Actually, when we rightly divide the Word we know that Israel is both the house of Judah (Jews) and the house of Israel (Christians). All twelve are believers in God and all of us crucified Christ. The house of Israel (ten northern tibes) were long gone from Jeruslem so it was the house of Judah (Jews) that yelled "crucify Him, crucify Him" but He was crucified for all believers.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.
​

All of us are the reason for His crucifixion:

Galatians 1:4 Who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


​

 

[ebedmelech]

The house of Israel (ten northern tibes) were long gone from Jeruslem so it was the house of Judah (Jews) that yelled "crucify Him, crucify Him" but He was crucified for all believers.

This portion of your reply I don't agree with. The nation of Israel was never referred to as a divided kingdom after both returned from exile. and you would be hard pressed to prove that from scripture.

Post exile, Jerusalem was simply the location of the temple and where all Jews gathered for the feasts. They were under Roman rule and you wil not hear Jesus refer to Israel and Judah...they are one Israel.

Simply look at how Peter addresses them in his Pentecost sermon in Acts 2:22-24:
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Notice Peter says "THIS MAN (Jesus), YOU (MEN OF ISRAEL), nailed to a cross...". Peter is talking to the unified nation of Israel, not Judah and Israel...but Israel. There is no division.

Jesus, nor Peter, nor Paul makes NO distinction in Israel and Judah, therefore we shouldn't. Search the NT scriptures, and you'll see that clearly.

I think you carry that a little too far.

 

[ebedmelech]

That is not what it says. It says "if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them." That is very different from saying "I will do it if they repent."

The knowledge of what God will do is reserved for those who have repented. But He will do what He intends regardless of what any man does.

Classic semantics Biblewriter. But I will take the issue further to show this is a heavenly temple.

It is the very temple that John sees in Revelation! Let's look at Ezekiel's description in Ezekiel 40:1-6:
In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the Lord was upon me and He brought me there.
2 In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3 So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4 The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”
5 And behold, there was a wall on the outside of the temple all around, and in the man’s hand was a measuring rod of six cubits, each of which was a cubit and a handbreadth. So he measured the thickness of the wall, one rod; and the height, one rod.

Now look at John in Rev 21:10-17:
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.

This is a heavenly temple! If you don't see that, it's because you don't want to. Clearly John is giving us what Ezekiel saw, with more detail!!!

 

[YeShallTread]

This portion of your reply I don't agree with. The nation of Israel was never referred to as a divided kingdom after both returned from exile. and you would be hard pressed to prove that from scripture.

The house of Israel never returned from captivity under the Assyrian. They remain "scattered" as He intended. Only the house of Judah returned from the Babylonian captivity as written in Ezra and Nehemiah.

[Ezekiel 37] lets us know the two sticks will one day be joined but...not yet.

Post exile, Jerusalem was simply the location of the temple and where all Jews gathered for the feasts. They were under Roman rule and you wil not hear Jesus refer to Israel and Judah...they are one Israel.

You are mistaken for Jesus said:

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
​

Simply look at how Peter addresses them in his Pentecost sermon in Acts 2:22-24:
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Notice Peter says "THIS MAN (Jesus), YOU (MEN OF ISRAEL), nailed to a cross...". Peter is talking to the unified nation of Israel, not Judah and Israel...but Israel. There is no division.

Jesus, nor Peter, nor Paul makes NO distinction in Israel and Judah, therefore we shouldn't. Search the NT scriptures, and you'll see that clearly.

As shown above both Jesus and Paul made the distinction. I will add when Peter said, "men of Israel," you must realize that the house of Judah is Israel just as the house of Israel is Israel. All of them are Israel.

All are Israel but not all are Jews (house of Judah).

I think you carry that a little too far.

Unless one understands this separation how will one know the group God is addressing in various Scriptures?