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The Origin of the Gods

WonderBeat

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What say you people about the origin of the gods? Are they only myths? If so, how are they only myths? What is your evidence? If that evidence is lacking, internally inconsistent, or otherwise implausible, how willing are you to accept that the gods are in fact real?

Personally, I have no doubt that the gods exist. I believe there is evidence for their existence but what is more the evidence that they are merely myths is so lacking in my view (so lacking that even a child can see the absurdity in taking such explanations seriously) that that itself constitutes powerful grounds for accepting the gods' existence as real.

What say you?
 

Paradoxum

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What say you people about the origin of the gods? Are they only myths? If so, how are they only myths?

The gods were useful for various reasons, and psychologically helpful. Though my examples are very Abrahamic centred.

What did the world come from? God made it.
Where did life come from? God made it.
What is the meaning of life? Worship/ become one with God.
What is morality and where does it come from? It is a divine law from God.
What are these amazing experiences? Experiences of God.
Why is the universe ordered? God did it.
Why is the world so beautiful? God did it.
What happens after death? God sends you to heaven or hell.
Isn't it unfair that some evil people have good lives, and good people have bad lives? God will be Judge after death.
What is the mind and where does it come from? It is a magical soul from God.
What are these amazing coincidence? God's providence, or answer to prayer.

And so on, and so forth. God is the easy and comforting answer.

What is your evidence? If that evidence is lacking, internally inconsistent, or otherwise implausible, how willing are you to accept that the gods are in fact real?

Well I don't personally have evidence, but people do look into such things. God could be real, and it would be good if He was, but I doubt it.

Personally, I have no doubt that the gods exist. I believe there is evidence for their existence but what is more the evidence that they are merely myths is so lacking in my view (so lacking that even a child can see the absurdity in taking such explanations seriously) that that itself constitutes powerful grounds for accepting the gods' existence as real.

Can you explain why you think this?
 
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Ken-1122

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What say you people about the origin of the gods? Are they only myths? If so, how are they only myths? What is your evidence? If that evidence is lacking, internally inconsistent, or otherwise implausible, how willing are you to accept that the gods are in fact real?

Personally, I have no doubt that the gods exist. I believe there is evidence for their existence but what is more the evidence that they are merely myths is so lacking in my view (so lacking that even a child can see the absurdity in taking such explanations seriously) that that itself constitutes powerful grounds for accepting the gods' existence as real.

What say you?
I think there is plenty of evidence that which I would call God or Gods don’t exist. The fact that they seem so hidden and undetectable, the fact that those who do claim to detect them cannot agree on what it is that they are detecting (which causes me to doubt their claims), of all the God claims I’ve heard; none of them seem to make any sense; those are a few of many reason I don’t believe.

Ken
 
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Davian

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What say you people about the origin of the gods? Are they only myths? If so, how are they only myths?
The absence of evidence to the contrary.
What is your evidence?
None is required. The burden of evidence is on the one positing the existence of 'gods', whatever they mean by that word.
If that evidence is lacking, internally inconsistent, or otherwise implausible, how willing are you to accept that the gods are in fact real?
What do you mean 'real'? Gods are characters in books. Myths. Do you need evidence for that?
Personally, I have no doubt that the gods exist.
What evidence do you base that on?
I believe there is evidence for their existence
Such as? Something testable, replicable, demonstrable?
but what is more the evidence that they are merely myths is so lacking in my view
So you, in effect, are trying to push the burden of evidence on to the non-believer, asking them to prove a negative?

"Prove that my god is just a myth!"

lol.
(so lacking that even a child can see the absurdity in taking such explanations seriously) that that itself constitutes powerful grounds for accepting the gods' existence as real.

What say you?
Then have that child get an account here and post their opinion for themselves. It still will not be evidence for these gods that you posit.

Do you have children in your life? I do. They study gods as myths in school. Like myself, they have never thought of them as anything other than myth.
 
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WonderBeat

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The gods were useful for various reasons, and psychologically helpful.

Why, precisely, would the gods be useful or helpful to risen apes? God is in many ways a lofty abstraction. When it comes to things like survival on a day to day basis, foraging for food and being constantly on the move, it seems unlikely to me that such a lofty concept as God should ever have been relevant to stone aged people (as we usually conceive of them) as it would not have fulfilled any discernible role for them. So why make it up?

What did the world come from? God made it.

1. Why should stone aged people have even pondered where the world came from? It is, here and now, a brutal and challenging place, why speculate about it more than that? This would never have made any sense to me, that a God "made" the world - were I foraging human, that is. This argument or line of thought would only make sense as a relatively recent phenomenon - such as an Uncaused Cause argument, as they formulated in the Middle Ages. Otherwise, I am struggling for my next meal, and the concept of God creating the world (which requires a complex notion of causality lest you are willing to subscribe to the notion of creation ex nihilo - also a relatively advanced concept) is a non-starter. Also, the idea that the world "came to be" is less intuitive than that it always was. Unless you were inculcated from an early age that it indeed was created.

Where did life come from? God made it.

2. Why should I, again, as a stone aged person, ponder where life "came from"? It makes more sense to think that life always was, and that it consists of mating, sleeping, eating and defending. So again, a non-starter.

What is the meaning of life? Worship/ become one with God.

3. This is somewhat better, but the problem is: there is no evidence for this - that stone aged people would, on the basis of a "deeper meaning" have made up, by a complex rationale of sorts, that a God had something to do with it for which they had not seen any direct evidence (such as meeting up with God, say). They might have used made up concepts such as "spirits" to illustrate elements of their own psyche. But we have that, and it's called "art." Why should art therapy have ever risen beyond a form of catharsis for cave-dwellers doing finger painting? How is that evidence of all the "extravagant" claims made by primitive people that Gods, not only exist, but came to the earth and revealed themselves in a myriad of ways? No, this is not adequate.

What is morality and where does it come from? It is a divine law from God.

4. At one point did the nature spirits, which seem so fickle and chaotic, deliver the divine law then? This is a relatively recent phenomenon as well which requires a fairly complex set of ideas to get off the ground. I don't think primitives would have been capable of it: that God is a supremely Wise and Good Judge of all. And yet, oddly, it seems to be in existence (from my perspective at least) before the Abrahamic era.

What are these amazing experiences? Experiences of God.

5. Even such experiences as these need a direct referent for otherwise primitives would not be [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] enough to mistake "good feelings" for a Deity. They would have had to hallucinate that deity outright, which in groups is unlikely (a lone lunatic would have been outcast). Otherwise, it would have been just a "good feeling" on a par with a drug fix.

Why is the universe ordered? God did it.

6. Again, not obvious for the reasons aforementioned. Primitives do not have so advanced an idea of teleology.

Why is the world so beautiful? God did it.

7. Beauty simply is. Why not stop there? Surely a primitive would.

What happens after death? God sends you to heaven or hell.

8. Why think about death as opposed to try and avoid it? Death is nothing, death is nothingness. It is common, so enjoy things now. And even if primitives would have been so grief-stricken at the death of their relatives that they imagined a hereafter, God would not have been the resultant theoretical construct. At least, there would be no evidence for this.

Isn't it unfair that some evil people have good lives, and good people have bad lives? God will be Judge after death.

9. See #4. In any case, this does not require a concept of God(s). Karma is good enough. A lightning strike or a bad trip.

What is the mind and where does it come from? It is a magical soul from God.

10. Again, looking too far ahead. The mind just "is" for primitives.

What are these amazing coincidence? God's providence, or answer to prayer.

11. Again, the "isness" of the universe. Primitives have nothing to compare coincidences to. The world is a topsy-turvy place, so why should God explain anything? If good happens, good happened and that is what matters!

And so on, and so forth. God is the easy and comforting answer.

Except, interestingly, God is largely irrelevant to answering all the 11 questions that you gave me. At least, for primitive savages. So, where did these Gods really come from?

Well I don't personally have evidence, but people do look into such things. God could be real, and it would be good if He was, but I doubt it.
Can you explain why you think this?

Because the other set of reasons trying to explain away their existence is entirely lacking. Thus, the evidence, by default, lands on the side of Gods being real and having revealed themselves in the past.
 
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WonderBeat

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I think there is plenty of evidence that which I would call God or Gods don’t exist. The fact that they seem so hidden and undetectable, the fact that those who do claim to detect them cannot agree on what it is that they are detecting (which causes me to doubt their claims), of all the God claims I’ve heard; none of them seem to make any sense; those are a few of many reason I don’t believe.

Ken

Let's say an extinct creature for which we have no data existed in the past. There are no fossils for it. But one surely did exist, because the fossil record is incomplete. We may disagree and have conflicting claims about its place in the evolutionary scale of things. But it did exist. Just so, people have made claims of God, that they revealed themselves to us in the past. They have competing claims because, in the course of history the records have been distorted due to the corruption of the Age. And yet, still something concrete surfaces. What makes no sense to you or I may have made much more sense to older, enlightened beings.
 
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WonderBeat

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The absence of evidence to the contrary.

None is required. The burden of evidence is on the one positing the existence of 'gods', whatever they mean by that word.

Guess what: the evidence for Gods existing is on my side now. Please refer to my other post for a comprehensive, point-by-point refutation of the skeptical "answers".

What do you mean 'real'? Gods are characters in books. Myths. Do you need evidence for that?

Loaded assumption.

What evidence do you base that on?

My primary evidence is the lack of evidence for the side that calls them a myth.

Such as? Something testable, replicable, demonstrable?

In the Kalyug Era that is not possible.

So you, in effect, are trying to push the burden of evidence on to the non-believer, asking them to prove a negative?

Please prove to me that Gods don't exist given the fact it is more plausible to assume that they do.

"Prove that my god is just a myth!"

lol.

Your laughter is covering up the basic insecurity that you can't.

Then have that child get an account here and post their opinion for themselves. It still will not be evidence for these gods that you posit.

Do you have children in your life? I do. They study gods as myths in school. Like myself, they have never thought of them as anything other than myth.

Indoctrination is a helluvah drug.
 
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WonderBeat

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You are the positive claimant. The burden of proof is yours. Own up to it.

Please do not ignore the rest of my posts. I have already given you a case in which it is more plausible to assume the existence of Gods. Own up to refuting it.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Please do not ignore the rest of my posts. I have already given you a case in which it is more plausible to assume the existence of Gods.

There is not a single point of data in anything you said. Just a pile of naked assertions and logical fallacies.
 
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Davian

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Guess what: the evidence for Gods existing is on my side now. Please refer to my other post for a comprehensive, point-by-point refutation of the skeptical "answers".
I saw your points. Nothing of significance.
Loaded assumption.
Are not your gods characters in books?
My primary evidence is the lack of evidence for the side that calls them a myth.
Asking others to prove a negative is a sign of desperation. Have you no evidence of note?
In the Kalyug Era that is not possible.
Then it is dismissed as fiction, until you have something of scientific significance.
Please prove to me that Gods don't exist given the fact it is more plausible to assume that they do.
How susceptible humans are to religious beliefs has no bearing on their validity.

Evolutionary psychology of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Your laughter is covering up the basic insecurity that you can't.
Prove a negative? I think it is intellectually dishonest of you to ask me even to try.

"Prove to me that the earth is not covered in a layer of invisible immaterial giant marshmallows. I hate driving through those things on my way to work."
Indoctrination is a helluvah drug.
Imagine if it were stopped altogether. Religion could be gone in a generation.
 
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WonderBeat

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I saw your points. Nothing of significance.

Then you are not interested in substantive debate.

Are not your gods characters in books?

Sure. They're also real.

Asking others to prove a negative is a sign of desperation. Have you no evidence of note?

But I am not asking you to prove a negative! I am asking you to account for the lack of data substantiating the THESIS that Gods are "made up" or "mythical." Why should I take them to be?

Then it is dismissed as fiction, until you have something of scientific significance.

What if it can't be dismissed as fiction? Or there are too many difficulties inherent in dismissing it as fiction? Did you even read over anything I said in that post?

How susceptible humans are to religious beliefs has no bearing on their validity.

Evolutionary psychology of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's nice. Next time will you engage me in actual debate instead of hyperlinking? Now that to me is a sign of desperation! ;)

Prove a negative? I think it is intellectually dishonest of you to ask me even to try.

Good thing I'm not.

"Prove to me that the earth is not covered in a layer of invisible immaterial giant marshmallows. I hate driving through those things on my way to work."

Because there is no implausibility involved in believing this assertion to be rubbish!

Imagine if it were stopped altogether. Religion could be gone in a generation.

Religion is eternal.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Davian

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Then you are not interested in substantive debate.
In the first paragraph of your OP you used the word 'fact' to refer to something that is not 'fact'.

It would appear that you are not interested in substantive debate. You are just making more assertions.
Sure. They're also real.
There is the claim that you will need to substantiate, or retract.
But I am not asking you to prove a negative!
Yes, you are.
I am asking you to account for the lack of data substantiating the THESIS that Gods are "made up" or "mythical." Why should I take them to be?
That is not my thesis.
What if it can't be dismissed as fiction? Or there are too many difficulties inherent in dismissing it as fiction? Did you even read over anything I said in that post?
Yes. You presuppose the existence of deities. Or a deity. I get it.
That's nice. Next time will you engage me in actual debate instead of hyperlinking? Now that to me is a sign of desperation! ;)
I made my point, and added the supporting link. Do you not accept the scientific theory of evolution?
Good thing I'm not.
Yes, you are.
Because there is no implausibility involved in believing this assertion to be rubbish!
What evidence do you have for the Earth not being covered with invisible immaterial giant marshmallows?
Religion is eternal.
Another throwaway claim. It would appear that you are not interested in substantive debate.
 
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WonderBeat

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Demonstrable information.

Which I have presented by exposing the demonstrably logical shortcomings of holding to a position in which the Gods are rendered "myths".

Simply decreeing something by fiat does not count.

Where have I done that? I've exposed, through logical argumentation, why the explanation for Gods coming to be called myths are unsubstantial. Are you willing to converse with me about this evidence? If not, then please stop making accusations that I'm "decreeing" something a certain way.

They are bereft of evidential support.

How is common sense not evidential support? How is exposing logical shortcomings not evidential proof that a position is thoroughly lacking?

Shifting the burden of proof is your biggest and most flagrant fallacy. Deal with that first, then you can move on to fixing the numerous others you've committed.

Look at it this way: let's say that nothing about the official 9/11 story makes sense. Do you say we need a new investigation, or do you say that it is an irrefutable fact that terrorists with boxcutters were responsible, even though the facts don't line up? I am presenting to you an alternative that is more plausible, because the other scenario just doesn't add up. Take it or leave it. But please, try and be a little civil and actually engage with the problems I have already raised.
 
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WonderBeat

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In the first paragraph of your OP you used the word 'fact' to refer to something that is not 'fact'.

I was referring to a hypothetical of something I happen to believe is true.
You have the free will to take it or leave it.

It would appear that you are not interested in substantive debate. You are just making more assertions.

I am still waiting for you to engage with the comments I made which make for a cumulative case that the default position that the Gods are myths is baloney. You don't seem to care. Thus, it is arguable whether you care about the actual truth of the matter.

There is the claim that you will need to substantiate, or retract.

I already have substantiated the claim, by my response to Paradoxum and my utter demolishment of the opposition's claims of "myths."

Yes, you are.

Nope. I am asking you to assess which position is better.

That is not my thesis.

So you admit my position is the best one? Thank you.

Yes. You presuppose the existence of deities. Or a deity. I get it.

And what is your response given that the view that the Gods are myths doesn't hold water?

I made my point, and added the supporting link. Do you not accept the scientific theory of evolution?

I have no issue with evolution. I did not find your point substantial or well-argued. Could you please elaborate and tell me what context you are coming from?

Yes, you are.

I am asking you to assess which position is better: that Gods are real, or they are myths. If the latter doesn't hold up, is there a third option?

What evidence do you have for the Earth not being covered with invisible immaterial giant marshmallows?

This example is simply not applicable because I'm not asking you to prove a negative.

Another throwaway claim. It would appear that you are not interested in substantive debate.

Oh I am. That is simply one proposition which I take to be true.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Which I have presented by exposing the demonstrably logical shortcomings of holding to a position in which the Gods are rendered "myths".

What you are engaging in is not logic of any stripe.

Where have I done that? I've exposed, through logical argumentation, why the explanation for Gods coming to be called myths are unsubstantial.

No you haven't. You've merely asserted what you believe to be the case. Your 'arguments', such as they are, have zero substance to them.

I dare you to lay out your arguments with concise premises and a conclusion. We'll see just how logically sound they really are.

How is common sense not evidential support?

Nothing you've said here is 'common sense'.

Even if it were, 'common sense' is not in indication of truth. 'Common sense' tells you that the world is flat, because it looks that way from a personal perspective.

Look at it this way: let's say that nothing about the official 9/11 story makes sense.

Let's say I have zero interest in being drawn into a tangent on BS conspiracy theories.

Let's say, instead, that you own up to your burden of proof.
 
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WonderBeat

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What you are engaging in is not logic of any stripe.

I believe it is eminently logical.

No you haven't. You've merely asserted what you believe to be the case. Your 'arguments', such as they are, have zero substance to them.

We all assert what we believe to be the case - from observing the world and coming to various conclusions based on given premises. The premises grounded in typical explanations for the Gods coming into existence does not appear sound to me. Thus, it is arguable that they are false. Do not be so arrogant as to assume you don't engage in this type of reasoning yourself on a day-to-day basis.

I dare you to lay out your arguments with concise premises and a conclusion. We'll see just how logically sound they really are.

That would take a while and to be honest I am not very skilled at laying out precise syllogisms. However, when a given premise or line of thought is questionable (and it is not immune from questioning) then I try and take it to its logical conclusion. I invite you to do the same with me.

Nothing you've said here is 'common sense'.

Naked assertion.

Even if it were, 'common sense' is not in indication of truth. 'Common sense' tells you that the world is flat, because it looks that way from a personal perspective.

Yes, but if you have more than one angle you can still see that the WHOLE of the matter is rooted in common sense. What angles of vision am I missing exactly?

Let's say I have zero interest in being drawn into a tangent on BS conspiracy theories.

Naked Assertion. (BTW, I only meant it as an example, not to "Draw you in.")

Let's say, instead, that you own up to your burden of proof.

Nope. I have already made my case. The burden is shifted onto you pal. My assessment has rendered your position unviable unless you have an adequate response. The law of excluded middle states that there cannot be a third option here: either the Gods are real or they are myths. I have poked holes into the myth side. You thus, in order to defend your position, must either come up with something to prove that my analysis is wrong, or give in and state that I'm right.

Sorry.
 
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Mr. Pedantic

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What say you people about the origin of the gods? Are they only myths? If so, how are they only myths? What is your evidence? If that evidence is lacking, internally inconsistent, or otherwise implausible, how willing are you to accept that the gods are in fact real?
The default logical and intellectual position is that they do not exist unless shown otherwise.
 
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