Those unions watching out for their workers...

[Thekla]

So during a crisis it's acceptable to violate the law and cheat people? I never knew that.

Do you think that it's okay for Hostess to cheat its employees ?

(I'm not aware that the bailout was a violation of law, and cheating.
Hostess certainly lied, or at the very least did not carry through on the promised upgrades that were to be done w/ loans and money saved from employee paycuts and lay-offs.)

 

[MachZer0]

Do you think that it's okay for Hostess to cheat its employees ?

I'm not aware that any employees were cheated.

(I'm not aware that the bailout was a violation of law, and cheating.
Hostess certainly lied, or at the very least did not carry through on the promised upgrades that were to be done w/ loans and money saved from employee paycuts and lay-offs.)

When you're a secured creditor and you get bumped to a position lower than others, it's a violation of the law.

 

[Thekla]

I'm not aware that any employees were cheated.

It's been mentioned in articles linked in the thread.

When you're a secured creditor and you get bumped to a position lower than others, it's a violation of the law.

I'm not up on this, tbh. Otoh, I would think that would depend on the reorganization agreement.

 

[MachZer0]

It's been mentioned in articles linked in the thread.

What's been mentioned are things that some people don't like. If employees are actually cheated, they have legal recourse and that doesn't seem to be in the works

 

[Thekla]

What's been mentioned are things that some people don't like. If employees are actually cheated, they have legal recourse and that doesn't seem to be in the works

The company didn't keep its word.

Bankruptcy, depending on the process, means they won't have to keep their word.

But it's not unlikely that if they had made good on their commitments (the infrastructure upgrades that were to be funded by loans, lay-offs, pay-cuts), they wouldn't be in the situation they are now.

 

[kiwimac]

Ah but it is ALL the fault of those darn unions! How dare workers band together and subvert the natural order of dominance by the wealthy!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Ah but it is ALL the fault of those darn unions! How dare workers band together and subvert the natural order of dominance by the wealthy!

Remember this principle: When things are going well, take credit for them. When things are going badly, socialise the blame. Privatise profits, socialise costs.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The company didn't keep its word.

Bankruptcy, depending on the process, means they won't have to keep their word.

But it's not unlikely that if they had made good on their commitments (the infrastructure upgrades that were to be funded by loans, lay-offs, pay-cuts), they wouldn't be in the situation they are now.

Everything has a price...

 

[Thekla]

Everything has a price...

"THE DISPOSITION TO ADMIRE AND ALMOST WORSHIP THE RICH AND THE POWERFUL IS THE GREAT AND MOST UNIVERSAL CAUSE OF THE CORRUPTION OF OUR MORAL SENTIMENTS." ADAM SMITH

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"THE DISPOSITION TO ADMIRE AND ALMOST WORSHIP THE RICH AND THE POWERFUL IS THE GREAT AND MOST UNIVERSAL CAUSE OF THE CORRUPTION OF OUR MORAL SENTIMENTS." ADAM SMITH

Gotta love Smith for the many ways he said things way ahead of his time - and in addition to that, I'd also add his sentiments on are also things forgotten in the name of "capitalism" today (radically different in many respects from what he envisioned).

 

[Thekla]

Gotta love Smith for the many ways he said things way ahead of his time - and in addition to that, I'd also add his sentiments on are also things forgotten in the name of "capitalism" today (radically different in many respects from what he envisioned).

It seems so -- I've read that the neglect of his work on morals has led to a lop-sided view of his more well known work (Wealth of Nations).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It seems so -- I've read that the neglect of his work on morals has led to a lop-sided view of his more well known work (Wealth of Nations).

Yep -and that work NEVER advocated that governments should never be involved in the market or do regulations. Folks do not address works such as "The Hesitant Hand: Taming Self-Interest", which discusses Smith's views when it comes to self-preservation and the realities of how Smith was not necessarily for government intervention to the extreme while also examining the reality of how government does have a role in coming in to lessen the bad results done by self-interested behavior. Others often choose to ignore that in the "The Wealth of Nations" and Smith's views on "The Invisible Hand", he felt that interference of government in business and economic affairs should be minimal and made clear that unrestrained greed is in no way beneficial to a nation--though his principles were taken out of context/used wrongly by others.

Many rarely seem aware of how (in speaking of government duty ) Adam Smith said, "erecting and maintaining those public institutions and those public works which may be in the highest degree advantageous to a great society." & "are of such a nature that the profit could never repay the expense to any individual or small number of individuals." Adam Smith recognized certain industries do not have nature which a market is the best way of allocating the resources. Thus, he indicated that there are places other than property rights and national protection for a government to be involved.

 

[MachZer0]

Everything has a price...

The price of refusing to work while your employer isin bankruptcy appears to be unemployment

 

[TeddyReceptus]

The price of refusing to work while your employer isin bankruptcy appears to be unemployment

Thankfully management got themselves some big raises before the doors had to close then, eh?

Yeah, the Union folks are simply too stupid to know that when you see the train a'comin' you line your pockets as fast as possible!

(I wonder who would know more about the general welfare of a company and it's "prognosis"...management or line workers? Hmmmm, it's a mystery for the ages! Too bad Union workers are too dumb. Guess they lose!)

SURVIVAL OF THE RICHEST!

 

[Thekla]

The price of refusing to work while your employer isin bankruptcy appears to be unemployment

The price of mismanaging your business, running it into the ground sure is.

I still don't know why, given the years of demonstrated incompetence of mgmt, anyone thinks these people would have jobs anyway ...

 

[TeddyReceptus]

Nov 29, 11:16 AM EST


Hostess seeks approval for executive bonuses

NEW YORK (AP) -- Hostess Brands Inc. is asking for a judge's approval to give its top executives bonuses totaling up to $1.8 million as part of its wind-down plans.
The maker of Twinkies, Ding Dongs and Ho Hos says the incentive pay is needed to retain the 19 corporate officers and "high-level managers" during the liquidation process, which could take about a year. Two of those executives would be eligible for additional rewards depending on how efficiently they carry out the liquidation. The bonuses would be in addition to their regular pay.(SOURCE)

Wow. Just....wow.

Those unions! They sure cleaned out the company...with the exception of the MILLIONS OF DOLLARS STILL AVAILABLE FOR EXECUTIVE BONUSES!

Does anyone wish to question why the Unions might have been uneasy dealing with these people?

 

[MachZer0]

Nov 29, 11:16 AM EST


Hostess seeks approval for executive bonuses


Wow. Just....wow.

Those unions! They sure cleaned out the company...with the exception of the MILLIONS OF DOLLARS STILL AVAILABLE FOR EXECUTIVE BONUSES!

Does anyone wish to question why the Unions might have been uneasy dealing with these people?

The executives are still working. The union (non)workers are not. Giving executives incentive to stay on board through the liquidation process only makes sense

 

[TeddyReceptus]

The executives are still working.

Working to shut down a company they oversaw into bankruptcy. The most important word there is BONUSES.

So let's say a bunch of people are all responsible in some way for the bankruptcy for a company. How do you think THOSE PEOPLE should be rewarded to clean up the mess they were in part responsible for?

The union (non)workers are not.

Proving yet again: the executives have no "skin in the game". It's win-win for them no matter what happens.

Giving executives incentive to stay on board through the liquidation process only makes sense

LOL! That's funny.

If only someone could have controlled the company as it dove into bankruptcy not once but twice! If only someone had been in control!

The poor, poor executives were powerless except to give themselves raises as the ship was sinking. And now they need to be "incentivized" to stay on and close up the shops.

I almost feel sorry for them! There doesn't appear to be enough money in the world for them!

Someone! Start a charity for these execs!

 

[Thekla]

Not surprising, about 100 potential buyers now reported; for employees of Hostess, this is encouraging. Maybe they can be employed by a real business, instead of a trainwreck-team.

On the bonuses, op piece in Forbes:

Why Should Hostess Executives Get The Bonuses They're Demanding? - Forbes

On general matters:
http://deadlyclear.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/wall-street-killed-twinkies-not-the-unions/

 

[whatbogsends]

The executives are still working. The union (non)workers are not. Giving executives incentive to stay on board through the liquidation process only makes sense

It definitely makes sense to give a reward to the people who managed the company into bankruptcy, after all, they're management. I mean, who wouldn't want to reward that kind of performance?

Pay cuts for the workers, increased bonuses for management. It's the American way!