Those unions watching out for their workers...

[MachZer0]

Only if they are paid a working wage otherwise only the management benefits from their work.

Management benefits from their own work.

 

[MachZer0]

The reality is that business is a symbiotic relationship between management and labor. Each benefits from their own work as well as that of the other. Those providing the most valuable service of course receive the higher wage

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The reality is that business is a symbiotic relationship between management and labor. Each benefits from their own work as well as that of the other. Those providing the most valuable service of course receive the higher wage

I'm sure people would be shocked and horrified to know that I receive bonuses based on how the people I manage perform and how they do on sales figures. My people do most of the hardest work selling on the floor while I tend to push paper around and make sure my shelves are stocked, counts are right, safety policies are being followed, etc. But if my department makes their sales goals, I get a profit sharing check. So do my employees, but mine is more.

Horrible, isn't it?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We seem to be returning to this sort of thing ...

(Though not entirely related, there was an interesting study by historian John Demos that found a correlation between the Industrial Revolution and increasing incidents of child abuse; the study is found in this book Past, Present, and Personal: The Family and the Life Course in American History: John Putnam Demos: 9780195047660: Amazon.com: Books)

Wow. That's really interesting and I'll definately have to check out that specific work. Thanks for bringing it up. One of the believers I've kept up with actually noted similar realities that others don't realize they support whenever they talk/focus solely on jobs others need to work and yet don't consider the full ramifications of the jobs others are given/what kind of society is being created. To see what was said, one can go here:

• A disturbing story about laissez faire capitalism | OrthoCubanjavascript:void(0)

Would love to see your take on what the man noted...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Only if they are paid a working wage otherwise only the management benefits from their work.

Indeed. More on that subject was actually discussed elsewhere in-depth on the subject of living wages and fairness in the work place..especially for migrant workers who are often taken advantage of ( more shared here in #65, #67, #73, #79 #81, #84#94 , #102 , #105 , #109, #112 #117, #145 )...

 

[TLK Valentine]

The reality is that business is a symbiotic relationship between management and labor. Each benefits from their own work as well as that of the other.

And when one screws up, the other one is expected to pay for it.

Those providing the most valuable service of course receive the higher wage

Funny -- 30% of the labor stopped, and the whole company went down the drain. Dollars to donuts we could've cut 30% of management and not seen a problem.

So, which service was more valuable to the company?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We seem to be returning to this sort of thing ...

(Though not entirely related, there was an interesting study by historian John Demos that found a correlation between the Industrial Revolution and increasing incidents of child abuse; the study is found in this book Past, Present, and Personal: The Family and the Life Course in American History: John Putnam Demos: 9780195047660: Amazon.com: Books)

In many ways, we already have much of the same dynamics of what the Industrial Revolution demonstrated - except it's the case that it's the everyday consumer who is doing the same thing that the extremely wealthy industrialists did when it came to cheap labour being used to get the goods we enjoy and throwing a fit when others making those goods for us at their expense complain on it - or choose to threaten with not doing those jobs (even if it may cost them). And this happens in a myriad of ways - be it with the clothes we use or the foods we enjoy everyday or the electronic material we love to buy up quickly and throw away just as quickly without even realizing where that goes and what people are forced to deal with it in the name of "It's just good business" (as discussed here before in #55 ).

And it's definately something that needs to be considered...especially in light of the Holidays coming up (as well as the aftermath of Black Friday).

As said elsewhere, one excellent film on the issue is What Would Jesus Buy? - an a excellent examination of the commercialization of Christmas in America while following Reverend Billy and the Church of Stop Shopping Gospel Choir on a cross-country mission to save Christmas from the Shopocalypse (the end of humankind from consumerism, over-consumption and the fires of eternal debt ) ..with the film wisely delving into into issues such as the role sweatshops play in America’s mass consumerism and Big-Box Culture

There are other excellent documentaries addressing the same issues..such as the documentary entitled "Santa's Workshop - Inside China's Slave Labour Toy Factories "

Santa's Workshop - Inside China's Slave Labour Toy Factories ​

January sales began end of November in a number of countries. Most major firms get their new products out in time for Christmas.

A lot of those jobs in China, Taiwan etc would be lost and those folk would be destroyed, as far as income goes if folks weren't so consumeristic in our country - and that's where the irony lies on multiple points....in light of the conditions many of those people have to work in and how inhumane they are, as many human-rights activists and social justice organizations have noted, losing those jobs would not be detrimental since those jobs are given in light of nothing else being made available. It's similar to what occurs with child slavery (With children making chochcolate or blood diamonds) or children working in sweatshops and doing so to provide for their own...as that would be uncessary if others around the world would actually pull together to make different economies.

It's interesting to see how the National Labor Committee (NLC) has released a report on sweatshop conditions in China which pinpoints holiday items being made at Guangzhou Huanya Gift Ltd. Company for Wal-Mart, as well as for other U.S. companies, including Christmas House and Gerson Co. European clients of the factory include Christmas Elements (England), Santini Christmas (Italy), Miro (Spain), and Kugelkette (Germany). NLC director Charles Kernaghan released "A Wal-Mart Christmas Brought to You from a Sweatshop in China" in the shadow of the Christmas tree towering over Rockefeller Center in New York City. "Far from kindling the holiday spirit, the conditions under which the mostly young women workers in China produce goods for Wal-Mart are dehumanizing," the report said. Democratic Senator Byron Dorgan of North Dakota is now calling for trade regulation of items produced under improper work conditions. "There is nothing in the law that prohibits against imports of products made from sweatshop labor, and I think that needs to change," Dorgan said at a press conference. Dorgan added, "Chinese sweatshops now produce not only the toys under our Christmas trees, but even the ornaments that hang on those trees. It is completely against the spirit of Christmas to produce ornaments in sweatshop factories where the workers are physically abused and financially cheated. We need to get serious about keeping the products of foreign sweatshops off American shelves." Wal-Mart's spokesperson, Richard Coyle, stated that "As soon as Wal-Mart learned about the Christmas tree ornament report, we contacted the National Labor Committee and they have not returned our call. Now that we have a copy of their report, we have launched an immediate investigation."

As it stands, Wal-Mart is the world's largest retailer and the world's second-largest corporation in revenue, behind ExxonMobil...and to see them involved in such is significant. For more, go to Wal-Mart's Sweatshop-Made Christmas Lights Are Illuminated ...

Many buisnesses are seeking to address the issue of erasing the need of consumerism---with those same people producing cheap goods in terrible conditions even FLEEING those areas to find better work/life elsewhere---it cannot be ignored as if it's a matter of them NEEDINg to have crappy jobs. As said before, trying to advocate such is the exact same ideology and sentiment that others said when trying to say "We need to keep slavery going, or else the slaves themselves won't have work"--even though the real issue was being narrow-minded in not having enough vision to be creative in tough times and make a market.

Just as children in sweat shop factories don't have to get involved when people advocate/jump in and just as children don't have to be killed for blood diamonds just because it makes a few bucks while we profit off of it, so it is the same with Christmas and Black Friday

Within the U.S, it has already been considered by many that Christmas needs to seriously be banned when seeing many of the explotation endeavors occurring---and for more, one can go to and investivage the work of "Buy Nothing Christmas.org"-- one of several online movements that have shined a spotlight on people who -- for philosophical, economic or religious reasons -- are doing something radical this holiday season: saying no to gift buying. Buy Nothing Christmas first became official in 2001..and for more, go online to places such as Buy Nothing Christmas Articles - DailyFinance.com and A "Buy Nothing Christmas" Can Save Money, Refresh The Holiday Spirit-THe Consumerist.

Making others do Cheap Labor for things we enjoy and then blaming them for not enjoying it or complaining on it isn't a just practice.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And when one screws up, the other one is expected to pay for it.

Someone has to pay for it...

 

[TLK Valentine]

Someone has to pay for it...

Funny how the same people who scream about having to pay for someone else's healthcare don't bat an eye when they demand out the other side of their mouths that working men and women pay for management's incompetence.

 

[Redac]

Hey man, those Chinese kids should just be thankful someone even gave them work. Right? They've got a job, what else do they want?

 

[kermit]

Management benefits from their own work.

I suggest you learn the difference between profit centers and cost centers. Management is is a cost center while production is a profit center.

Now cost centers are needed to support the profit center, but they don't actually ever make money for the company. The best a cost center can hope for to benefit the company's bottom line is to cut costs.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hey man, those Chinese kids should just be thankful someone even gave them work. Right? They've got a job, what else do they want?

Sad..but that's indeed the way many see it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Funny how the same people who scream about having to pay for someone else's healthcare don't bat an eye when they demand out the other side of their mouths that working men and women pay for management's incompetence.

Good observation, as I hadn't considered it from that angle before when it comes to the workers often being the ones to make up for what the CEOs often mess up on - and other times, things done by others on the top involve taking from the workers for their own benefit (like paying for an exhorbiant vaction during times of changing wages for folks below and then saying "Sorry - but we don't have the proper funds - but lets all work together!" ...or similar to what happened in the film "Shawshank Redeemption" where the Warden begins exploiting prison labor for public works, profiting by undercutting skilled labor costs and receiving kickbacks ...very much like it is today when privatized prisons use prison labor for cheap work - and have the benefit of no unions being able to be developed since prisoners are seen as having no rights whatsoever to protest and people are involved in it such as Walmart and ALEC since billions are often made behind bars ..especially from migrants placed in jail - as discussed elsewhere in #102 / #108 ).

Prisoners: America's New Cheap Labor (ALEC Exposed)​

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Generally speaking, CEO's are better off financially than bakers, truck drivers, etc.

Except that bakers, truck drivers, etc. are not rewarded for their failure with huge bonuses and a last-minute rise during the company's bankruptcy.
Unlike managers, who can look forward to not having to bear the consequences of their company's collapse, financially or otherwise.

 

[FreeSpirit74]

I'm sure people would be shocked and horrified to know that I receive bonuses based on how the people I manage perform and how they do on sales figures. My people do most of the hardest work selling on the floor while I tend to push paper around and make sure my shelves are stocked, counts are right, safety policies are being followed, etc. But if my department makes their sales goals, I get a profit sharing check. So do my employees, but mine is more.

Horrible, isn't it?

It's only horrible if you lack the ability and knowledge to jump right in there with them and do the jobs that they do. I have no respect for supervisors who are unable to do the work required of the people they supervise. One thing I like about the company I work for is that the managers are right in there pitching with the rest of the people in their departments. They don't get to just sit at their desks (our Maintenance manager doesn't even have a desk that I know of!) all day - our Sales manager is 2nd in command to the owner/president, but he's also busy taking sales calls/email and is usually in the top 3 for commission at the end of the month. Our Purchasing manager does the bulk of the steel buying, PLUS is responsible for the apartment house the company owns, PLUS the phone system and other utilities.

 

[SharonL]

You are rewarded for management skills. Not because you are a manager.If they were not being managed there would be no profits - such as our government - no management skills whatsoever.

All they are concentrating on right now is 'overload the system.' - Adding 18,000 more to the unemployment rolls and putting on their website for illegals on how to get unemployment and benefits adds to the 'overload the system.'

The liberals needs to read the Alinsky manual and compare it to what is happening now instead of attacking those of us that has read the manual and see what is coming.

 

[Thekla]

Wow. That's really interesting and I'll definately have to check out that specific work. Thanks for bringing it up. One of the believers I've kept up with actually noted similar realities that others don't realize they support whenever they talk/focus solely on jobs others need to work and yet don't consider the full ramifications of the jobs others are given/what kind of society is being created. To see what was said, one can go here:

• A disturbing story about laissez faire capitalism | OrthoCubanjavascript:void(0)

Would love to see your take on what the man noted...

This points to the crux of the issue - what do our standards, what we accept or promote, say about our beliefs ? I agree with his observation that neither US Party is pro-life (and even the 3rd parties fail on this from what I know).

Is our economic culture "pro-life" - and if the matter is considered beyond the issue of abortion, extended from the fact to the span of life, it becomes clearer that our economic culture has a different priority. A priority that does not include the fundamental preciousness of human persons.

In this discussion what are the core values, the priorities, of each side ?

Per this issue companies "speak" their priorities, their values, in dollars.
Just as our purchases become value-votes, when maximizing profit is the goal and measure of value, payscale is a value-vote.

In the case of Hostess, their value-voting had the effect of prioritizing short-term return over long-term existence (the failure to upgrade infrastructure with the money saved through lower wages and the additional burden of loans after emerging from bankruptcy).

Or to put it another way, the in-operation expression of value was pretty clear.

As the restructuring plans guaranteed plant closings (and long-term mismanagement indicated that the company's survival was unlikely anyway), I don't understand how the Union/s bear the brunt of the popular blame.

 

[Thekla]

It's only horrible if you lack the ability and knowledge to jump right in there with them and do the jobs that they do. I have no respect for supervisors who are unable to do the work required of the people they supervise. One thing I like about the company I work for is that the managers are right in there pitching with the rest of the people in their departments. They don't get to just sit at their desks (our Maintenance manager doesn't even have a desk that I know of!) all day - our Sales manager is 2nd in command to the owner/president, but he's also busy taking sales calls/email and is usually in the top 3 for commission at the end of the month. Our Purchasing manager does the bulk of the steel buying, PLUS is responsible for the apartment house the company owns, PLUS the phone system and other utilities.

I agree with you.

Looking managerial is not the same as managing (I've seen a lot of the former).

Managers who understand and work the jobs of lower scale employees are far more valuable, and actually help create a positive work environment.

 

[[serious]]

I'm sure people would be shocked and horrified to know that I receive bonuses based on how the people I manage perform and how they do on sales figures. My people do most of the hardest work selling on the floor while I tend to push paper around and make sure my shelves are stocked, counts are right, safety policies are being followed, etc. But if my department makes their sales goals, I get a profit sharing check. So do my employees, but mine is more.

Horrible, isn't it?

The difference between you and hostess is bolded.

People aren't objecting to rewarding success, they are objecting to rewarding abject failure. Let's say your sales staff wasn't doing well. Let's say your store was doing so poorly they may have to shut it down. At that point, giving the failed manager a bonus for being terrible at their job would be crazy.

 

[MachZer0]

And when one screws up, the other one is expected to pay for it.



Funny -- 30% of the labor stopped, and the whole company went down the drain. Dollars to donuts we could've cut 30% of management and not seen a problem.

So, which service was more valuable to the company?

In this case one of the unions screwed up and all the employees paid for it.