Deconversion

[MorkandMindy]

...

But maybe once you've left Christianity and doubted and questioned so much, it's just not possible to have a faith in the future.

That's exactly what happened to me. I think the reason is that people are retained by a kind of blackmail that if they depart from a particular belief then they lack saving faith. It's a lock on beliefs and therefore on thoughts.

Once you've given up on being saved then you are free to ask some of the deeper questions about the faith. After a while I asked here on CF 'What is Christianity?' in a thread I guess that might be in General Apologetics which no longer exists.

I would never have asked that when I was a Christian because people would have said: 'well if you don't know that then you aren't truly saved'.

I had a question/doubt about something once, I mentioned it to another Christian and he replied: 'you'd better get praying'. You are saved by faith and if the faith is wrong then I'm not sure there is any salvation.

 

[koshka]

That's exactly what happened to me. I think the reason is that people are retained by a kind of blackmail that if they depart from a particular belief then they lack saving faith. It's a lock on beliefs and therefore on thoughts.

Once you've given up on being saved then you are free to ask some of the deeper questions about the faith. After a while I asked here on CF 'What is Christianity?' in a thread I guess that might be in General Apologetics which no longer exists.

I would never have asked that when I was a Christian because people would have said: 'well if you don't know that then you aren't truly saved'.

I had a question/doubt about something once, I mentioned it to another Christian and he replied: 'you'd better get praying'. You are saved by faith and if the faith is wrong then I'm not sure there is any salvation.

hi MorkandMindy, just read your reply and wasn't sure from it whether that meant you have gone back to Christianity or whether you are have stayed an 'unbeliever'??

 

[mathetes123]

2 Peter 2:18-22
For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

 

[MorkandMindy]

hi MorkandMindy, just read your reply and wasn't sure from it whether that meant you have gone back to Christianity or whether you are have stayed an 'unbeliever'??

I'd tried I think everything to remain a Christian over the course of 10 years.

I'd been to Roman Catholic services and lived for a while with an RC and read a few of the books he recommended. I'd attended a Baptist Church a number of times and liked it at first but it got repetitive after a while, a very community orientated Methodist and a smaller Methodist near the city centre.

I attended the local Anglican for 3 years and the Brethren in the mornings for 2 years - they meet at 10 AM for a service and 3 PM for Bible Study because originally they also went to the normal Anglican evening service, and often still do. And I went to the Free Evangelical when I could and a community charismatic church. That was the first 5 years.

I had my own quiet time each day which included prayer and reading a section from Search the Scriptures by IVP and went to the midweek Christian Union Bible study which was split equally between predestination and free will adherents and the previous year had been awful but was OK when I was there, and the midweek Brethren Bible Study and the Sunday 3 PM Bible Study.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I was told the problem was I was church-hopping so I selected an Evangelical Free (not Free Evangelical) church with a good missionary outreach and became a member and fairly heavily involved in that for 5 years. They had an early 8 AM service and a later 10 AM service which was a duplicate if I recall and a choice of led Bible Studies in between. I also went to a midweek Bible Study and eventually led one as well. And I was in the choir and self and wife helped provide meals for the social events, and we were in the Young Adults.

I found the problem with getting very involved with a good family church which happened to have a lot of professional and successful people, is that I eventually worked out that despite the Bible-based teaching and mid week Bible Studies and such, very few people read the Bible at any other time or evidently actually believed in God beyond the agnostic level. They would say the Bible was infallible and God given but read the newspaper instead. They were there to give their children a good upbringing in a drug-free environment.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I was busy reading the Bible trying to find out how I should live. 'God has a wonderful Plan for your life'. Some literature told me I would find it in the Bible, well, I never did.

I had a science degree and serious problems with Genesis, and got waved off in various ways but the problem stayed.

The minister was amazingly knowledgeable on the Bible, possibly the only one in the Church ahead of me and he was miles ahead. So I asked him about the Genesis Flood and he said he had no idea because he didn't know any science, but that there were two opinions; one that it was a local flood and the other that it was Global. Well neither works because it if was Global then the Antarctic Ice cap wouldn't have 900,000 something years of annual rings, the mummies wouldn't have stayed dry, nor the ones in Chile, and so on. And I don't know who would spend 100 years making an Ark when he could just move 50 miles to escape the flooding of the Black Sea, nor what the point in it was when it wouldn't eliminate the rest of the human race of the nephilim or whatever.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I've searched since for anyway of getting back into Christianity but I've given it up as a lost cause. I didn't try every possible fragment of Christianity, left out the Orthodox Churches for example, and the Coptics, but now feel that if any part of Christianity had a genuine connection with the divine then we would know about it instead of them all (and that includes JWs) despite big differences in doctrine all evidently being pretty much the same.

Orthodox Churches think the hetrodox and not be saved. The Brethren I was with thought the Roman Catholics were friends of Satan. I liked them all as people but I couldn't see truth in any of them.


Go back? I would like to, but I can't believe it because I have yet to see Christianity actually work or even get a clear idea of what it actually is. So I'll visit again when I have time (I have the children and a full homework schedule every weekend, and work every week) so that means the only time I have free which is Christmas from when work ends around 3 PM and Christmas Day until I collect the children.

So I always go to two Church services, both by the most wonderful minister I've ever met.

I love it but I can't believe it.

 

[koshka]

I've searched since for anyway of getting back into Christianity but I've given it up as a lost cause. I didn't try every possible fragment of Christianity, left out the Orthodox Churches for example, and the Coptics, but now feel that if any part of Christianity had a genuine connection with the divine then we would know about it instead of them all (and that includes JWs) despite big differences in doctrine all evidently being pretty much the same.

Orthodox Churches think the hetrodox and not be saved. The Brethren I was with thought the Roman Catholics were friends of Satan. I liked them all as people but I couldn't see truth in any of them.


Go back? I would like to, but I can't believe it because I have yet to see Christianity actually work or even get a clear idea of what it actually is. So I'll visit again when I have time (I have the children and a full homework schedule every weekend, and work every week) so that means the only time I have free which is Christmas from when work ends around 3 PM and Christmas Day until I collect the children.

So I always go to two Church services, both by the most wonderful minister I've ever met.

I love it but I can't believe it.

Thanks very much for writing back MorkandMindy. Since 'falling away' I have been wondering about Christianity again, really just trying to understand more about what happened and to know where I go from here, and have spoken to other Christians who are of the opinion that as with God all things are possible, its conceivable that a person COULD come back. I must admit that I do miss somethings about it - the hope in a good, loving, forgiving, wise God (although I couldn't tell when he was answering my prayers), and the idea of being in a loving community. But I also got really troubled by some concepts too - like eternal punishment, and confusion around doctrinal issues.

I also went to a brethren congregation at one point - and there was the view in one book I read that speaking in tongues was demonic. (Prior to that I was at a revivalist church where speaking in tongues happened all the time). It was all really troubling when it could mean that you were under the influence of totally the wrong side!

Despite all of the above though, I can understand to some extent why you go to church at Christmas. I haven't ruled out going back for the odd visit or even to learn more - but it would probably be to a CofE church in future.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Well once you are standing on the outside you can choose whichever religion works best. I think a fair guide would be divorce rates. In the US for example murder rates go up a lot as you get into the Bible Belt but the counter argument is there are just a whole bunch more guns there.

So divorce rates seems a fair guide at the moment, and it is highest among Bible-believing Christians, lower among liberals and Catholics, lower still among Agnostics and Atheists but if you really want people who get on well you have to go to India. It is surprising how well they really do get along.

And again when it comes to surviving and forgiving, again the Protestant leader of the World, the USA, is still mad about 911, it was how many years ago? And how many times over Muslims has it killed in response?

Now compare non-Christian countries. Vietnam did nothing wrong, 4.5 million killed and as many lost sight or limbs. Many still are being born with deformities due to Agent Orange (dioxin mainly), and they have forgiven and almost forgotten.

It is pretty obvious where I will be looking.

But I still like the pagan festival of Christmas and I do like the old woman minister of the Baptist Church nearby; she is a gem as a person, not as a Christian.

 

[Robban]

That was a quick turn around M&M, Did you walk into a revolving door,

Glad you have not left.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Thanks for that compliment Robban, I actually meant just that thread as I seemed to be getting nowhere ...now if I go back and edit to clarify the post I'll be breaking my word...

I also had respect for the ability of the person disagreeing with me so I couldn't accuse him of being unreasonable and I thought I really shouldn't be in a thread advising someone about their friends so I thought it best to restate my point and exit.

As for CF, well it's a bit of a puzzler. There are good posters here such as yourself, Jane_the_bane, and a lot of others, I even like AV1611VET a lot, and there are people in some pretty puzzling difficult situations,

and there are people in serious need such as the suicidal people in Singles and in the Recovery sections, but I have been told that if I don't leave CF I won't be able to move on to a new life, that I'm just kicking over the remains of the past.

So I've compromised, something I never did as a Christian, and I'm having CF days and non CF days to see how it goes, and being more direct in my postings.

It's good to hear from you Robban, cheers Mork

 

[Robban]

Thanks for that compliment Robban, I actually meant just that thread as I seemed to be getting nowhere ...now if I go back and edit to clarify the post I'll be breaking my word...


As for CF, well it's a bit of a puzzler. There are good posters here such as yourself, Jane_the_bane, and a lot of others, I even like AV1611VET a lot, and there are people in some pretty puzzling difficult situations,

and there are people in serious need such as the suicidal people in Singles and in the Recovery sections, but I have been told that if I don't leave CF I won't be able to move on to a new life, that I'm just kicking over the remains of the past.

So I've compromised, something I never did as a Christian, and I'm having CF days and non CF days to see how it goes, and being more direct in my postings.

It's good to hear from you Robban, cheers Mork

I really thought you would not be back, I felt the hurt, it made me happy
to see you again.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I thought I'd share something relevant to deconversion. About 15 years after leaving the faith I eventually told the Christian I had the most contact (we were both hundreds of miles from the Church we had attended). It came as a shock to her, and she thought I must be now a friend of Satan etc. etc. etc.

And she thought I must hate all my previous friends at Church.

In fact the opposite had happened.

When I was at the church I had thought they failed to make good use of the gifts of God and so on. Now I recognise that they achieved everything themselves and that they had the additional disadvantage of trying to do things 'God's way'.

As my opinion of the religion went down my opinion of the people went up.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I had previous to becoming a Christian a traumatic event others could have easily prevented but I couldn't and God did exactly nothing in anyway to help with it the aftermath even though it was badly affecting my Christian life and testimony. He also failed to help with my problems in social interactions although I trusted and read the scripture a lot, I only found odd little gems in there but nothing that helped overall.

I went from finding God didn't help with the past or present to realising I had no reason to believe he would help in the future either. When that happened I lost my faith.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I lost my faith in Christianity earlier this year. I think it was due to a combination of things.

Mine was also a combination of things. Christianity is mainly about promises of things that are supposed to happen in the future (Revelation, rapture etc.) or claimed to have happened in the past (resurrection, Promised Land, Noah's Flood).

As well as promises for my own life failing to come true after 10 years, I could never find anyone who could explain how Noah's Flood worked in anyway at all. And I couldn't get a coherent idea of what God wanted me to do or what the scriptures were actually saying.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I lost my faith in Christianity earlier this year. I think it was due to a combination of things.

I had a mental illness and it kept being interpreted as at least partly demonic because it involved hearing voices. This was very scary to be told and I couldn't understand why God didn't take it away and I prayed endlessly about it and tried rebuking the voices etc but it kept going on (for years).

The division between simple memories related by our internal narrative and those memories being able to have a realistic-sounding narrative is pretty fine. In about half of cases people are OK with the voice(s) and many find them helpful or comforting. But in about a third of cases hearing voices has started after a traumatic event and then the focus should be not on the voices but on fixing the other damage caused by the event.

The way to deal with it is usually to either become good at meditation, or a quicker way would be Schema Therapy with eye movement desensitisation and reprocessing (EMDR).


That may sound totally crazy but it follows much the same principle as Buddhists and others have used successfully for thousands of years. But it EMDR is a lot quicker and more reliable because you don't have to learn it.


My understanding of it goes like this:

The brain is a trainable matrix of neurons where repeated use of pathways reinforces these pathways and also causes growth of new neurons in the areas most used giving further memory and processing power in those areas. And this gives the key: reinforcement of some pathways will change the way the brain works in those areas.

Until 20 or so years ago it was thought that because events very early in life cause the brain to grow neuron paths in particular ways that these led to incurable mental conditions, and events in the pre-verbal era had a long time to be reinforced and would also be permanent.

But it has since been found that the human brain has neuroplasticity and can even grow large numbers of new neurons and it is possible to totally change the emphasis in various areas that were inaccessible to reasoning alone.

I've found with people that the most superficial areas I can access just by talking to them are often enough to fix pretty major problems. Basically we live in a pretty crazy society and some of the problems can be fixed just by learning something and others require retraining the emotional parts of the brain.

 

[MorkandMindy]

oh, and some mental problems are purely due to the situation a person has been put into (read David Smail). Move a person who can't read from a familiar area to somewhere else, equipped with a map and you will soon see signs of distress (no pun).

And don't get too confused if one person has problems on all three or four levels: a totally unfamiliar environment, people who bully, a failure to understand what is happening, and basic emotional schema problems. They can chain together as the schema leads to lack of success in getting jobs leads to ending up in nasty jobs and so on.

 

[ianb321red]

Mine was also a combination of things. Christianity is mainly about promises of things that are supposed to happen in the future (Revelation, rapture etc.) or claimed to have happened in the past (resurrection, Promised Land, Noah's Flood).

The rapture is famously up for debate (at least whether it is pre or post trib) so I really would question anyone doubting their faith over this issue.

The resurrection is not up for debate though. What is the source of doubt here? Have you read Gary Habermas (for example) on this subject ?

As well as promises for my own life failing to come true after 10 years, I could never find anyone who could explain how Noah's Flood worked in anyway at all. And I couldn't get a coherent idea of what God wanted me to do or what the scriptures were actually saying.

I don't want to appear condescending here but on a scale of 1-10 where does understanding how the flood actually rank in terms of importance ?

There are a number of references in the NT which tell me that is a true event to be taken literally, but I personally don't have a need to understand the nitty gritty of "how it worked".

Same school of thought (for me) applies to creation - we're told as much as we need to know in Genesis. Jesus referred to it as a real event (i.e. Matthew 19:4, Luke 3:38) and that's really all we need to know..

 

[MorkandMindy]

The rapture is famously up for debate (at least whether it is pre or post trib) so I really would question anyone doubting their faith over this issue.

The resurrection is not up for debate though. What is the source of doubt here? Have you read Gary Habermas (for example) on this subject ?



I don't want to appear condescending here but on a scale of 1-10 where does understanding how the flood actually rank in terms of importance ?

There are a number of references in the NT which tell me that is a true event to be taken literally, but I personally don't have a need to understand the nitty gritty of "how it worked".

Same school of thought (for me) applies to creation - we're told as much as we need to know in Genesis. Jesus referred to it as a real event (i.e. Matthew 19:4, Luke 3:38) and that's really all we need to know..

At present there is still no convincing evidence that a historical Jesus actually existed so the debate about the resurrection is moot.

In contrast there is plenty of evidence for a John the Baptist character, if I recall he was the High Priest or head something.


The Flood ranks a 10 because it is the only big genetic bottleneck since the creation.

 

[ianb321red]

At present there is still no convincing evidence that a historical Jesus actually existed so the debate about the resurrection is moot.

Convincing is a subjective term, and besides what are your sources for arriving at this conclusion anyway?