Origins of sin

[NathanM26]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. I hope this post is in the right place. I did search for similar threads before posting but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I'll try to keep my question as brief as possible!

Basically, I certainly do consider myself a Christian, though ill admit my relationship with God is not great at the minute. Like lots of other people I have had lots of questions about God over the years, some of which I have found answers to at the time, and others that I have been happy to say 'I'll find out one day'.

However, one question keeps coming back to me, which I have not found an answer for. It concerns the origins of sin. I don't consider myself a theologian so please forgive any errors.

In simple terms: I believe God made EVERYTHING. HE is the creator, and nothing exists that has not been created by God. Logic follows then, that God created sin - does it not? And if not created sin, created in man the propensity to sin - though I look at those as one and the same.

I'm always a bit depressed when preachers and writers attempt to answer 'the big questions' and examine predestination and evolution etc again and again, when for me, the question I have mentioned is the elephant in the room of my faith - which is genuine I might add.


Any help on this, or pointing in the right direction, or straightening out of wonky theology is greatly appreciated (without theology-specific words I need to look up in a dictionary).

Thanks

N

 

[Tigger45]

No God did not create sin. God is absolute and total righteousness anything that falls outside of His character is sin. I hope that helps :{)

 

[NathanM26]

No God did not create sin. God is absolute and total righteousness anything that falls outside of His character is sin. I hope that helps :{)

Hi Tigger and thanks for the reply, but I'm afraid it doesn't help me

Saying 'God did not create sin' does not answer my question which relates to the origins of sin. If you say God did not create sin then where do you say sin came from? I do want to believe that God did not create sin, but if He did not, where did it come from? Some people say that we are born with a sinful desire - that it comes from within us - but we were created by God.

N

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

I believe in the fall. I don’t think that God ‘created’ sin, but God allowed sin to occur, as the inevitable consequence of creating the temporal universe. (free will).
In the beginning was the abyss, and God separated the light from the abyss. God did not say that the abyss is good; he didn’t say anything about the abyss. I think the Genesis account of the fall is sort of figurative, but there was a fall, and personally I think it might have been caused by the fallen cherub, in Eden, like it says. I see the abyss as the rubbish bin, the creation of a void, to eventually contain everything that is not of God, and the abyss is not of God, but presumably it will continue to exist? After the destruction of the universe?

 

[Tigger45]

When someone questions a simple truth it causes me to pause. My question to you is do you feel fully accountable for the sins you have commited? Are you dealing with something that you don't want to admit to? My sins are ugly all of our sins are. The Apostle Paul referred to himself as a wretched man. Can you do that? I don't like to either but the truth will set you free! The reason we don't want to look at our own sin is because of pride. Pride is the original sin. Lucifer wanted to be like unto God. He got thrown out of heaven taking a third of the angles with him. To usurp God's plan because of revenge. The devil {formally Lucifer} tempted Eve with the same sin. Take of this fruit and be like God. Again pride. Those choices are what we call free will. God gave the angles and man free will. The reason God gave free will is because God is love. God didn't want to create robots programmed to love Him because that is not love. Love has to be a choice in order for it to be true love.

Hi Tigger and thanks for the reply, but I'm afraid it doesn't help me

Saying 'God did not create sin' does not answer my question which relates to the origins of sin. If you say God did not create sin then where do you say sin came from? I do want to believe that God did not create sin, but if He did not, where did it come from? Some people say that we are born with a sinful desire - that it comes from within us - but we were created by God.

N

 

[Calminian]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. I hope this post is in the right place. I did search for similar threads before posting but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I'll try to keep my question as brief as possible!

Basically, I certainly do consider myself a Christian, though ill admit my relationship with God is not great at the minute. Like lots of other people I have had lots of questions about God over the years, some of which I have found answers to at the time, and others that I have been happy to say 'I'll find out one day'.

However, one question keeps coming back to me, which I have not found an answer for. It concerns the origins of sin. I don't consider myself a theologian so please forgive any errors.

In simple terms: I believe God made EVERYTHING. HE is the creator, and nothing exists that has not been created by God. Logic follows then, that God created sin - does it not? And if not created sin, created in man the propensity to sin - though I look at those as one and the same.

I'm always a bit depressed when preachers and writers attempt to answer 'the big questions' and examine predestination and evolution etc again and again, when for me, the question I have mentioned is the elephant in the room of my faith - which is genuine I might add.


Any help on this, or pointing in the right direction, or straightening out of wonky theology is greatly appreciated (without theology-specific words I need to look up in a dictionary).

Thanks

N

This is a great question and a thoughtful one. I've wrestled with it, especially attending calvinistic churches. I think there are christians that believe God created sin. But I also believe Genesis precludes this in one very significant verse.

Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So the question remains, how did sin then get into the world if God didn't make it? The only possible answer is libertarian free will (LFW for short). If you believe men have a non-deterministic free will, the problem is solved. If you reject free will, then you do ultimately have the problem of God becoming the author of sin, which then in turn contradicts Gen. 1:31.

I'm what you'd call a multi-determinist. This is the idea that God willfully created other beings with the power to make self-determinations. This is not to say they self-determine their existence, but rather some of the decisions they make after their existence is created by God. This is also not to say they have total freedom in all they do. It just means they have some freedoms in which they can choose between A and B of which they are responsible for.

in this scenario, the author's of sin are not God, but those whom God gave freedom to. Certainly God knew what they might do, and knew what they would do, but determined it was better to create free beings than robots.

Now again, if free will is a stumbling block to you, this wont' make sense. Science for instance, must reject the existence of free will as it must assume all things are eventually testable and repeatable, and the result of cause effect mechanisms. It's simply part of scientific uniformitarian presuppositions.

But the Bible speaks of a soul and spirit—an attribute which allows us to make actual decisions. We see this at work in the early chapters of Genesis, in Adam's fall.

 

[Clare73]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. I hope this post is in the right place. I did search for similar threads before posting but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I'll try to keep my question as brief as possible!

Basically, I certainly do consider myself a Christian, though ill admit my relationship with God is not great at the minute. Like lots of other people I have had lots of questions about God over the years, some of which I have found answers to at the time, and others that I have been happy to say 'I'll find out one day'.

However, one question keeps coming back to me, which I have not found an answer for. It concerns the origins of sin. I don't consider myself a theologian so please forgive any errors.

In simple terms: I believe God made EVERYTHING. HE is the creator, and nothing exists that has not been created by God. Logic follows then, that God created sin - does it not? And if not created sin, created in man the propensity to sin - though I look at those as one and the same.

God neither created sin, nor the propensity to sin.

He created mutable human beings with free wills and emotions.

Emotions can be powerful, but the perfect human as Adam was could control them.
However, he chose not to do so in his affection for Eve, and sinned with her.
So God didn't create sin, nor a propensity to sin, because Adam had the power to obey God, which in his free will he chose not to use.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[juvenissun]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. I hope this post is in the right place. I did search for similar threads before posting but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I'll try to keep my question as brief as possible!

Basically, I certainly do consider myself a Christian, though ill admit my relationship with God is not great at the minute. Like lots of other people I have had lots of questions about God over the years, some of which I have found answers to at the time, and others that I have been happy to say 'I'll find out one day'.

However, one question keeps coming back to me, which I have not found an answer for. It concerns the origins of sin. I don't consider myself a theologian so please forgive any errors.

In simple terms: I believe God made EVERYTHING. HE is the creator, and nothing exists that has not been created by God. Logic follows then, that God created sin - does it not? And if not created sin, created in man the propensity to sin - though I look at those as one and the same.

I'm always a bit depressed when preachers and writers attempt to answer 'the big questions' and examine predestination and evolution etc again and again, when for me, the question I have mentioned is the elephant in the room of my faith - which is genuine I might add.


Any help on this, or pointing in the right direction, or straightening out of wonky theology is greatly appreciated (without theology-specific words I need to look up in a dictionary).

Thanks

N

When God creates Adam, there was no sin. So, God does not create sin.

Adam ate the forbidden fruit. Then the sin appeared. That is the beginning of the sin. So what is the origin of sin? What made Adam sin IS the origin of sin. I think you do know what happened to Adam, right? THAT is the origin of sin.

There is God. If nothing goes against God, then there is no sin.

 

[Keachian]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. I hope this post is in the right place. I did search for similar threads before posting but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I'll try to keep my question as brief as possible!

Basically, I certainly do consider myself a Christian, though ill admit my relationship with God is not great at the minute. Like lots of other people I have had lots of questions about God over the years, some of which I have found answers to at the time, and others that I have been happy to say 'I'll find out one day'.

However, one question keeps coming back to me, which I have not found an answer for. It concerns the origins of sin. I don't consider myself a theologian so please forgive any errors.

In simple terms: I believe God made EVERYTHING. HE is the creator, and nothing exists that has not been created by God. Logic follows then, that God created sin - does it not? And if not created sin, created in man the propensity to sin - though I look at those as one and the same.

I'm always a bit depressed when preachers and writers attempt to answer 'the big questions' and examine predestination and evolution etc again and again, when for me, the question I have mentioned is the elephant in the room of my faith - which is genuine I might add.


Any help on this, or pointing in the right direction, or straightening out of wonky theology is greatly appreciated (without theology-specific words I need to look up in a dictionary).

Thanks

N

First of all just as a preliminary explanation I will be speaking from a Calvinist position,

I firmly believe that God's plan to show his full character included Sin from the very beginning, he was not surprised when Adam and Eve took the fruit, it was a part of the plan, culminating in the person of Christ and the ushering in of the New Creation upon the Cross, God's justice, his grace and mercy can only be revealed truly in light of the Cross and to a lessor extent if Sin has always been a part of the plan.

 

[Assyrian]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. I hope this post is in the right place. I did search for similar threads before posting but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I'll try to keep my question as brief as possible!

Basically, I certainly do consider myself a Christian, though ill admit my relationship with God is not great at the minute. Like lots of other people I have had lots of questions about God over the years, some of which I have found answers to at the time, and others that I have been happy to say 'I'll find out one day'.

However, one question keeps coming back to me, which I have not found an answer for. It concerns the origins of sin. I don't consider myself a theologian so please forgive any errors.

In simple terms: I believe God made EVERYTHING. HE is the creator, and nothing exists that has not been created by God. Logic follows then, that God created sin - does it not? And if not created sin, created in man the propensity to sin - though I look at those as one and the same.

I'm always a bit depressed when preachers and writers attempt to answer 'the big questions' and examine predestination and evolution etc again and again, when for me, the question I have mentioned is the elephant in the room of my faith - which is genuine I might add.


Any help on this, or pointing in the right direction, or straightening out of wonky theology is greatly appreciated (without theology-specific words I need to look up in a dictionary).

Thanks

N

Most of our sins are about desires and appetites that are good in themselves, vital to our survival as the human race, but that we pursue in circumstances we know in our heart are wrong. We want things to fulfil our needs and satisfy our hunger when we know they belong to someone else or that others will suffer if we satisfy ourselves. For example, sex and the desire for sex is one of the God's most wonderful creations, but we want it without the responsibility and commitment it brings, we desire it when it breaks the commitment we have made to someone else.

Look at what is really going on in the story of the garden of Eden. Now I believe the story is meant as a parable but it is a parable that tells us the truth about us as human beings and why we sin. People read it and blame the snake or blame the woman for being a woman. But read why she sinned, why she listened to the snake and you will see why she is just the same as the rest of us.

Gen 3:6 ESV So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.

It was her good natural appetites, appetites that were part of God's creation that led her to desire the apple and choose to follow her own human desires rather than God's call to follow him.

As someone who sees evolution as the way God created us, I have no problem in understanding how important these appetites were as we evolved that they are very good in themselves. So is the evolution of fair play and the understanding of right and wrong, even the evolution of altruism and self sacrificial love that leads creatures to lay down their lives to protect their young or to defend other in their pack. This is all part of God's very good creation.

We are creatures God has made in his image, ones he has given a higher calling to, and we fail. But we were never meant to be able to answer God's higher call out of our own ability, through our own righteous effort and works. That was never God's plan. God's plan from the beginning was always that we would be redeemed and transformed through Jesus' death and resurrection on the cross.

This works just as well if you take Adam and Eve as real human beings rather than a parable, the first people to meet with God, the first to receive a direct command from him, and as all human being since, failed and sinned.

Hope this helps.

 

[juvenissun]

Most of our sins are about desires and appetites that are good in themselves, vital to our survival as the human race, but that we pursue in circumstances we know in our heart are wrong. We want things to fulfil our needs and satisfy our hunger when we know they belong to someone else or that others will suffer if we satisfy ourselves. For example, sex and the desire for sex is one of the God's most wonderful creations, but we want it without the responsibility and commitment it brings, we desire it when it breaks the commitment we have made to someone else.

Look at what is really going on in the story of the garden of Eden. Now I believe the story is meant as a parable but it is a parable that tells us the truth about us as human beings and why we sin. People read it and blame the snake or blame the woman for being a woman. But read why she sinned, why she listened to the snake and you will see why she is just the same as the rest of us.

Gen 3:6 ESV So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.

It was her good natural appetites, appetites that were part of God's creation that led her to desire the apple and choose to follow her own human desires rather than God's call to follow him.

This gives us a question: Why would there be something which is obviously beneficial to us but is not approved by God?

 

[Assyrian]

This gives us a question: Why would there be something which is obviously beneficial to us but is not approved by God?

It is how and when we get it that is the problem.

 

[Tigger45]

Narcotics are beneficail when properly administered by a doctor. {Try getting a simple cavity filled without a pain killer}. But when left to our own devices narcotics will take everything we have. Family, friends, finances and live. Sex is beneficail within the whole counsel of God but out side of that STD's, abortion, poverty, gangs and teen suicide increase greatly. God only wants the best for us.

 

[juvenissun]

It is how and when we get it that is the problem.

No. That is not a problem.

Take it this way: We all got it, it is a matter of when would it surface. And I think it is not an important question.

 

[Assyrian]

No. That is not a problem.

Take it this way: We all got it, it is a matter of when would it surface.

I think you have changed the 'it'.

And I think it is not an important question.

Fair enough

 

[elopez]

In simple terms: I believe God made EVERYTHING.

Whenever this statement is made I have to question it. Did God make buildings, cars, or houses? No. Humans made those things. Granted we can say that without humans being ultimately being created by God those things wouldn't exist, which at best accounts God for being an indirect cause of those things.

My point is that humans make things of which we cannot say God is responsible for in a direct sense.

HE is the creator, and nothing exists that has not been created by God. Logic follows then, that God created sin - does it not? And if not created sin, created in man the propensity to sin - though I look at those as one and the same.

My house exists and it was not created by God. God did not come down to this space and physically build this house. It would be poor logic, then, to think God creates literally everything. So, it would not necessarily follow at that point that God created sin.

First, sin is not something physical, like my house or the materials of my house, that could be created. It is the result of an immoral action against the will of God. Second, to say God creates sin is even more illogical considering that, as that would have to mean that God participates in an immoral action against His own will.

Thinking God created sin has no theological advantages but only disadvantages, and makes a sham of what the Bible actually says of God's nature.

 

[gabrielj]

this logic is even worse then ^^^

if you stop at my farm( the only farm in the world) and buy flour sugar and eggs that i grew and bake a cake with it... it would seem safe to say that i didnt make the cake but you couldnt have made the cake with out the materials that came from me... same goes with the car, it was made of materials that God provided...just not the shape... be he did make the laws that allow it to perform incluing combustion,momentum and ect... not to mention the creativity that he gave you ( that comes from his image as the ultimate creator)

and thats not even the point ...the car, the house or the cake.. isnt inherhiently against the nature of God
and you cant make a car out of materials that werent created... which goes back to the original question where did sin come from
some one said God seperated stuff from the abyss.. isnt abyss just figurative for nothing.. if God is omnipresent that means he is everywhere... including the abyss that may or may not exist


as far as the original sin... which correct me if im wrong but satan already had created it and spread it to adam

i look at sin and evil alot like dark and cold
they dont really exist, dark is a lack of light and cold is a lack of heat and sin was an action that contained a lack of good or Godliness

perhaps at the time every other action possible was good except this one and maybe there was some substance contained in the fruit scientifically that caused our bodies to be open to diseases that we otherwise were impervious to

 

[mark kennedy]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum. I hope this post is in the right place. I did search for similar threads before posting but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I'll try to keep my question as brief as possible!

Basically, I certainly do consider myself a Christian, though ill admit my relationship with God is not great at the minute. Like lots of other people I have had lots of questions about God over the years, some of which I have found answers to at the time, and others that I have been happy to say 'I'll find out one day'.

However, one question keeps coming back to me, which I have not found an answer for. It concerns the origins of sin. I don't consider myself a theologian so please forgive any errors.

In simple terms: I believe God made EVERYTHING. HE is the creator, and nothing exists that has not been created by God. Logic follows then, that God created sin - does it not? And if not created sin, created in man the propensity to sin - though I look at those as one and the same.

I'm always a bit depressed when preachers and writers attempt to answer 'the big questions' and examine predestination and evolution etc again and again, when for me, the question I have mentioned is the elephant in the room of my faith - which is genuine I might add.


Any help on this, or pointing in the right direction, or straightening out of wonky theology is greatly appreciated (without theology-specific words I need to look up in a dictionary).

Thanks

N

I think I know what the problem is, your thinking of sin as something, in and of itself. Sin is that lack of something, the New Testament calls it righteousness which is based on the nature and character of God. Adam and Eve were innocent but the question you have to ask yourself is were they righteous? If they were they would have trusted God and refused to go against His will.

I could break down the word both in the New Testament and the related terminology from the Old Testament witness and will if you like. However, I don't want to get 'wonky' with the terminology sending you scrambling for a lexicon. What I think is important to understand at this point is that God's standard is based on His divine attributes and eternal nature. This can't be imposed on you against your will, you have to choose to receive it. Adam and Eve refused it, that's not something God created but rather a choice they made, pure and simple.

We still have that choice before us, life or death, sin or righteousness:

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:15-18)​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

This gives us a question: Why would there be something which is obviously beneficial to us but is not approved by God?

I actually struggled with this one for a while, of course God wants us to have wisdom, why would it be forbidden? It seems to be that the 'and evil' is the key here, what Solomon calls evil under the sun.

I returned iand saw under the sun that—

The race is not to the swift,
Nor the battle to the strong,
Nor bread to the wise,
Nor riches to men of understanding,
Nor favor to men of skill;
But time and jchance happen to them all.
For man also does not know his time:
Like fish taken in a cruel net,
Like birds caught in a snare,
So the sons of men are lsnared in an evil time,
When it falls suddenly upon them. (Ecclesiastes 9:11,12)​

I don't think wisdom and knowledge are wrong, in and of themselves. I think the problem is what Solomon called 'evil under the sun'.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[KTskater]

I, too, have wrestled with this question. I actually spent a total of six hours one day with a good friend of mine discussing and trying to hash out this issue with our Bibles. We covered all of the solutions presented so far in this thread, but always seemed to find at least one hole in the logic or no biblical support for the conclusion.

In the end, we had to agree on these things: God is all knowing, so he knew of every choice that man would make throughout the course of history. God is all-powerful, so His will is always ultimately completed. Will and nature have to be separated for this, because God must then be able to will things that go against His nature (i.e. sin).
Because of these truths, we had to conclude that God created the world and man with full knowledge of the pain, suffering, violence and eventual damnation of many individuals that would come. He knew that your great uncle would never accept the gift that Christ offers and would be condemned. He knew that your mother would die of cancer. He knew you would have a debilitating disease. He knew about the Holocaust.
These are all things that are against His nature, but they are also things that He had to allow to pass. I've accepted that this is God's world, and however He chose to set it up is not something I can argue with Him about. He has made a way for us through Christ, and for that I am beyond grateful. I pray that I'll understand this better with age or when I get the chance to meet my Maker.