Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[strangertoo]

Mans mind replacing God, is humanism pure and simple.
Thats why some are always saying what the bible means.....instead of letting the word sink in
Just as given.
Humanism will always fail, yet it is too stubborn to quit trying. Pride goes before a fall.
The entrance of the Word gives light.

many humanists reject the obviously fake god of hypocritical religion as indeed does Jesus even when it is worldwide worship of the fake by 99.9999% of mankind converted to false worship -Rev 13:3-4

many humanists BELIEVE , have FAITH , in Love , which is God , even though they do not use the word 'God' for it because 'God' means the fake god of mass religion to almost all folks... :-

so here is God's word about this faith in Love :-

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love
...
1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

thus who do you think pleases God ? : humanists who Love but refuse to use the word 'God' - or hypocritcal religionists who say they have faith in the God of Love but continue to abuse with unloving sin all their lives ?

I think perhaps you would do well to hold your judgement and allow God His ... and perhaps read a little more in scripture about what the division of religion implies, what teh eventual unifcation of religion shows, and what Love is [for sin is NOT Love , it is the very opposite of Love].... Jesus will take NONE still sinners , all who Love perfectly [saints] :-

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

perhaps it is you who needs to study the word of God more carefully BEFORE deciding what to believe from sinners , even wait fro spirit baptism before deciding on one of countless divided mass faiths in Satan as God and Christ ?- Rev 13:3-4 ... the Truth of God is well hidden by Satan, he has had thousands of years to do so , fools the whole world... you should realise this, take far more care, not jump to conclusions.... certainly not judge others before perfecting your Love yourself [and indeed the saints know this is not the time for judgement anyway]

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello again strangertoo, I only have a few minutes to begin a response, but I will get to as much of it as I can this morning.

My apologies, but it was not meant as a 'charge'... I am no judge , nor have any desire to be one ... just here to discuss ,

This sounds rather hollow when it is followed up by such statement as...

Jesus came to save sinners, not condemn them... so you might deceive yourself less by appending 'yet' to your statements:-

...and...

deceiving yourself, but not me...

...and...

so if you believe the bible you have is the canon, you are deceived by Satan, it simply is untrue...

...but that's okay. I am used to it, and take no offense. However, I would suggest that those that say "I am not judging" should examine themselves...and see who it is that has decieved oneself.

and it is easy to make mistakes in understanding folks in this medium on the subject matter which can only largely be alluded to, never proscribed, much even ineffable...

I agree. Sometimes the words do not reflect one's emotional state. However, quite often it is unmistakable.

that's a tautology [in reverse], the Truth of Love makes God's people...

In reverse? lol

I can see you are a Universalist. And this is one of the weakest positions one could choose to subscribe to.

as Jesus says, all will accept him one day...

Well, it is true that every knee will bow and every tongue confess Christ is Lord, but...among them will be those that have not escaped condemnation.

the natural man can become spiritual by just the three baptisms...

Please name them.

There is but One Baptism unto salvation, and that is immersion into Christ.

Jesus came to save sinners, not condemn them... so you might deceive yourself less by appending 'yet' to your statements:-

All that I would change in my statement is to clarify further that only the born again are baptised with the Spirit, and they do not sit around waiting for a subsequent baptism, but filling...only. Two entirely different concepts.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This is descriptive of the redeemed, which sing a "new song."


Revelation 5

King James Version (KJV)



7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.



A universal salvation is not taught here, sorry.



Revelation 5

King James Version (KJV)



9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

again, 'damned' is a mistranslation

Why would it be a mistranslation when it was an accurate word by which to translate the original?

It speak of judgment and condemnation.

and an insult to God who judges fairly, justly, who is ready for translation, who needs more persuasion before they perfect Love in life...

You forgot...righteously.

There is an over-emphasis on love, and a disregard for not only righteous judgment, but the description found in scripture.

Again demonstrably a mistranslation ... there is no eternity of the physical , no infinity of time, and the spirit is endlessly teh same , not bound in time [which the spirit creates and thus is wholly independent of, separate from]

Now this I will cede I should have said endless. The meaning of eternal in both scripture and the time this word was used to translate it have to be viewed separately.

Just like "cool" would have to be viewed separately to gain a proper understanding. A teenager says "That is cool," and the only way we can know what he means would be the context which the word is found: The teenager jumped into the pool, and immediately said, "That is cool! I am going to get out and warm up"

The teenager jumps into the pool and says, "That is cool! I am going to do that again."

It is no different in scripture: "The redeemed have life eternal, the damned have everlasting punishment."

I'm afraid you are mistaken ... suggest that you check the source materials to see ... there are no two 'source document copies' which are the same except tiny fragments with one or two words on them...

Your position is, I am afraid, all over the place. You have both appealed to scripture as well as condemned it, leaving me the task of wading through your response and responding to both sides.

As to whether the manuscipt evidence is "the same" is hardly an issue. The evidence we do have does not contradict in such a manner that we cannot translate it into an understandable form, without bias, and then know what the intent of the manuscript evidence meant to convey.

It is not I that need to check the source material.

that is a concrete undeniable sign of editing THROUGHOUT scripture...

Incorrect.

But, I would like for you to make plain whether you have trust in any of the word of God at this point. For if you do not believe that God has preserved His word...what exactly do you base your "faith" on?


Continued...

 

[strangertoo]

I have as well, the biblical evidence that the wicked are finally destroyed rather than eternally tortured is overwhelming. Although I would say that the final destruction of the unrepentant is the punishment.

I do not see how death being denied men could allow them to be destroyed :-


Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

[Timothew]

I do not see how death being denied men could allow them to be destroyed :-


Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Only at that time. Death is not forever denied to them, and the second death is a certainty for all who reject God.

 

[P1LGR1M]

but what is even worse is the mistranslation that makes every version of the bible DIFFERENT , but even the known errors are still copied because of tradition of men , because religion cannot ever accept that it is in error, of Satan, not inspired by God's ONE Truth , which would of course unite all religion ...

Just as in my example, we can still see the majority agreement even among the different translations that are out there. And what I believe is that God can instruct His people from any of them. In other words, one could study in a NIV, KJV, NASB, et cetera, and still come to the right conclusion because they are taught by God Himself.

But what I do believe is that a rogue pattern that claims that God is instructing them that it is only they that He has given real truth to.

And for this reason they must first attack His word that their word will be better accepted.

So all that is said is measured against His word.

a very poor analogy , as anyone who has examined the doctrinal CONSISTENT nature of the errors would see straight away ...

It's a great example...lol.

Show me where "editing" has affected the doctrine of scripture and I will show where it is an interpretational error.

It always is.

The premise is faulty so the conclusion is faulty, therefore, the conclusion itself is should be revisited.

fortunately the word of God is resiliently Love

But not secluded to love. Extremism is as bad as ignorance (as in not having all the information available, not an insult).

and so scripture itself reveals the errors by simply treating it as a whole...

What scripture? Couyld you just answer that? You say scripture has been edited and untrustworthy but then say this.

?

Usually this is nothing more that saying, "You can only trust me."

something all traditions of men fight viciously against doing ,

This is just a false statement. I can give you many men that have a balanced understanding of the word and will of God having as a basis the entirety of scripture.

And most proclaim that they base their doctrine on all of scripture, but it is easy to see when one has only a "prooftext theology," as they cannot answer questions on a range of issues but are forced to remain secluded on a very small arena of theological position.

This type of theologian stands out, you know.

even torturing and executing even saints who will not conform if simple fake 'excommunication' doesn't do the trick... frankly the history of it is obscene and very far , opposite from, the Love of God...

What is nufortunate is that people make the mistake of believing that everything done "in the name of Christ"...was done by Christians.

Assumption does not just hamper the atheists.

well most of it is , but there is nothing to stop a saint explaining God's Truth ...

Most of it?

lol...sorry, can't agree.

and it is nothing like any religious tradition of sinners , which traditions all have their own versions of scripture

Do they? Mormons use the KJV, same as Fundamental Baptists. Will you still claim that you do not stand as judge?

and simply ignore all the scripture which speaks against their private interpretation ,

Put it to the test. If you will simply go back to about page fifty of this thread and answer the posts which deal with annihilation (and you remember what I said about those that are self-secluded in their doctrinal arenas?) then you can test the basis presented by one that does not trust in a translation...but believe that we should look to the original languages to better understand.


Continued...

 

[Soulgazer]

Strangertoo is correct. It is a morality issue.

Pure uncontaminated worship is emulation--- simply look to a teen and you may see whom he idolizes by the way he walks, talks, the clothes he wears and whom he hangs with.

Quite obviously no one could emulate God until the image of God walked in the flesh;
Those that are of low understanding historically have typically said "I asked myself what would Jesus do; so I set his ass on fire and sent him to Hell".

Now, you may disagree, as you obviously do, but when I think of Christ, I think of a loving teacher who hated only those that didn't love. Those that burned others at a stake were emulating a false image perpetuated by those that "knew he was a hard man".

 

[P1LGR1M]

pushing their revised words set in place instead of the Truth of God [of the original scripture and the original meanings and allusions in the original language]

Getting hung up on translations is no excuse. Do what the translators did...lol.

Is this not what bible students usually do?

simple logic PROVES that DIVIDED religion is false ,

A blanket condemnation of all the faiths in the world will not change the fact that among many groups are those that belong to the Lord. Doctrinal flawlessness is not a prerequisite of salvation.

as at most one 'interpretation' of scripture even could be TRUE

This I would agree with. However, it would be safe to assume that even among the groups there are those that are right about this, those that are right about that, but...there is a majority conclusion concerning salvation in Christ.

There is a difference between interpretation and translation, in regards to the translations such as KJV, NIV, et cetera. One will interpret what they read in one of those translations, and that they are all in disagreement is nonsense. THere are, like in the example given, differences in different places, but, one can read any of them and come to the same conclusion. This can be seen in those that read different translation yet come to the same conclusions as those reading different translations.

and men disagree right down to individual beliefs they call 'faith' ... that means the whole world is deluded by religion ,

It does? How so? Again the differences between "faiths" are not always that different, and there is never a majority difference.

But you will not learn this until...you talk to them, not at them. lol

as Jesus says will happen -Rev 13:3-4 -

While we could give a general application to this verse, it is, without question, a Tribulational passage.

Not a proof-text for Universalism.

and he even gives us the figures [Rev 7:3-8] which work out at about two thousand following Jesus at any one time...

[confirmed in Jude 1:14] ... one in three million alive today,

No, He doesn't. lol

He tells us that 144,000 of Israel will be sealed at this time.

and the rest sinners following Satan, not Christ , but many of them saying they are following Christ [as sinners , even as 'sinner priests ' ,an oxymoron... a sinner cannot be a priest ... yet we even have paedophile sodomites as mock priests today... and they defended by the hierarchy of their priesthood all the way to the 'top' which is a man or founder , in place of Christ ['antichristios'] ...

Instead of continually pointing fingers, instead talk to them. THere are Catholics here...have you asked them if those priests represent their own beliefs and practice? To condemn all Catholics because of the actions of a small number of men that claim to be Christ's, I would recommend instead an understanding that those priests are most likely tares.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

as Jesus says he will lead his church of saints ALWAYS , he never gave anyone any role as leader of his church in his place...

Just not true. The Church has in place those that lead. But I guess one that decides for himself which scriptures are true and which aren't can easily discard the many passages that speak about leadership and discipline in the Body.

so the evidence is written in countless different versions of scripture and none of them tied to the original by any saint ever ...

Laughable. Really.

and only a saiint of God [not the fake one's ordained by sinners] , baptised of the spirit, would know ...

This I agree with.

no amount of words or fake authority of 'scholarship ' can restore the original scripture ...

There are many "scholars" that would disagree, lol.

But more interesting is you have destroyed any reason for you to actually give scripture as a basis.

Nothing can be trusted, remember?

nor is there any need, for all who are of God are taught directly by God ...

And God has always pointed to His word...He does not exclude that.

And He teaches discernment through this study, by which we can sort through the many claims given by those that would usurp the scriptures with their own words.

Jesus never had anything written down for that very reason :-

DId He not read...from the word of God?

Did He not quote...the word of God?

More importantly, did He not...fulfill the word of God?

Really...


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Okay, enjoyed it, I will have to get back to this.

Hope everyone has a blessed day.

God bless.

 

[jakael02]

You all hear about that neuroscientists that had a NDE of Heaven? (Opposite of Hell of course, so slightly off tread subject) It's pretty interesting.

Neuroscientist Sees 'Proof of Heaven' in Week-Long Coma - ABC News

 

[P1LGR1M]

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Still does not apply to everyone. This refers to the disciples, and betond that, all who receive the Spirit through salvation.

religion is thus just a load of hot air

Depends on what kind of "religion" it is:


James 1:26-27

King James Version (KJV)


26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



Not all "religious activity" is bad.

conveying Satan's deception that he is the God of men, that one can sin all one's life and be saved effortlessly just by saying one has faith that he is God ... a fake Christ...

There is no deception...Satan is the god of men.

Until they are saved, that is.

But there is no question that except a man worship the God of the Bible, he worships Satan or demons:


2 Corinthians 4

King James Version (KJV)


1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



1 Corinthians 8

King James Version (KJV)



4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

As for me, I trust that God has preserved His word, even as He said He would.

You are mistaken, God never said any such thing about the written word , else we should have the ORIGINALS and all copies would be identical and all translations would be the same in sense at least ...

Because we know the Lord has preserved His word, because our faith is in His word, that the "original manuscripts" have passed awayt does not mean that His word has. We have His word on that:


Matthew 5:18

King James Version (KJV)


18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


The "jot" and "tittle" makes it clear the written word is in view.


In a familiar parable, the Lord states:

Luke 8:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.



We can trust the word of God.

the faith of this whole world is in Satan according to Jesus -Rev 13:3-4 , only about one in three million alive today escape the delusion of mass religion [finally united in worship of a fake god, a false Christ , witha false gospel ,

The strong delusion will take place in the Tribulation. While it is true that Christians are said to be the few among the many, not sure I would agree with such statistics as these. In the Tribulation, maybe, but I have faith that the Lord is merciful and there are more true believers in the world than this at this time.

fake new covenant,

Do tell.

I absolutely love discussing the New Covenant.

unholy days in place of God's memorials to His Plan, sinner priests over large congregations of sinners, hu8ge cathedrals and fancy churches full of gold and idols and riches whilst the poor starve in misery to death , 50,000 a day , mostly the very little children Jesus said men would hurt only at their great cost in woe]

?

I would just suggest that enmity towards group be set aside, that kind of thing will eat one up. You might be surprised if you take the time to talk to some of these people.

Do those that do not believe scripture to be valid also take it on faith that they have the "truth?" Of course.

fake argument my friend... you simply assume the answer and then regard it as true...

It is a valid argument and a point ceded by one who rejects scripture in this thread. I was surprised, but at least it leads me to believe the man is honest.

deceiving yourself, but not me...

Perhaps I am self-deceived, but...there is only one way to find out: measure what I say by scripture.

there are about two thousand alive now following Jesus who know the Truth from God Himself directly ...

Right.

The Lord promised several things: He would teach us; He would lead and guide us; He would never leave nor forsake us.

Claims of "inside information" are usually followed by many people upset because they have been bilked out of money, have been abused, or there have been deaths.

they indeed know the fakery of scripture by mass religions for sake of not admitting the mistakes and being discredited...

Look, textual criticism is, in my opinion only, a valid science. However, what one concludes from the evidence we have is usually a matter of their beliefs. I haoppen to think that the scholars that have concluded that 99.99% of the original writings have been reclaimed.

The example I gave you shows some of the challenges faced with such an effort, and a couple of reasons why someone would want to discredit the word of God would be...

They are not believers (and want an excuse not to obey).

They want people to believe their word over the word of God.

They have read scripture, did not understand it, and rather face the fact that they are natural, rather than spiritual, they are forced to discredit it.

That would be my guess, anyway.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

but what is amazing is how few even read scripture and use it to see through the lies...

I would agree with this, but how can you condemn scripture and appeal to it is amazing. Surely you see the conflict that arises?

Let us instead try a few objective tests of what you claim [hoping I have not misunderstood or made a mistake again in this]:-

Mark 14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

Do you understand the real gospel ? Was this ever preached to you before today so you understand what the Christ is by the true gospel ?

Right.

Let me give you a biblical definition of The Gospel, if you don't mind:

1 Corinthians 15

King James Version (KJV)


1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



This is why so many say, "The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ." Of course it includes more, but we can say that this is...The Gospel.

All else is another gospel.

And notice that The Gospel is according to the scriptures.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

so count with me , how many nights between Good Friday and Easter Sunday [in any and all calendars /systems of mankind's perverse timekeeping systems] ?

Well, my friend, it would depend upon whether you were from the north...or the south, lol. You see, Jews in northern Palestine calculated days from sunrise to sunrise, Jews in the south calculated days from sunset to sunset. The Last Supper, then, would have taken place on Thursday. It was a legitimate observation according to the Law. That is the conclusion I have come to in what I have found so far, though my Pastor believes it was a Wednesday, and the calendar I'm told shows that particular day on a Wednesday, but I have not taken the time to verify that. If he is right about that then there is no problem getting three literal days and nights. I think he believes this (and he may be right, I haven't looked into it) because just like you, it sounds, have to see the Lord's statement fulfilled with "three days and three nights," whereas I take the view that all that is necessary is make a correlation between the two events as "like" Jonah was in the fish's belly," not with a focus on three days and three nights. In other words, His death, burial, and resurrection would like Jonah's in the sense that Jonah went down...and came back up.

One question I would ask those that have a focus on this would be concerning this statement:


Matthew 24:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



Is the Lord saying He will come in the form of lightning when He returns?

now look at your CANON ... and read your bible to find out how many books it authorises as scripture which are not there [about twenty ]

You will have to clarify whether you mean there are twenty in the canonized books I accept (66) that are in there and shouldn't be, or that there are twenty missing?

It makes little difference, though I would definitely be wary of those that say the former, because I have read in all of these and have not found anything that I see contradicts.

so if you believe the bible you have is the canon, you are deceived by Satan, it simply is untrue...

Right.

Quite a charge. Can you back that up with anything other than the charge itself? What you have given thus far is just not going to cut it.

proving that ANY religion which claims that the bible is the canon of scripture is of Satan...

Right.

Yet you quote scripture to proof-text this message that you have received directly from the Lord. Has anyone actually bought into this, strangertoo?


Galatians 1:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

there are many more valid PROOFS in scripture, I just mention a few here in case your mind is open...

"Many more," lol, I am still waiting for one.

Okay, got through this one. Look forward to talking with you strangertoo.

God bless.

 

[strangertoo]

I would suggest that those that say "I am not judging" should examine themselves...and see who it is that has decieved oneself.

if you feel that the scripture gives you a judgement of yourself, then that could be a good thing if you listen to the judgement of the word of God advising one... but 'shooting the messenger' is a vain mistake ,please do not ascribe to me what God inspires in the scripture , I only pointed at what the saints and prophets seem to say ... take it up with God if you don't measure up to or agree with what God says , it is not my judgement , but His , that is contained in His scripture which is essentially what we discuss here [not one another, which is against the rules]...

I can see you are a Universalist. And this is one of the weakest positions one could choose to subscribe to.

You cannot possibly see that , for I am not, but it is sad that you imagine it ... as for weakness, you mistake Love at face valuing as weakness when it is the greatest strength there is , proves itself in the end :-

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Well, it is true that every knee will bow and every tongue confess Christ is Lord, but...among them will be those that have not escaped condemnation.

First examine the mistranslation of 'judgement' as 'condemnation' and realise that God [unlike yourself above] does not pre-judge , simply judges progressively who is ready for translation, who needs more persuading to try Love in place of sin... thus God 'ratchets' men away from sin as they turn to Love until all have abandoned Satan completely , and then the piteous broken deserted creature is forced to accept that he is no god , even the prodigal son of perdition learns that God is right in the end , as I see you agree with above...

There is but One Baptism unto salvation, and that is immersion into Christ.

I suggest you read about the three baptisms in scripture ... we cannot get far in discussion if you don't read and know the scripture , here's a starter then :-

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

I find it unbelievable that you have never heard of baptism of the spirit and baptism in water and so would realise that are integral to the unique baptism into Christ that is the only ONE way to salvation... but there are countless many folks who have never heard of baptism of fire, because religious tradition is taught by sinners, and saints are all taught by God Himself in spirit baptism [John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11]

So perhaps you do not realise that the Love of those who are His saints is TRIALLED by 'fire' of temptation to see if would-be perfect saints still have any desire in their hearts to abuse with sin...

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

but what about this scripture that you never troubled to understand ?

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth
...
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

note that , as with Jesus, baptism of FIRE is usually to the death [BLOOD = the life sacrificed] for saints... those still choosing to sin at all are rejected by Jesus [explanation- e.g.Ezek 18:24] :-

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

All that I would change in my statement is to clarify further that only the born again are baptised with the Spirit, and they do not sit around waiting for a subsequent baptism, but filling...only. Two entirely different concepts.

It is perhaps easier to follow the scriptural way than make up one's own concepts and find the hard way that they are mistaken... God says nothing about "sitting around" ... all saints have an exacting set of tasks set by Jesus which consumes all their time , unless you wish to observe that they do periodically go away alone to meditate and pray to God , as Jesus did and said to do [not pray in public as sinners do to no effect whatever except to be one with the crowd of sinners who cannot know God until they stop sinning or after death as death frees men from sin -Rom 6:7] ...

 

[strangertoo]

Only at that time. Death is not forever denied to them, and the second death is a certainty for all who reject God.

surely if death is denied then death is denied ... there can be no second death AFTER death is denied , so the second death is BEFORE death is denied...

so there is no annihilation... and there is an END [Jesus tells us he is that END] ...

thus there is no way out of life AND death except translation to the spirit to be one with God... which can only happen after all THREE baptisms , the last one being baptism of fire [and the last baptisms of fire are in the lake of fire]

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[strangertoo]

Originally Posted by strangertoo

Why do you not realise that God Himself personally teaches all who are His ?
​

Please go back and reread the post, strangertoo...you will not see me saying this.

What I did say was this:

Originally Posted by strangertoo http://www.christianforums.com/style...s/viewpost.gif

God can and will show all folks the Truth -Joel 2:28,​

Correction...

Joel 2:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


...God will show His people the truth. And while there will be those who "come" to the knowledge of the truth, that does not mean they embrace it.

​

agreed , but I am unsure why you raise this point

Originally Posted by strangertoo http://www.christianforums.com/style...s/viewpost.gif

John 16:13,​

John 16:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



Again, this does not teach that "God will show all folks the truth."

It speaks of believers and if we go through John 13-17, we will see it speaks of a future fulfillment, namely, to begin at Pentecost.

again agreed, but to what relevance ? ... I have never denied either of these points ... they are red herrings here although interesting in their own right, why do you raise them ?

Now, before you charge one with something they have not said, be more careful in your reading.

I don't see what you think you have been 'charged with' ?

 

[strangertoo]

But that's the problem. I don't see a contradiction to eternal hell in the poorly translated bibles that the people who believe in eternal hell quote

well, start with Rev 20:13-14 ...all are released from hell and it is destroyed along with death [the only way to get to hell] in the lake of fire

so how could it be eternal ? it is emptied and then destroyed once it is past its use-by date , men are denied death, so denied hell :-

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

then, just to check, look at what Jesus says , that he is the END and everyone will accept his Law of Love when he rules [in the kingdom come]

so how can hell go on after the END when everyone has accepted Jesus [thus repented , had their spirit baptism, and been TRIALLED to prove their Love is not fake...] ?

 

[Timothew]

surely if death is denied then death is denied ... there can be no second death AFTER death is denied , so the second death is BEFORE death is denied...

so there is no annihilation... and there is an END [Jesus tells us he is that END] ...

thus there is no way out of life AND death except translation to the spirit to be one with God... which can only happen after all THREE baptisms , the last one being baptism of fire [and the last baptisms of fire are in the lake of fire]

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

The verse says "During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them."

"During those days". I believe it is stretching this verse too far to say that death is forever denied to everyone. I don't know how the other verses contribute to your idea. Death is only denied to these people at this particular time. Death is not forever denied to them, and the second death is a certainty for all who reject God.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello again, strangertoo, thank you for the response.

if you feel that the scripture gives you a judgement of yourself,

I don't "feel" that scripture brings judgment on the heart of man...I know it does.

But that was not what was in view in my response, surely you know this. Nevertheless, no point wasting space. If you did not see your statements as judgmental, nothing I can say will change that.

then that could be a good thing if you listen to the judgement of the word of God advising one...

I do the best I can.

but 'shooting the messenger' is a vain mistake ,please do not ascribe to me what God inspires in the scripture , I only pointed at what the saints and prophets seem to say ...

Have you not boasted there are only about two thousand people alive today that follow the Lord?

there are about two thousand alive now following Jesus who know the Truth from God Himself directly ...

The implication being that you are one of them?

As far as you being a messenger, first, your message must follow the once delivered faith. Secondly, I have not "shot anyone," but have examined the very message they bring...two entirely different issues. Third, instead of trying to point at what the word seems to say...stick with what you know it does say.

take it up with God if you don't measure up to or agree with what God says ,

You have yet to show where in even one point I am in disagreement with what the Lord has said. You ignored much in my post, strangertoo, have you asked yourself why that is?

it is not my judgement ,

I showed your "judgment." No point in going over it again.

but His ,

And I have shown where your doctrine is, in my view, contrary to scriptural teaching. This is of course just my view, but I have given you ample opportunity to respond to my view. And continue to do so.

that is contained in His scripture which is essentially what we discuss here [not one another, which is against the rules]...

lol...okay, strangertoo.

You cannot possibly see that , for I am not, but it is sad that you imagine it ... as for weakness, you mistake Love at face valuing as weakness when it is the greatest strength there is , proves itself in the end :-

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Not only can I see it, but everyone sees it, strangertoo:

surely this scripture shows that there is no final death , no annihilation

so all are translated to spirit free of death [saved] at the end of time in the next universe [new heavens and new earth] , just as Jesus was translated some time after resurrection to the flesh [he never died a second death]

just as Enoch was translated and never died at all :-

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
__________________

Again we see a hodge=podge mixture of context seeking to fortify this position.

First examine the mistranslation of 'judgement' as 'condemnation'

Okay, you had opportunity to do just that...why didn't you? Is it because you noticed that judgment and condemnation are used to properly translate the original words?

and realise that God [unlike yourself above] does not pre-judge ,

Does He not? Does the Omniscient God not know in advance what will happen, and state exactly that in His word?

Jude 1

King James Version (KJV)



4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.



Revelation 17:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



That is just a start on the judgment that is already in place. One more for now, perhaps:


John 3:18

King James Version (KJV)


18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

simply judges progressively who is ready for translation,

And just like your statements that "God can and will show all folks the Truth," and that "so all are translated to spirit free of death [saved] at the end of time in the next universe" broad-brush the teachings of scripture, even so here it is implied that all undergo a progressive sanctification.

And again, this process occurs only in the lives of the born-again.

who needs more persuading to try Love in place of sin... thus God 'ratchets' men away from sin as they turn to Love until all have abandoned Satan completely , and then the piteous broken deserted creature is forced to accept that he is no god , even the prodigal son of perdition learns that God is right in the end , as I see you agree with above...

And I agree with this for the most part, as long as believers and unbelievers are distinguished, the former being instructed, the latter...blind to the truth.

And not to be on topic or anything, but you do not distinguish between the judgment of condemnation that is already upon natural man and results in eternal separation from God. You can, if you like, replace the word eternal with endless if you would rather not use a generally accepted term found in the KJV.

I suggest you read about the three baptisms in scripture ... we cannot get far in discussion if you don't read and know the scripture , here's a starter then :-

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Just to at least keep the context of our discussion clear, here is what was said:

the natural man can become spiritual by just the three baptisms...

Please name them.

There is but One Baptism unto salvation, and that is immersion into Christ.
​

And I would point out that once again you merge the teachings of scripture in order to fortify your own beliefs, rather than keeping the context in place. Let me attempt to respond to what you say here, and we will begin with the erroneous teaching that scripture is teaching the believers will be baptized with the Holy Spirit...and fire.

The passage:


Matthew 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

This is a baptism, a washing...unto repentance. It is an outward expression of a profession of repentance from dead works. John is clear that there are those that come who by their deeds do not outwardly express what they profess.

And he rebukes them for their hypocrisy:


7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Well known to Israel is the wrath of God. Well known to Israel is a foundational principle of resurrection and judgment.

Well known to John is the inclination to believe one's heritage (and position) are thought to guarantee spiritual well-being.



10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


John speaks of judgment using terminology we are all familiar with, and that is fire. His command to bring forth good fruit to example true repentance is followed by stating clearly that those that do not...will be cut down and cast into the fire.

Or in other words, receive eternal judgment, rather than justification.

He then turns attention to Christ:


11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Two baptisms are mentioned: that the Baptizer will baptise with the Holy Spirit and He will Baptize with fire.

Now in all that John has just proclaimed, please explain how it is that believers will be both baptized with the Holy SPirit, and...be baptized with fire. That they will receive the Spirit of God and then be cast into the fire.


We see that judgment is in view in the next verse also...

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.



Those baptized with the Holy Spirit will be "gathered into His garner," and those that are baptized with fire will be burned up with unquenchable fire."

Now, strangertoo, I would ask that you answer this response directly, if you do not agree with my assessment of what is taught here.

I will also ask you to show how this passage teaches we can then take other passages concerning the testing of the saints and merge them, that we can establish three baptism by which "the natural man can become spiritual by just the three baptisms... "


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

I find it unbelievable that you have never heard of baptism of the spirit and baptism in water and so would realise that are integral to the unique baptism into Christ that is the only ONE way to salvation...

And I find it typical, as in most of these conversations concerning the eternal punishment of the wicked...that false charges abound.

I find it typical that when one errs on one point it usually leads to many errors because the first error must of course revise other teachings in order to make the first error seem reasonable.

Water Baptism is an outer expression of obedience, even as the washings of the Law were.

John knew that this baptism he preached unto repentance was a visible expression of what the one baptized professed, and he recognized those that he knew had not repented.

Peter makes it clear that water baptism does not cleanse the heart:


1 Peter 3:21

King James Version (KJV)


21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Baptismal Regeneration is a false doctrine.

What scripture does teach is that salvation is of the heart, not in an outward practice:


Romans 2:25-29

King James Version (KJV)


25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Paul uses the imagery of circumcision, which is the equivalent in the Law to Christian Baptism, to illustrate that performing this ritual does not change the heart. And that is what God teaches in His word, that it is the heart of man that is in view...not his works. Because one can perform good works and their heart still not be right with God.

It is no different for the Christian faith: one can sit in the pew, learn the concepts, learn the lingo, and give a great outer show, but the inner man remain unchanged.


28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



The term Jew can be seen to be equivalent to our name...Christian. We can substitute these words and place them into the framework of the Covenant we are under. The Jew under the First Covenant is in view here. But we can also say...


For he is not a Christian, which is one outwardly; neither is that Baptism, which is outward in the flesh:


But he is a Christian, which is one inwardly; and Baptism is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


...that the Christian under the New Covenant is in view in the New Testament.

In other words, when one is Baptized by Christ into the Body, it is a spiritual work dealing with the heart of man, not the filth of the flesh, as it was under the Law. The Law should have been the cleansing agent, not the baptism/washing. The inner work should have been done before the outer expression was undergone. In other words, those who went to John's baptism should have already have been brought to repentance, then baptized to show that this work had taken place. Like wise, those who undergo Christian Baptism should already have the spiritual work take place, that they are born again, and when they are water baptized, illustrate their association with Christ's death (the old man dies), burial (they go into the grave, and water is a much easier medium to illustrate this, as it would be difficult to place people under dirt and then bring them back up, not to mention the spiritual cleansing that it should illustrate would be marred by dirty people coming back up), and resurrection (they come up out of the water (grave)).

In salvation we see repentance, belief, faith. These things are heart issues. The cleansing that the washings of the Law could not do, Christ's sacrifice and the new birth can:


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)


1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.




1 Corinthians 6:11

King James Version (KJV)


11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



Continued...