• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Afterlife burden of proof

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
I want to make quite sure I understand you here...

You are saying the only thing I can be sure exists is my brain and sensory receptor. I perceive the world through my senses, which sends 'data' to my brain.

I never once used the word "brain" in that context, I used "mind." For mind you could substitute something like "psyche," "consciousness," "awareness of oneself and one's surroundings" or something to that effect. Most physicalists agree the mind is something we can talk about as distinct from the grey organ in our skulls.

Receptor? I said the only things we can be sure of are that our own minds and sensory information exist. However, after seeing how bogged down this thread was getting over that comment I wish I hadn't. From this point on, this thread is only for people who accept these three things:

1. Minds (plural) exist, and our thoughts aren't being fed to us by anything external to our minds (such as an evil genius with mind control technology).

2. Sensory information exists.

3. The universe exists (either as data or as something other than data).

Note: It says MINDS exist, not BRAINS. If you are a reductionist who believes self awareness or consciousness is only an illusion, and that we do not actually have awareness of our existence/surroundings, (in effect that minds don't exist), that is beyond the scope of this thread so you're excluded.

If I see a table, the table actually only exists as 'data' traveling from my eyes to my brain and not as an actual independent object as and of itself. Have I got it right so far?

No. Everything in our universe is only data, including our eyes, brains, minds and the table. If by "actual independent object" you mean it exists as something other than data, then there are no actual independent objects in our universe, and the universe itself is not an actual independent object.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Right. And the assumption that our thoughts aren't being fed to us is more or less held by everyone who doesn't wear a tin foil hat at all times. This thread can't move forward unless three things are accepted. I accept all three of these despite me mentioning solipsism in the OP (big mistake):

1. Minds (plural) exist, and the thoughts aren't being fed to us by anything external to our minds.

2. Sensory information exists.

3. The universe exists (either as data or as something other than data).

Fair enough. What was your original point then?

The idea that our minds created an illusionary universe doesn't make any sense to me at all. I don't even see how that would work and I'm not arguing that. This is about the nature rather than the origin of the universe. I'm trying to keep speculation about the origin of our universe out of this.

:thumbsup:

Discrete (or digital) information which is a series of bits. What I mean by a bit is one of two states like 1 or 0, yes or no, on or off.

I don't see what reason there is to think that. You could be right, but I doubt anyone knows.
 
Upvote 0

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
There are still many mysteries surrounding brain function, including the still elusive nature of consciousness. One of the most recent advocates of a materialistic approach, the rabid atheist Daniel Dennett, wrote a book called Consciousness Explained, but even fellow evolutionists have called it Consciousness Ignored. In fact, many evolutionary experts in the area admit that consciousness is a huge mystery for evolutionary theory. E.g. Richard Gregory, evolutionist and professor of neuropsychology and director of the brain and perception laboratory at the University of Bristol in England, explained the dilemma in the book Consciousness :

If the brain was developed by Natural Selection, we might well suppose that consciousness has survival value. But for this it must, surely, have causal effects. But what effects could awareness, or consciousness, have?

Why, then, do we need consciousness? What does consciousness have that the neural signals do not have? Here there is something of a paradox, for if the awareness of consciousness does not have any effect—if consciousness is not a causal agent—then it seems useless, and so should not have developed by evolutionary pressure. If, on the other hand, it is useful, it must be a causal agent: but then physiological description in terms of neural activity cannot be complete. Worse, we are on this alternative stuck with mentalistic explanations, which seem outside science.

The materialists teach that our consciousness is really an effect of our brain responding to external stimuli via the laws of chemistry. But this belief itself is merely the result of neural chemistry. Therefore according to their own belief system, they did not freely reason out their belief according to the evidence. Rather, they believed their theory because they couldn’t help it—it was predetermined by brain chemistry. But then, why should their neurons be trusted over mine? They both obey the same laws of chemistry.

In reality, those who assert that consciousness is just an epiphenomenon of the brain do so because of their materialistic philosophy that clouds the interpretation of the evidence. For example, Dennett admits that he can’t disprove the existence of a mind distinct from the brain, but asserts that such a view ‘is fundamentally unscientific’ and ‘is to be avoided at all costs’. In reality, materialism is an assumption before they even consider the evidence.

It seems philosophically unsound to attack a belief system by appealing to observation-based arguments which deny a priori the validity of that system’s own presuppositions. In other words, one would need to disprove the idea of the Christian God in order to deny the possibility of the survival of the persona after death. To use the apparent disproof of such survival to cast doubts on the validity of belief in the Christian God is thus seen to be a fairly subtle, but definite case of the philosophical fallacy known as ‘begging the question’.

The evidence for such things as fulfilled prophecy, the resurrection of Christ, and creation itself is freely available for all with a desire to see. The evidence of changed lives is another.

Some have experienced the reality of the supernatural realm in a way that defied all explanation by way of subjectivity, psychology, etc. and totally defied the laws of physics, mathematical probability, etc. It is not something of the nature of so-called ‘after death experiences’, which can never be proved to be anything more than a person’s brain chemistry under those conditions.

You and Dr. Carl Wieland should have lunch. You guys think alike. Exactly alike, word for word.

Brain chemistry and the fate of the personality after death
 
Upvote 0

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
Fair enough. What was your original point then?

The solipsism part was just a preamble to my argument proper. I thought it would be useful to start by discussing the most extremely skeptical position imaginable before dialing it back to what I am actually arguing but I was wrong. I was so wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
The solipsism part was just a preamble to my argument proper. I thought it would be useful to start by discussing the most extremely skeptical position imaginable before dialing it back to what I am actually arguing but I was wrong. I was so wrong.

Well to reply to your first post again: I don't know what happens after I die, but appears that I will be gone forever.
 
Upvote 0

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
I don't see what reason there is to think that. You could be right, but I doubt anyone knows.

Whether or not the information making up our universe is discrete or continuous is debatable but I don't want to argue that it's discrete with people who don't believe our reality is informational in the first place. As I've already pointed out, one piece of evidence that proves matter is informational is the double slit experiment. I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question:

How does a single particle go through both slits and interfere with itself?

Here is how I answer it. Reality is a probability distribution and the random variables are determined by certainty. Generally, if there is high certainty about something then there is a low probability of a random outcome and if there is low certainty about something then there is a high probability of a random outcome. However, in either of these cases, anything can happen. That is, something can happen even though the odds against it happening are millions or billions to one, but if the odds against it happening are 'gazillions' to one, it may be 'possible' but for all intents and purposes it would never happen.

So, here are examples:

-There is a Shakey's Pizza Parlor somewhere and everyone knows where it is. There is high certainty about its location. If you go to where it's suppose to be, there is an extremely high probability it will be there. The probability is extremely low that the restaurant will have mysteriously vanished or moved 30 feet or that there will inexplicably be two Shakey's right next to each other.

-You are certain that your hand is located at the end of your arm. You look to where your hand is suppose to be and you see it's there. The odds that it will have vanished, or changed into a tentacle, or that there will be two hands at the end of your arm are extremely low.

-You are firing single particles at a double slit apparatus and you have no idea which slit the particles are going through. Since there is no certainty about which slit these particles are going through, all potentialities are realized. There is absolutely no certainty so anything can happen and it does. Some of the individual particles go through both slits and interfere with themselves, causing an interference pattern on the screen.

-You are in a park playing fetch with a dog. You repeatedly throw a tennis ball into the same patch of grass and each time the dog retrieves it. Then, you throw the ball and you see it bounce and land in that patch of grass as it has on every other throw, then glance away while the dog runs to the patch of grass to retrieve it. Your gaze returns to the patch of grass and you see that the dog is down there running around in circles with his nose to the ground looking for the ball but can't find it. You think this is odd so you go down there to investigate. The ball isn't there and the dog is confusedly looking at you. You spend the next 40 minutes searching a 100 square foot area with its center right where you saw the ball land. You are looking for any holes in the ground or anything that can explain the disappearance of the ball but you don't find it. You know the dog hasn't swallowed it and are convinced it has disappeared but how is that possible?

Well, after you saw the ball land you glanced away from it. Doing this introduced enough uncertainty into the situation to allow its disappearance. The odds were still millions or billions to one that the ball would be where you threw it. However, this ball wasn't that important. It wasn't evidence in a murder case or anything like that and you have no proof that it disappeared i.e. you didn't have a video camera rolling on that patch of grass. So, it disappeared. Things like that can happen and it has happened and it does happen. But seeing is believing. Maybe someday you will have an experience like this then you will know.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
These have been termed "spandrels" by the biologist Stephen Jay Gould, and I believe that is exactly what consciousness is. It is merely a byproduct of a complex brain, but was itself not the adaptive advantage being selected for. As such, it does not have adaptive value

Sheer observation, demonstrates that consciousness has adaptive value
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Whether or not the information making up our universe is discrete or continuous is debatable but I don't want to argue that it's discrete with people who don't believe our reality is informational in the first place. As I've already pointed out, one piece of evidence that proves matter is informational is the double slit experiment. I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question:

Well I'm not sure what you mean when you say the universe is informational.

How does a single particle go through both slits and interfere with itself?

I don't know, but this would seem to be a question for science.

Here is how I answer it. Reality is a probability distribution and the random variables are determined by certainty. Generally, if there is high certainty about something then there is a low probability of a random outcome and if there is low certainty about something then there is a high probability of a random outcome. However, in either of these cases, anything can happen. That is, something can happen even though the odds against it happening are millions or billions to one, but if the odds against it happening are 'gazillions' to one, it may be 'possible' but for all intents and purposes it would never happen.

Well is what you are saying much different from quantum theory? I just don't know what it means for the universe to made up of a abstract concept like 'information'.

So, here are examples:

-There is a Shakey's Pizza Parlor somewhere and everyone knows where it is. There is high certainty about its location. If you go to where it's suppose to be, there is an extremely high probability it will be there. The probability is extremely low that the restaurant will have mysteriously vanished or moved 30 feet or that there will inexplicably be two Shakey's right next to each other.

-You are certain that your hand is located at the end of your arm. You look to where your hand is suppose to be and you see it's there. The odds that it will have vanished, or changed into a tentacle, or that there will be two hands at the end of your arm are extremely low.

-You are firing single particles at a double slit apparatus and you have no idea which slit the particles are going through. Since there is no certainty about which slit these particles are going through, all potentialities are realized. There is absolutely no certainty so anything can happen and it does. Some of the individual particles go through both slits and interfere with themselves, causing an interference pattern on the screen.

-You are in a park playing fetch with a dog. You repeatedly throw a tennis ball into the same patch of grass and each time the dog retrieves it. Then, you throw the ball and you see it bounce and land in that patch of grass as it has on every other throw, then glance away while the dog runs to the patch of grass to retrieve it. Your gaze returns to the patch of grass and you see that the dog is down there running around in circles with his nose to the ground looking for the ball but can't find it. You think this is odd so you go down there to investigate. The ball isn't there and the dog is confusedly looking at you. You spend the next 40 minutes searching a 100 square foot area with its center right where you saw the ball land. You are looking for any holes in the ground or anything that can explain the disappearance of the ball but you don't find it. You know the dog hasn't swallowed it and are convinced it has disappeared but how is that possible?

Well, after you saw the ball land you glanced away from it. Doing this introduced enough uncertainty into the situation to allow its disappearance. The odds were still millions or billions to one that the ball would be where you threw it. However, this ball wasn't that important. It wasn't evidence in a murder case or anything like that and you have no proof that it disappeared i.e. you didn't have a video camera rolling on that patch of grass. So, it disappeared. Things like that can happen and it has happened and it does happen. But seeing is believing. Maybe someday you will have an experience like this then you will know.

People lose things. That doesn't prove that large objects just disappear.
 
Upvote 0

Lord Emsworth

Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves.
Oct 10, 2004
51,745
421
Through the cables and the underground ...
✟76,459.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
A lot of people say the burden of proof is on the person claiming there is an afterlife. I beg to differ. The burden of proof is on the person claiming there is NOT an afterlife.

There is one thing and one thing only that requires no faith at all - that each of us can KNOW beyond any doubt: that our own mind exists (see note at bottom) and has access to sensory information. Solipsism. Whether or not other minds exist is a matter of faith. If you believe other minds exist you are a faith-based believer in something unproven.

Everything you experience as other minds can merely be part of the sensory information you have access to. Would Occam's razor lead one to conclude other minds exist? I don't think so. Occam's razor is about making the fewest assumptions and this doesn't have any more assumptions. For example, each of these sentences has one assumption:

-Other minds exist independently of my own.
-Other minds are merely part of my sensory information.

However, if you don't find solipsism plausible then you have to have faith in something, i.e. that other minds exist independently of your own. Most of us BELIEVE (rather than know) other minds exist. So most of us are believers in something that is unproven.

OK, that's other minds but what about matter? Well, there is no evidence it exists as anything other than data. We don't have any experience with matter. Our only experience is with sensory information. Occam's razor doesn't lead to the conclusion that matter is anything other than data. These two sentences have the same number of assumptions:

-Matter exists as something other than data.
-Matter exists as data only.

You are just tossing around some words. You are just trying to tuck different labels onto that which will ultimately remain the same. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. And it is similar with "matter". And with "mind", since we are at it.


So, we do have proof that mind exists. The proof is that we're able to think and know we exist. On the other hand, we don't have proof that matter exists as anything other than data. So you can't say the existence of something we know exists (mind) is reliant on something that we only assume exists as something other than data (matter).

Does the fact that if someone suffers brain injury it will have an effect on the person's mind prove that mind is reliant on matter? Not at all. It only proves there are rules in our reality and I don't deny this.

Reality? What reality are you talking about? Be careful with the assumptions.


And ... Not so fast here:
"So, we do have proof that mind exists. The proof is that we're able to think and know we exist."

We have no evidence that your mind is able to think and know that it exists without a brain. If you want to be ultra-strict, then please tread slowly.

What we are/have is in fact some thinking entity. And we also know that this entity can function better or less well depending on ... well, what precisely?


Note: If you have a reductionist argument that mind/self awareness is only an illusion, your argument assumes matter exists. However, there is no evidence that matter exists as anything other than data. So that is why I say we can know for sure our minds exist, at least until information comes along that proves matter exists as something other than data.
 
Upvote 0

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
Well I'm not sure what you mean when you say the universe is informational.

It's made of bits.

I don't know, but this would seem to be a question for science.

I'm asking it of people who say there is no evidence our reality is made of information, which is similar to asking a flat-earther how someone can head west and eventually arrive where he started without ever turning around and heading east.

Well is what you are saying much different from quantum theory?

No it's not much different. I was talking about quantum mechanics but what is your point? That these things don't apply at the macro scale of everyday objects? Then how do we get the classical world out of the quantum world? I have already answered this. The difference is in the degrees of certainty.

I just don't know what it means for the universe to made up of a abstract concept like 'information'.

Within the context of a video game, from your perspective as a player in control of a character, you know what it means for the world of the game to be made up of information. Well, it's very similar to that. The big difference is that we know the origin and underlying mechanism behind the world of the video game whereas with our own universe we don't.

People lose things. That doesn't prove that large objects just disappear.

I know, but for a physicalist, large objects are made up of small objects. The double slit experiment is scientifically reproducible and it proves that small objects just disappear. Some of the particles fired at the double slit apparatus go through neither slit. We know this because we know how many particles were fired and how many of them have made it to the screen. There should be a 1:1 ratio but there isn't.
 
Upvote 0

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
You are just tossing around some words. You are just trying to tuck different labels onto that which will ultimately remain the same. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. And it is similar with "matter". And with "mind", since we are at it.

You're right that it doesn't change anything as far as our day to day experience goes. Neither would the concept of a spherical earth have changed people's day to day experience in the 6th century BCE. Also, in practice, it changes very little of our current science. As far as pragmatic physics it doesn't 'matter' if matter is virtual or actual.

The only things different in science are some areas of theoretical physics. You don't need string theory with this because it explains how we get the world of everyday objects out of QM. But that is fine because they have been working on string theory for about 20 years now and getting nowhere with it. There is also no need to posit parallel earths or doppelgangers in order to explain QM, which is a good thing.

I think it has implications when it comes to traditionally spiritual matters so that's different. Survival of the mind upon death becomes possible whereas with a physicalist model it's not.

Reality? What reality are you talking about? Be careful with the assumptions.

The one we're experiencing.

And ... Not so fast here:
"So, we do have proof that mind exists. The proof is that we're able to think and know we exist."

We have no evidence that your mind is able to think and know that it exists without a brain. If you want to be ultra-strict, then please tread slowly.

What we are/have is in fact some thinking entity. And we also know that this entity can function better or less well depending on ... well, what precisely?

I agree that we have no (scientifically reproducible) evidence that the mind can exist without a brain. However, when you have information rather than matter as the ground of all being it makes it possible. My argument has always been that Afterlife isn't impossible, not that Afterlife is true. The reason it's possible is because the mind and the brain are both made of ones and zeroes. So death can be leaving part of your data behind rather than the end of your existence.

And before I forget. Afterlife? Is this also part of the odd reality the rules of which your mind adheres to?

This is pretty abstract. What's up with 'life' in Afterlife being in italics? Are you saying the word Afterlife is a misnomer? If so is "continuation of the mind upon death" acceptable to refer to that philosophical concept? Afterlife is catchier.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
People lose things. That doesn't prove that large objects just disappear.

P.S.

Lets put it this way. If you were alone, placed an apple on a table, looked up at the ceiling for a split second and then back to the table and the apple wasn't there anymore, you wouldn't describe that as 'losing' the apple so I don't know why you would describe the tennis ball example that way.

This would be proof for you personally that large objects just disappear. Of course no one else would believe you. They would say that the apple MUST have rolled off the table and under the couch, that you didn't hear it fall, etc. But they would be wrong. That's all I was saying. Naturally, this wouldn't prove to society that large objects disappear, only to you.

However, as I mentioned, society does have irrefutable proof that small objects disappear and according to physicalists, large objects are made out of small objects, so to me, that is just as good.

To tell you the truth, I know for a fact that large objects disappear because the tennis ball story is true and happened to me, not that I expect anyone else to believe I'm correct in my assessment of what took place that day or that I'm not lying about it.

Off topic speculation follows: This is sort of a rule. It seems there is some rule in effect that ensures people can believe what they want. You will hear about paranormal stuff all the time but as soon as anyone tries to verify it or prove it scientifically there will be no evidence or a person or phenomenon will be discredited in some way, casting doubt on the whole thing. But apparently, there is no problem with everyone knowing that small particles disappear in the double slit experiment because it happens every time and is absolutely reproducible.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
It's made of bits.

Well maybe it is, but maybe it is more continuous than on or off.

I'm asking it of people who say there is no evidence our reality is made of information, which is similar to asking a flat-earther how someone can head west and eventually arrive where he started without ever turning around and heading east.

What?

No it's not much different. I was talking about quantum mechanics but what is your point? That these things don't apply at the macro scale of everyday objects? Then how do we get the classical world out of the quantum world? I have already answered this. The difference is in the degrees of certainty.

I don't know if I have a point other than that I see no reason to think the universe is digital rather than analogue.

Within the context of a video game, from your perspective as a player in control of a character, you know what it means for the world of the game to be made up of information. Well, it's very similar to that. The big difference is that we know the origin and underlying mechanism behind the world of the video game whereas with our own universe we don't.

But the information of the video game exists on our computers. In the real world there is nothing beyond it for the information to be on.

I know, but for a physicalist, large objects are made up of small objects. The double slit experiment is scientifically reproducible and it proves that small objects just disappear. Some of the particles fired at the double slit apparatus go through neither slit. We know this because we know how many particles were fired and how many of them have made it to the screen. There should be a 1:1 ratio but there isn't.

Maybe it is possible for large things to work by quantum mechanics, but it is probably so rare that no human has seen it happen, if it has ever happened.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
OK, you're right, "burden of proof" is the responsibility of the person making the positive claim and I wasn't thinking in terms of positive claims vs. negative claims, just claims. For example, these sound like positive claims to me:

-When you die it's the end for you.

-Mind is an emergent property of the brain and ceases to exist when bodily processes stop.



All the evidence we currently have, shows that both these points are correct.
 
Upvote 0

Gracchus

Senior Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
7,199
821
California
Visit site
✟38,182.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question:

How does a single particle go through both slits and interfere with itself?
If it is at rest relative to an observer, it is a particle, but if it is in relative motion it has wavelike properties, more pronounced as it approaches the speed of light. The wave passes through both slits. But Feynmann showed that you can treat it as a particle if you assume it that takes all possible paths, and sum them. (See his book "Q.E.D.") Then you get the same result. The truth seems to be that you can treat it as a wave or a particle, as convenient, and get the same results. One or the other might give simpler math, but produces the same result. The reality is not particle or wave.

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." --- widely attributed to Richard Feynmann

:wave:
 
Upvote 0

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
If it is at rest relative to an observer, it is a particle, but if it is in relative motion it has wavelike properties, more pronounced as it approaches the speed of light. The wave passes through both slits. But Feynmann showed that you can treat it as a particle if you assume it that takes all possible paths, and sum them. (See his book "Q.E.D.") Then you get the same result. The truth seems to be that you can treat it as a wave or a particle, as convenient, and get the same results. One or the other might give simpler math, but produces the same result. The reality is not particle or wave.

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." --- widely attributed to Richard Feynmann

:wave:

If a particle is in motion there is uncertainty about it's location so it behaves like a wave. The reason it's said to behave "like" a wave and not that it IS a wave fitting this definition…

Dictionary.com:
wave   [weyv] Show IPA noun, verb, waved, wav·ing.
noun

11. Physics . a progressive disturbance propagated from point to point in a medium or space without progress or advance by the points themselves, as in the transmission of sound[bless and do not curse]or light.

…is because in this case it's a wave of probabilities. In other words, it's a probability distribution. So if there is no certainty about the location of a particle, because it's in motion, it's a probability distribution. When it's at rest, and there is certainty about its location, we perceive it as a particle (matter).

Well, this proves my point that what we perceive as matter is in fact data, specifically, a probability distribution, AT LEAST until there is certainty about its location.

So how do we get matter out of data? We don't! It's still data. The only difference is that now it's data that we can treat as matter.

Think of it this way. If you are playing a video game, only what your character is looking at any one time is being rendered for you. Lets say your character is facing away from a tree. The tree is data but isn't presently being rendered for you. Now you spin your character around and point its eyes at the tree. Now the tree is being rendered for you but it's still only data.

That this is how it works in our reality is the only logical conclusion that I can see. It's illogical to think that solid objective matter can temporarily become something as incorporeal as a probability distribution and then become matter again. It must be data every step of the way.

Do you agree? If not, why?
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That this is how it works in our reality is the only logical conclusion that I can see. It's illogical to think that solid objective matter can temporarily become something as incorporeal as a probability distribution and then become matter again. It must be data every step of the way.

Do you agree? If not, why?

George, george, george of the jungle - what out for that .... data??

Somehow I think not.

How many homeruns did Hank Aaron hit with a piece of data? You are questioning reality. That way lies madness.
 
Upvote 0

nebulaJP

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2011
688
51
✟23,663.00
Faith
Taoist
Marital Status
Single
But the information of the video game exists on our computers. In the real world there is nothing beyond it for the information to be on.

You're saying there is nothing outside of our universe. How do you know that? Like I said before, I don't want this to turn into a debate about the origin of our universe. This is about the nature of our universe. If the discussion is about the origin it will just be a lot of speculation and that's beyond the scope of the thread. I'm using video games as an analogy. It's not a perfect analogy because, as I've already said, we know the origin and underlying mechanism behind the world of the video game whereas with our own universe we don't.
 
Upvote 0