The law (Ten Commandments only) must be abolished!

[Harry3142]

Elder III-

You can't separate The Ten Commandments from the other laws of Torah. Those sects which claim to have separated them have only done so in order to place their own laws in the place of the original laws in order to 'fill out' the meaning of The Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments are part of a set of laws that contain 613 different laws in all. But by themselves they are 'bare bones' commandments. That's why the other laws were necessary in order to define precisely what was meant. As an example we'll take the law against murder (the sixth commandment). Did that mean that they couldn't fight wars against those who attacked them? No, it did not. Instead, it simply meant that they couldn't take the life of one of their countrymen unless their life, or a fellow citizen's life, was in danger due to that person's aggression.

Those sects who claim that The Ten Commandments do stand alone, seperate from all the other laws and commandments of Torah, are quick to also say that their membership is to follow those commandments as the leadership of their sect has interpreted them. All they've done is to play wordgames. Instead of calling what they've added to those commandments 'laws', they've simply called them 'interpretations'. But in actuality they have made these words synonymous.

 

[bugkiller]

So then Jesus is not quoting the law (10 Cs) as some here claim. If that is the case Jesus is not refering to the stone tablets. What then is Jesus refering to?

bugkiller

 

[Elder 111]

Elder III-

You can't separate The Ten Commandments from the other laws of Torah. Those sects which claim to have separated them have only done so in order to place their own laws in the place of the original laws in order to 'fill out' the meaning of The Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments are part of a set of laws that contain 613 different laws in all. But by themselves they are 'bare bones' commandments. That's why the other laws were necessary in order to define precisely what was meant. As an example we'll take the law against murder (the sixth commandment). Did that mean that they couldn't fight wars against those who attacked them? No, it did not. Instead, it simply meant that they couldn't take the life of one of their countrymen unless their life, or a fellow citizen's life, was in danger due to that person's aggression.

Those sects who claim that The Ten Commandments do stand alone, seperate from all the other laws and commandments of Torah, are quick to also say that their membership is to follow those commandments as the leadership of their sect has interpreted them. All they've done is to play wordgames. Instead of calling what they've added to those commandments 'laws', they've simply called them 'interpretations'. But in actuality they have made these words synonymous.

Bro Harry
Correct me where I have erred.

1. God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments on stone. Moses broke them but still God insisted on writing them Himself the second time.He did not do that with the other laws.
2. God Spoke them Himself from the mount instead of letting Moses carry the message. Was that the case with the other laws?
3. God instructed that the ten commandments be placed in the ark, which is called the ark of the testimony, under the mercy seat (where God would be between the Cherubims). In other words they were under His throne. That was not so with the other laws.
4. God said that the whole structure, that is the sanctuary, was a pattern of what He showed Moses (These things maybe found in Ex. 25).
5. Then we see that the original is in Heaven. So that the pattern spoken of was the real and actual one in Heaven. (Heb. 8:1-2, 9:11.)
6. Since the earthly Sanctuary was a pattern and indeed a copy Of the heavenly even with a High priest then the original would have the same furniture and items. Except of course they would be real such as the angels and God Himself.
7. John verifies this also. Most of all he see the ark of the testimony ( which contains the Ten commandments) in the temple in Heaven. Rev 11:19 and 15;5.

Still think the Ten commandments is just like all the Mosaic laws? You think that God hold the Mosaic laws as the foundation of His throne as He does the Ten commandments? Do you really believe that they are thew same?
Note this also, that Dan 7:25 states that he shall think to change times and laws. You know why? Because he can not move God, that is what it will take the remove or abolish God's Ten Commandments.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Elder111, I replied to your post from the Ellen White on the sabbath thread here.

 

[InSpiritandTruth]

So then Jesus is not quoting the law (10 Cs) as some here claim. If that is the case Jesus is not refering to the stone tablets. What then is Jesus refering to?

bugkiller

Good day . To me, Jesus is referring to the oral interpretation of the commandments. I may be wrong, but that is how I see it. You cannot have Jesus saying, God said this, but I say this. They are one, and a house divided against itself cannot stand.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Good day . To me, Jesus is referring to the oral interpretation of the commandments. I may be wrong, but that is how I see it. You cannot have Jesus saying, God said this, but I say this. They are one, and a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Would OC Herod's Temple be considered a house?

Matt 23:37 `Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.
38 Behold! left desolate/a wilderness to you is your house;

Revelation 14:8 And another messenger did follow, saying, `Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great City, because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.'

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!.............

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins
and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy

 

[bugkiller]

No not at all. It is a different covenant being preached. That new covenant is 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt...Jer 31

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1

bugkiller

 

[Elder 111]

No not at all. It is a different covenant being preached. That new covenant is 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt...Jer 31

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1

bugkiller

There were lies and works before Christ?
God is the same always and the means of salvation changes?
God did not know that the could not save?
God did not know that the people could not keep it?
It is God's fault then?

 

[Harry3142]

Elder III-

When Jesus was asked which was the greatest commandment, what did he reply? He said, "Love God" (Deuteronomy 6:5) and "Love your neighbor" (Leviticus 19:18b).

When Jesus was tempted by Satan to turn stones into bread, what did he reply? He said, "Man shall not live by bread alone" (Deuteronomy 8:3).

When Jesus was tempted by Satan to throw himself off the temple, what did he reply? He said, "Do not test the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 6:16).

When Jesus was tempted by Satan to worship him in order to obtain all the nations of the world, what did he reply? He said, "Serve God only" (Deuteronomy 6:13).

In Mark 7:20-23 Jesus is quoted as saying that adultery made us 'unclean'; he also said that sexual immorality made us 'unclean.' What was his definition of what constituted sexual immorality? It was Leviticus 18:1-30.

The two most important commandments according to Jesus Christ himself are not found anywhere in The Ten Commandments. We have to find them elsewhere in Torah. As well, the commandments which he used in his battle against Satan are not found in The Ten Commandments. We have to find them elsewhere in Torah. So again I say that we cannot separate The Ten Commandments from the other laws of Torah. They cannot stand alone. And whenever I have encountered sects which claimed otherwise, it soon became apparent that they themselves had replaced the other commandments of Torah with their own laws and commandments in order to 'flesh out' The Ten Commandments.

 

[Elder 111]

Elder III-

When Jesus was asked which was the greatest commandment, what did he reply? He said, "Love God" (Deuteronomy 6:5) and "Love your neighbor" (Leviticus 19:18b).

When Jesus was tempted by Satan to turn stones into bread, what did he reply? He said, "Man shall not live by bread alone" (Deuteronomy 8:3).

When Jesus was tempted by Satan to throw himself off the temple, what did he reply? He said, "Do not test the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 6:16).

When Jesus was tempted by Satan to worship him in order to obtain all the nations of the world, what did he reply? He said, "Serve God only" (Deuteronomy 6:13).

In Mark 7:20-23 Jesus is quoted as saying that adultery made us 'unclean'; he also said that sexual immorality made us 'unclean.' What was his definition of what constituted sexual immorality? It was Leviticus 18:1-30.

The two most important commandments according to Jesus Christ himself are not found anywhere in The Ten Commandments. We have to find them elsewhere in Torah. As well, the commandments which he used in his battle against Satan are not found in The Ten Commandments. We have to find them elsewhere in Torah. So again I say that we cannot separate The Ten Commandments from the other laws of Torah. They cannot stand alone. And whenever I have encountered sects which claimed otherwise, it soon became apparent that they themselves had replaced the other commandments of Torah with their own laws and commandments in order to 'flesh out' The Ten Commandments.

Harry
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Jesus depended on other laws and commandments other than the Ten commandments. You do realize that all that you have quoted existed with the ten Commandments. So why is it now a crime that the same ten commandments continue now?
All that you have highlighted are covered by the Ten commandments anyway. For Instance, the temptation to worship satan, is that cover by thou shall have no other God before Me?
Another thing I have not seen you reply to my post to you. Can you do that? You can also let me know why the ten commandments is so detrimental to Christians.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Harry
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Jesus depended on other laws and commandments other than the Ten commandments. You do realize that all that you have quoted existed with the ten Commandments. So why is it now a crime that the same ten commandments continue now?
All that you have highlighted are covered by the Ten commandments anyway. For Instance, the temptation to worship satan, is that cover by thou shall have no other God before Me?
Another thing I have not seen you reply to my post to you. Can you do that? You can also let me know why the ten commandments is so detrimental to Christians.

Good question!

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The ten words (commandments) carry an enduring message about right living both towards God and towards one's neighbour. Because of this the same message is present in the new testament with the exception of the 7th day as a day of rest. The reason for the absence of the 7th day as an obligation for Christians is that it, of all the ten words, was of mixed liturgical and practical purpose. It is significant that the 7th day obligation is not laid on gentile Christians in any of the new testament writings while the other nine are all laid on both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ - as well as the commandments to love God and neighbour and to love one's brother and sister as Christ has loved you.

 

[Elder 111]

The ten words (commandments) carry an enduring message about right living both towards God and towards one's neighbour. Because of this the same message is present in the new testament with the exception of the 7th day as a day of rest. The reason for the absence of the 7th day as an obligation for Christians is that it, of all the ten words, was of mixed liturgical and practical purpose. It is significant that the 7th day obligation is not laid on gentile Christians in any of the new testament writings while the other nine are all laid on both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ - as well as the commandments to love God and neighbour and to love one's brother and sister as Christ has loved you.

Conclusion then.

1. We have nine and not ten commands.
2. You said what no one else is saying. No one has said that the commands still stand (except for SDA's)
3. I will not deal with the Sabbath hear. You are dealing with that.

You are not correct but your reply is more honest than all others who want to be rid of the law. There is nothing wrong nor was it changed or abolished. No scripture speaks to it. Yes many are sited but are misunderstood and misinterpreted. It is totally illogical to tell a man that he should not and cannot steal ect. and tell him in the same breath that the law stating that he should not steal is abolished.
It is also totally illogical to have God condemning me or anyone for sin when sin is a transgression of a law that does not apply. How ridiculous can we be.
I pray someone's eyes opens.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Conclusion then.

1. We have nine and not ten commands.
2. You said what no one else is saying. No one has said that the commands still stand (except for SDA's)
3. I will not deal with the Sabbath hear. You are dealing with that.

You are not correct but your reply is more honest than all others who want to be rid of the law. There is nothing wrong nor was it changed or abolished. No scripture speaks to it. Yes many are sited but are misunderstood and misinterpreted. It is totally illogical to tell a man that he should not and cannot steal ect. and tell him in the same breath that the law stating that he should not steal is abolished.

It is also totally illogical to have God condemning me or anyone for sin when sin is a transgression of a law that does not apply. How ridiculous can we be.

I pray someone's eyes opens.

I think all of your interlocutors are being honest - it is a little churlish of you to suggest otherwise - and I think that we still have ten commandments but the 7th day is not an obligation because the rest promised in the 3rd commandment is fulfilled in Christ. We nevertheless do take a day off from our worldly work as the Lord and the apostles, by example, instruct us to do.

When you say that sin is the transgression of the law you are oversimplifying the matter because scripture also informs us that whatever does not come from faith is sin and to deal with others without love is sin too. The law plays a part in defining the boundaries beyond which conduct may be harmful to others, to ourselves, or to God's creation. The law does not play a part in obtaining or in maintaining grace. Much of the argument between the SDAs on this forum and others is about the law and grace. It is an area that Ellen White's writings obscure some and that current SDA teaching also obscures producing a degree of mistrust about what SDAs really mean when they affirm the continuing obligation of the ten commandments.

Another matter that causes some difficulty is defining what the law is, SDAs appear to equate the law with the ten commandments while scripture and the others participating in this discussion take the law to be a reference to the whole of the legal teaching of the Torah.

 

[bugkiller]

Yes there were lies before Christ and the law. Yes there were works before the law. They just were not works of the law.

Yes there were indeed works under the law and those were works of the law as mandated. Those works and the law that mandated them were only given to Israel according to the Book of the Law.

Is it suggested or being said one can be saved (possess eternal life) by the law? If that is true then Jesus work of the cross is not necessary. After all one can possess eternal life (salvation) by (the works of or obedience to) the law.

Certianly God knew the law could not save and He said so. That is what the cross is about. This was promised before the law in Genesis 3:15. Also I believe Romans 11:32 which says God committed them (Israel) to sin so He (God) could have mercy on all.

Ah Yes and No about it being God's fault. God created man (anthropos) with a free will. This allowed man to rebel. The purpose of God was to show His love without regard and have fellowship with a being that freely responds to that love.

So yes it is God's fault in creating a being with a free will.

And no it is not God's fault man is rebellious and refuses love.

bugkiller

 

[Elder 111]

Yes there were lies before Christ and the law. Yes there were works before the law. They just were not works of the law.

Yes there were indeed works under the law and those were works of the law as mandated. Those works and the law that mandated them were only given to Israel according to the Book of the Law.

Is it suggested or being said one can be saved (possess eternal life) by the law? If that is true then Jesus work of the cross is not necessary. After all one can possess eternal life (salvation) by (the works of or obedience to) the law.

Certianly God knew the law could not save and He said so. That is what the cross is about. This was promised before the law in Genesis 3:15. Also I believe Romans 11:32 which says God committed them (Israel) to sin so He (God) could have mercy on all.

Ah Yes and No about it being God's fault. God created man (anthropos) with a free will. This allowed man to rebel. The purpose of God was to show His love without regard and have fellowship with a being that freely responds to that love.

So yes it is God's fault in creating a being with a free will.

And no it is not God's fault man is rebellious and refuses love.

bugkiller

I have never understood anyone here to be saying one is saved by the law!
All that have to happen is that you say law and others say works. In that case you also seek salvation by works.
The one that say the ten commandments is still binding and does not steal would be as you are who does not steal either. So if he does it by works so do you.
We know that no man can do the things of God without the Spirit of God, so if the man who says the ten commandments is binding do the things required there in, it is by the Spirit of God. You on the other hand says there is no ten commandments binding do the things of the ten commandments (unless you are a liar adulterer and idolater ect.)need to do it by the same Spirit.
Question still remains. What is the problem with Ten commandments observance? I did not say for salvation, repeat I did not say for salvation or a means of salvation.

 

[x141]

Where did the law proceed from ... and what makes it sin and death to us ...

The law comes in many forms and is a common thread that leads to a cross. This is the cost to build the house and to remove the perception of lack. There is only one river as there is only one Father who fills everything everywhere with himself.

Jer_23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Gen_3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

 

[bugkiller]

Is it being said that one can say they exhibit love towards an individual and also steal from them? How preposterous can it get?

bugkiller

 

[Harry3142]

Elder III-

First, the foundation of God's throne is God himself, rather than any set of laws. As well, in my reply to you I made it clear that in order for The Ten Commandments to be carried out as God intended the Hebrews to carry them out, they had to have the other laws of Torah to 'flesh them out'.

Also, where is sexual immorality in The Ten Commandments? I first read them before many of the people on this forum were born, and I have yet to see any injunction against homosexuality, fornication, bestiality, having relations with our fathers' wives, or marrying close relatives. The only sexual injunction in The Ten Commandments forbids adultery specifically, so without Leviticus' laws acting independently of The Ten Commandments, none of the other sexual indiscretions should be disapproved of.

As for loving God's being in The Ten Commandments, you're trying to read something into them that isn't really there. The first three commandments are more inclined to instill fear rather than love. Left to themselves there is nothing to indicate that God would even want our love, but only our obedience, which was more often than not obtained through the use of fear and terror.

Also loving our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18b) is neither implied nor inferred in any of The Ten Commandments. Instead, the commandments tell us, "Keep your hands off other people and their possessions." But there it ends. Again, we must look to an independent source in order to place 'love' into the societal equation.

And all too often sects which demand that we keep The Ten Commandments as they have interpreted them do not want anyone to read the verses that come before the listing of The Ten Commandments:

Moses summoned all Israel and said:

Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our fathers that he made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) (Deuteronomy 5:1-5a,NIV)

What follows are The Ten Commandments themselves being recited. This Scripture passage tells us that those commandments were intended for a specific group of people, namely, the Hebrews alive at that time. They weren't even applicable to their ancestors, but began with them. I don't know about your ancestors, but mine were in northern Europe at that time. So the laws which were specific to the Hebrews wandering through the Sinai desert make for good reading material, just as The Code of Hammurabi, which preceded the laws of Torah by centuries, makes good reading material. But there it ends.

I'm a Christian, not a Jew. I respect the Jews, and consider it as antisemitic when a sect tries to convince us that it was their ancestors, rather than the Abrahamites (another word for Jews), who were given the laws at Mt. Sinai, and so should be seen as 'the chosen people'. But the laws I accept are to be found in the New Testament as part of the New Covenant, rather than in the Old Testament as part of the Old Covenant. Where Jesus or his apostles repeated a law that is to be found initially in Torah, then that specific law is to be seen by Christians as still important. But concerning those laws which they did not repeat, I consider them as null and void.

 

[dreadnought]

Firstly I must ask that this not be made into a Sabbath tread. Forget about the Sabbath if you can.
It seems to me that Christians are advocating that they are better off without the Ten Commandments.
Paul made the point that the law is Holy, Just, Good and spiritual. (Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Read from verse 7-14)
Are these not characteristics of God? Jesus said God that was the only one Good Mat. 19:16. God is just Isa 45:21 Deut. 32:4. God is holy PS. 99:9 and Joshua 24:19. God is Spirit John 4:24.
In light of the fact that the law reflects God's character, how then is it good to have it abolished?
Is it not a rejection of God and His character if His law is nullified?
As a reflection of God's character would not the law be from everlasting to everlasting as He is? Ps. 90:2

The Ten Commandments are for our benefit. When we disobey them, life gets painful, at best.