Why Religion is Bad (Seriously)

[Received]

Something cool I learned in graduate school: mediator and moderator variables. The first explains, like a stepping stone, two other variables -- e.g., the "real cause" behind a correlation, or another causal variable when we expect causation to take place between two things. Moderator variables are like moderators in politics (how they should be): they determine how loud or soft things are.

So, there's this really smart guy at my church. He used to go to a typical fundamentalist Southern Baptist church. He left because they asked him to step down from a Sunday school teaching position he held for years because of an (intelligent, articulate, well-written) article submitted to the local paper integrating theism and evolution.

That made me think.

It's not religion in itself that's bad. It's the religions, and religious sects and denominations in particular, that swerve a level of intellectual intolerance. That's the problem. Put more complicatedly, critical intolerance (i.e., the tendency against free thought) moderates fundamentalism, and the closer you are to fundamentalism, the more likely you are to do really bad things. Now, it's also not fundamentalism itself that is necessarily bad, but this in turn is determined by what your fundamentals are.

I think a lot of the screeds against "religion in general" fails to appreciate that it's religion moderated by intolerance that's the problem, and these are two independent variables that come together, or moderate, one another.

 

[Paradoxum]

I'm not against religion so much as the anti-truth and anti-morality that comes from religion. I consider my former faith to have been a beautiful thing, and growing up in that community helped me alot.

Nevertheless, I think falsity leads to immorality. If you believe in souls, an afterlife, an infallible book, etc, and those things don't exist, then it will make your moral decisions very misinformed.

So I think you can have moderate-liberal faith and have a true and moral understanding of the world. Belief in God doesn't seem to be a problem. Choosing speculation over reason and evidence is the problem.

 

[sandwiches]

I am pretty much with Paradoxum. I am against religion because it promotes a certain kind of "lazy reasoning." And because our beliefs and understanding inform our actions, this can lead to many immoral and misinformed actions.

 

[Received]

Is there something inherent to religion that promotes intolerance for reasoning?

I think what I'm saying is that religion is one thing, and intolerance is another thing, which may often be associated with *certain sects* of certain religions, but it doesn't jive to say that religion in itself causes intolerance.

If religion does intrinsically cause intolerance, what parts about it do? Perhaps you could say that faith causes rational intolerance. If that's the case, how are there incredibly smart and open-minded people who have faith but are still reasonable? Moreover, "faith" is applicable to secular and religious views, and happens a heckofalot with even the most scientific-minded individuals.

 

[sandwiches]

Is there something inherent to religion that promotes intolerance for reasoning?

I think what I'm saying is that religion is one thing, and intolerance is another thing, which may often be associated with *certain sects* of certain religions, but it doesn't jive to say that religion in itself causes intolerance.

If religion does intrinsically cause intolerance, what parts about it do? Perhaps you could say that faith causes rational intolerance. If that's the case, how are there incredibly smart and open-minded people who have faith but are still reasonable? Moreover, "faith" is applicable to secular and religious views, and happens a heckofalot with even the most scientific-minded individuals.

Those smart people are only reasonable up to a point, the point where they must accept an intelligent being created the universe, the point where they describe this beings wishes, will, motivations, etc, the point where they contend that one person was god but human simultaneously, the point where they pick and choose what part of the Bible are "obviously" metaphorical or allegorical and which parts are literal, the point where they prescribe divine intervention to coincidences or other arbitrarily selected events, the point where they claim to need Christ to be saved but don't believe that Adam and Eve existed as described in Genesis, the point where they must somehow reconcile the idea that they believe in something that has no current objective evidence, no empirically documented contemporary equal, and no explanation through the nature of the observed universe.

 

[Paradoxum]

Is there something inherent to religion that promotes intolerance for reasoning?

I think what I'm saying is that religion is one thing, and intolerance is another thing, which may often be associated with *certain sects* of certain religions, but it doesn't jive to say that religion in itself causes intolerance.

If religion does intrinsically cause intolerance, what parts about it do?

Well if someone thinks some idea comes from God then it becomes unquestionable. Questioning it might even end up with someone going to hell. The idea of revealed truth is probably the problem.

Perhaps you could say that faith causes rational intolerance. If that's the case, how are there incredibly smart and open-minded people who have faith but are still reasonable?

I think such people accept that ideas about religion are fallible, and that we have to use reason and evidence to come to the truth about God.

Moreover, "faith" is applicable to secular and religious views, and happens a heckofalot with even the most scientific-minded individuals.

What do you mean by faith here?

 

[jayem]

Doctrines may be questionable. But that doesn't bother too much me when it's in the realm of individual belief. My problem is with organized religion. (And I'd include organized non-religion. If such a thing existed.) Personal faith is about psychological comfort and peace of mind. Organized religion is about power and control.

 

[jpcedotal]

well, as a fundamentalist, all I can add is that the truths and moralities in the Bible are absolutes...it is when I go out on my own and do what I feel is good is when bad things happen.

There is no progression of truth only a falling away from the absolute. Just because the world has accepted a new adapting moral code does not make the Biblical one obsolete. To me, all I have to do is step back and look at the world today. There is more free-thinking in control than ever, and the world is going down the toilet because the is no final truth only situational acceptances...and the whole time those who don't believe in Christ and the Scriptures are still blaming all this corruption on those who stick to God's Word (we are in the minority...secularism is to blame for the evil today...I think it is the fundamentalists who are keeping the bus from falling off the edge with our vote and our hardheadedness to stick to the Word...but the rope is slipping for sure.

 

[sandwiches]

well, as a fundamentalist, all I can add is that the truths and moralities in the Bible are absolutes...it is when I go out on my own and do what I feel is good is when bad things happen.

There is no progression of truth only a falling away from the absolute. Just because the world has accepted a new adapting moral code does not make the Biblical one obsolete. To me, all I have to do is step back and look at the world today. There is more free-thinking in control than ever, and the world is going down the toilet because the is no final truth only situational acceptances...and the whole time those who don't believe in Christ and the Scriptures are still blaming all this corruption on those who stick to God's Word (we are in the minority...secularism is to blame for the evil today...I think it is the fundamentalists who are keeping the bus from falling off the edge with our vote and our hardheadedness to stick to the Word...but the rope is slipping for sure.

What do fundamentalists do exactly to keep "the bus from falling off the edge?"

 

[Received]

Those smart people are only reasonable up to a point, the point where they must accept an intelligent being created the universe, the point where they describe this beings wishes, will, motivations, etc, the point where they contend that one person was god but human simultaneously, the point where they pick and choose what part of the Bible are "obviously" metaphorical or allegorical and which parts are literal, the point where they prescribe divine intervention to coincidences or other arbitrarily selected events, the point where they claim to need Christ to be saved but don't believe that Adam and Eve existed as described in Genesis, the point where they must somehow reconcile the idea that they believe in something that has no current objective evidence, no empirically documented contemporary equal, and no explanation through the nature of the observed universe.

"Up to a point."

So, are you saying it's possible for a person -- anyone, regardless of religious affiliation (or not) -- to be "purely reasonable" or "purely freethinking"? If so, what would that person look like?

 

[jpcedotal]

What do fundamentalists do exactly to keep "the bus from falling off the edge?"

by consciously putting God first as the Bible states as much as my flesh allows...by no means do I do this all the time, but I try to always stick to God's Word when it comes to voting and being a witness to others.

Christians, in general, are the light of the world and everyone keeps up with us even if it is just to catch us doing wrong. God did that to human nature. That is why non-Christians are here arguing on a Christian forum...the world is drawn to Christ, good or bad...in belief and in unbelief...

We like being the "broken record" when it comes to worldly debates, such as homo-sex and abortion and many others. Rationalizing sin is what the world is all about...we reveal the God of the universe as He resides in each of us...the unchanging Creator.

 

[Rajni]

Is there something inherent to religion that promotes intolerance for reasoning?

I think what I'm saying is that religion is one thing, and intolerance is another thing, which may often be associated with *certain sects* of certain religions, but it doesn't jive to say that religion in itself causes intolerance.

If religion does intrinsically cause intolerance, what parts about it do? Perhaps you could say that faith causes rational intolerance. If that's the case, how are there incredibly smart and open-minded people who have faith but are still reasonable? Moreover, "faith" is applicable to secular and religious views, and happens a heckofalot with even the most scientific-minded individuals.

I suspect what makes critical thinking and reasoning more difficult in a religious setting is that -- at least in the case of organized, institutional religions -- there's a code of conduct to which one is expected to adhere. The inherent groupthink creates a peer-pressure to set aside one's own independent thinking in favor of toeing the line.

All I know is that since I left organized religion, I can now freely draw my own conclusions about spiritual matters without worrying about whether the folks at church or in bible-study are going to look at me funny or attempt an exorcism.

 

[sandwiches]

by consciously putting God first as the Bible states as much as my flesh allows...by no means do I do this all the time, but I try to always stick to God's Word when it comes to voting and being a witness to others.

Christians, in general, are the light of the world and everyone keeps up with us even if it is just to catch us doing wrong. God did that to human nature. That is why non-Christians are here arguing on a Christian forum...the world is drawn to Christ, good or bad...in belief and in unbelief...

We like being the "broken record" when it comes to worldly debates, such as homo-sex and abortion and many others. Rationalizing sin is what the world is all about...we reveal the God of the universe as He resides in each of us...the unchanging Creator.

I said 'exactly.' I don't need bland platitudes. Give me specific examples where fundamentalists are helping the bus not fall off the edge.

 

[Paradoxum]

well, as a fundamentalist, all I can add is that the truths and moralities in the Bible are absolutes...it is when I go out on my own and do what I feel is good is when bad things happen.

Just because you can't make good decisions on your own doesn't mean that is the case for everyone. The Bible isn't inerrant and infallible, and since we are in the philosophy section, I hope it isn't too much to ask you to prove otherwise. Even just a simple outline of how a good argument might go.

There is no progression of truth only a falling away from the absolute.

What does this mean? Obviously we have learnt things about the world, through science, that we didn't know before. Truth doesn't change, but we learn new things.

Just because the world has accepted a new adapting moral code does not make the Biblical one obsolete.

The fact that the Biblical one has no solid basis, and that it says immoral things, makes it obsolete. The Bible is a good book, but morality can be better known through reason.

To me, all I have to do is step back and look at the world today. There is more free-thinking in control than ever, and the world is going down the toilet because the is no final truth only situational acceptances

The developed world is in a better state than it has ever been. If you think otherwise perhaps you should take a look at history. If all you think about is how dirty sex is then you might think otherwise, but if you care about important issues you will agree with me.

So many fundamentalists have such a disgusting view of the world. So negative, so hopeless. It is an insult to real people who have real problems. It is an insult to the millions of people in the past who suffered greatly (and to people who still suffer today). Our societies aren't perfect, but they are a hell of a lot better than anything else that existed in the past. If homosexuality is one of your major problems then your problems don't matter compared to the horrible things that have happened in the past, and continue to happen around the world.

So, sorry if I am being harsh, but many fundamentalists sound like children complaining that they have two cookies, not three, while other people starve to death.

...and the whole time those who don't believe in Christ and the Scriptures are still blaming all this corruption on those who stick to God's Word

All what corruption? I would think most corruption comes from human nature. Fundamentalists just slow us down as we try to heal people. Sometimes they do help of course.

(we are in the minority...secularism is to blame for the evil today...I think it is the fundamentalists who are keeping the bus from falling off the edge with our vote and our hardheadedness to stick to the Word...but the rope is slipping for sure.

Secularism is your and my freedom. If you are against secularism, then you must be ok with being controlled by sharia law, right? If you don't accept Muslims forcing their religion on everyone, then you don't get to either.

by consciously putting God first as the Bible states as much as my flesh allows...by no means do I do this all the time, but I try to always stick to God's Word when it comes to voting and being a witness to others.

God didn't write the Bible. You are no different than a Muslim saying the same thing about their holy book. We all have reason, and we must reason about what is good and bad.

Christians, in general, are the light of the world and everyone keeps up with us even if it is just to catch us doing wrong. God did that to human nature.

Christians can be loving and do amazing things, but one doesn't need religion to do those things.

That is why non-Christians are here arguing on a Christian forum...the world is drawn to Christ, good or bad...in belief and in unbelief...

I'm here because I was a Christian, and now I am recovering from it.

We like being the "broken record" when it comes to worldly debates, such as homo-sex and abortion and many others.

Your book is also worldly. Written by men on paper.

Rationalizing sin is what the world is all about...we reveal the God of the universe as He resides in each of us...the unchanging Creator.

Reason tells us what is right and wrong, and if you have no reasonable arguments to reply with, then your beliefs are without substance.

I am sorry for being harsh in this post, but I also feel strongly about morality and see fundamentalism as a corruption of it.

 

[Nooj]

I suspect what makes critical thinking and reasoning more difficult in a religious setting is that -- at least in the case of organized, institutional religions -- there's a code of conduct to which one is expected to adhere. The inherent groupthink creates a peer-pressure to set aside one's own independent thinking in favor of toeing the line.

All I know is that since I left organized religion, I can now freely draw my own conclusions about spiritual matters without worrying about whether the folks at church or in bible-study are going to look at me funny or attempt an exorcism.

Agreed. But I think that this pressure also exists in wider society. Not just pressure from outside. We all know about those. But the pressure from within. Put simply, it's easier and more comfortable to fit in, to lose yourself in the crowd.

 

[super animator]

Nevertheless, I think falsity leads to immorality. If you believe in souls, an afterlife, an infallible book, etc, and those things don't exist, then it will make your moral decisions very misinformed.

For clarification purposes are you claiming that they don't exist or just making a hypothetical situation?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I said 'exactly.' I don't need bland platitudes. Give me specific examples where fundamentalists are helping the bus not fall off the edge.

It isn't so much what fundamentalists do, it's what they are that makes the difference. "Except those days be shortened no flesh will be saved alive. But for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (and the bus won't go over the edge).

"Ye (the elect) are the salt of the earth, but if the salt (ye) loses it's saltiness (it's ability to preserve the earth) wherewith (how) will it (the earth) be salted (preserved)."

Those who cling to the fundamental doctrines of Christ are the element that, at least temporarily in these last days, causes God to withhold the tribulation.

To cite specific examples of good citizenship would only bring criticism and accusations of bragging and self-righteousness. Who needs that?

 

[Paradoxum]

For clarification purposes are you claiming that they don't exist or just making a hypothetical situation?

It is hypothetical, but I don't actually think they exist either.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

The op has a compass in his larynx.

 

[jpcedotal]

All I am saying is that as a fundamentalist I have the Word of God to fall back on anytime I am unsure about a moral issue. And from experience EVERY SINGLE TIME I make a decision that is tune with Scripture, I never regret it or look back and wished I would have done things differently.

Now I do not always make decisions based on God's Will, and those ususally are the regrettable ones...

Living for God and taking the Bible literally not only helps me make the right decision but it is also the best path...

It is my faith and there is really nothing that can be said that would sway me. When I am called close minded, all I can say is "absolutely".

Being ignorant of worldly values is a good thing. Treating world views that hide behind the science label as fiction (false religion) is a good thing. Believing God created the world is a good thing....to my God and to me.

Fundamental Christianity is all about clarity. Man, I got a peace that is unexplainable and a non-Christian will never have.